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Thread: :D Barefoot Running

  1. #21
    Senior Member Denzil's Avatar
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    Talking Re: :D Barefoot Running

    I've been trying to POSE run for the last 6 months and am finally getting the hang of it. Yes, my achilles hurt for a while whilst I was getting used to it but it has certainly helped with my knee problems.

    I try and work on quick feet lifting with the hamstring and leaning forward........... it does work !

    check out www.crossfitendurance.com and build some of their training in to your programs. (you'll also see crossfit recommend Innov8 shoes)

    Trouble with the majority of runners is that they are just runners ! They neglect other aspects of fitness. I've been running some training sessions on club nights focussing on strength, power, balance and co ordination and everyone has come back with posotive feedback saying their running has improved as a result.

    I've started running more in thinner midsole shoes and even got old trainers out which have lost their bounce! Barefoot, forefoot, Chi and POSE are bascially going back to the way we used to run thousands of years ago! Its how we were designed to work.
    If you cant change something, change the way you feel about it !

  2. #22
    Orange Pony Hanneke's Avatar
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    Re: :D Barefoot Running

    Quote Originally Posted by Inov-8 Insider View Post
    Your right, I was also very sceptical to the whole barefoot thing.
    I have over the years had lots of different shoes, numerous injuries and several pairs of orthotics trying to right my knee, ahilles , IT Band and calf problems.
    It was a physio friend who suggested that it may well be the orthotics and heavily posted road shoes that could be causing the problems.
    I read lots on barefoot running on the web.
    The thing to bear in mind is that it takes time to adjust to barefooting, I now run a couple of miles every day, very slow but concentrating on placing my feet and my posture.
    My road runs are done in F-lite 230 which are very low profile shoes.
    Fell runs are done in either X-Talon 212 minus the footbeds or Mudclaw 330.

    I'm not advocating that everyone go from wearing shoes to barefoot in one swift move but there is a place for it.
    Try it you may be suprised.

    We are looking at a few different options

    When I ran on the roads in heavily padded supportive shoes, in the end even with othotics, I always got injured... Tore my calves several times, ITBS syndrome, achilles problems, plantar fascitis, you name it and I have had the typical tarmac runners overuse injuries several times over...

    I then discovered fell running and bought a pair of Mudrocs... I even ran on the roads in them for a bit and found that I had no problems anymore whatsoever... even though I was very worried about the lack of support to begin with.

    I have since gone more minimal and all my running is either done on Flite 230's or the f-lite 230 PK on road and trail, and the X-talon and Mudclaw 270 for off road stuff... All used without socks... I especially love the X-talon, as it feels like you have nothing on and the sole of your foot has converted itself into something grippy and just protective enough not to cut you up on rough ground...

    This change of shoes and running terrain has resulted in me going from being an unnatural, overpronating heel striker to a natural and neutral mid to forefoot runner... Never have any problems with injury anymore, unless I slip and fall and dislocate my shoulder

    I did not even have to work on the conversion in running style, it just happend naturally by giving my body the chance to run in a more natural way.

    I have to ad to this that a friend, who teaches people how to run naturally, did observe that, when running barefoot on grass I had a perfectly natural and neutral style, but as soon as I put the so called ideal running shoes on and ran on the road, I started heel striking and over pronating!!!
    Last edited by Hanneke; 25-08-2009 at 12:38 PM.
    “the cause of my pain, was the cause of my cure” Rumi

  3. #23
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    Re: :D Barefoot Running

    Quote Originally Posted by Inov-8 Insider View Post
    Why would we be out of business? As I said barefooting isnt for everyone.
    Most people will need a transition from built up shoes to going fully barefoot.
    We have believed in offering neutral, flexible shoes with varying levels of cushioning.
    Cushioning = underfoot protection
    A lot of injuries are caused by having built up shoes or high heel counters that bang or aggrevate the achilles.
    If someone asked me how to lose weight, and I said less is best the person carrying out this advice would die of starvation. If less is best then lets all run without shoes. Injuries can be caused by all sorts of things, but some injuries are caused by poor running shoe design.

    Inov 8 like other manufacturers slope their mid-soles. In one of their shoes it can be so many degrees, in another it can be different again. So when an athlete changes shoes,I.e. to race, he/she experiences a lesser or greater degree of stretch, that they're not accustomed to.

    If manufacturers wanted to mimic the foot then they'd make shoes with mid-soles of the same width front to back, in all their shoes. They don't do this for reasons known to them, so we all suffer more injuries as a result.

  4. #24
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    Re: :D Barefoot Running

    Them pesky barefooters at it again

  5. #25
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    Re: :D Barefoot Running

    Quote Originally Posted by Inov-8 Insider View Post
    Fell runs are done in either X-Talon 212 minus the footbeds or Mudclaw 330.
    Just tried this on a short (2-3 miles) multi-terrain route and was amazed at the difference - particularly on the short tarmac section. It's surprising just how much difference removing the footbeds makes. Don't think there was any heel striking all the way round except for the steepest descents. Looking forward to seeing what Inov-8 bring out.

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    Re: :D Barefoot Running


  7. #27
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    Re: :D Barefoot Running

    Do fell ponies need farriers to fit their shoes?

    I would not like to imagine the scene where Merrylegs gets his new shoes hot fitted and nailed onto his feet
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  8. #28
    Master nikalas's Avatar
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    Re: :D Barefoot Running

    Quote Originally Posted by A.P.E Knott View Post
    I love this thread.
    The whole barefoot running natural hippy type thing makes me smile.
    For some people less is more,but these people have always and will always be super efficient runners,
    I have read many stories about the early marathon runners running in plimsoles and the legendary Bikila winning gold barefoot ,but come on,these people are not in the majority.
    I think we need to take a step back and not get taken in by all the hype.
    The fact is many thousands of runners are running today because of the improvement in modern running shoes.Yes i understand people still become injured ,I speak from experience here,but i am willing to bet they would have become injured even earlier running barefoot.
    To quote Tim Noakes from "The Lore of Running" "We do not understand why modern running shoes help protect against injury , but they do".
    I'm afraid you're missing the key point Mr Knot. Modern cushioned/supported running shoes allow people to run badly. Without them you're forced develop a natural, more efficient and body friendly running style because you can't heel strike.

    I can understand you citing Tim Noakes and The Lore of Running is rightly viewed as a classic but, like many classics, some of the thinking and ideas are out-dated.

    Food for thought below:

    1) There’s no evidence that running shoes are any help at all in injury prevention: Dr Craig Richards published a research paper in 2008 in the British Journal of Sports Medicine that revealed that there have been no evidence based studies that demonstrate that running shoes make you less prone to injury. He went so far as to issue an open challenge to running shoe manufacturers to back-up their claims with peer reviewed data and is still waiting for any replies.

    2) The more you pay the more you’re likely to get injured: Dr Bernard Marti of the University of Bern analyzed 4358 runners in the Bern Grand Prix, a 9.6 mile road race. He studied every aspect of their training in the year building up to the race and found that 45% had been injured. The most common variable for the injured runners was the amount they’d spent on their running shoes. Runners in shoes that cost more than $95 were more than twice as likely to get hurt as runners in shoes that cost less than $40.

    3) A half inch of rubber isn’t going to do jot: When you run, you can generate up to twelve times your body weight of force. A half inch of rubber, gel pad or air pocket isn’t going to absorb a significant amount of that energy. Also, studies have shown, that impact forces actually increase the more cushioning you have. Our feet instinctively seek stability so, if you put something soft and squishy underneath them, they’ll come down harder.

    4) Pronation isn’t bad: Pronation has been demonized but it is just the natural movement of the foot. The foot is supposed to pronate. To see correct pronation in action kick off your shoes and run over a hard surface such as concrete. You’ll find yourself landing on the outside edge of your foot, then gently rolling from little toe over to big. That pronation is a natural shock absorbing twist that allows your arch to compress. The arch of our foot is a wonderful dynamic shock absorber so why cripple it’s natural movement by underpinning it with chocks of rubber? Dangerous over-pronation only occurs when you heel strike (see next point).

    5) Heel striking is the problem: Imagine standing on a high bench in your bare feet and jumping off onto a hard surface. How would you land? Certainly not on your heels, yet this is what the majority of modern runners do every time they stride. Modern cushioned shoes allow us to heel strike and that is not how, from a biomechanical perspective, our bodies evolved to run. Heel-toe running was "invented" by Bill Bowerman out of a mis-thought notion that it was a more energy efficient running technique for the masses. He developed shoes to facilitate it and the rest is a painful history.

    This is not some "hippy craze" but an awakening to the fact that for 40 years the sports shoe industry have been trying to solve a problem of it's own making and selling an awful lot of shoes in the process. Feet cannot function as nature intended in shoes with inflexible soles and so, by trying to correct the problems caused by wearing these shoes with more cushioning/support etc, you're just chasing shadows.

    Barefooting is not the answer as, for most people, it's impractical due to road/trail surfaces but shoes with minimal cushioning and flexible soles etc are.
    Last edited by nikalas; 26-08-2009 at 02:11 PM. Reason: spelling correction

  9. #29
    Master nikalas's Avatar
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    Re: :D Barefoot Running

    Quote Originally Posted by christopher leigh View Post
    So when an athlete changes shoes,I.e. to race, he/she experiences a lesser or greater degree of stretch, that they're not accustomed to.
    But why do people need to change shoes? I use X-Talon 212's for all my off-road running and F-Lite 230's for occasional forays on-road.

  10. #30
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    Re: :D Barefoot Running

    Quote Originally Posted by nikalas View Post
    I'm afraid you're missing the key point Mr Knot. Modern cushioned/supported running shoes allow people to run badly. Without them you're forced develop a natural, more efficient and body friendly running style because you can't heel strike.

    I can understand you citing Tim Noakes and The Lore of Running is rightly viewed as a classic but, like many classics, some of the thinking and ideas are out-dated.

    Food for thought below:

    1) There’s no evidence that running shoes are any help at all in injury prevention: Dr Craig Richards published a research paper in 2008 in the British Journal of Sports Medicine that revealed that there have been no evidence based studies that demonstrate that running shoes make you less prone to injury. He went so far as to issue an open challenge to running shoe manufacturers to back-up their claims with peer reviewed data and is still waiting for any replies.

    2) The more you pay the more you’re likely to get injured: Dr Bernard Marti of the University of Bern analyzed 4358 runners in the Bern Grand Prix, a 9.6 mile road race. He studied every aspect of their training in the year building up to the race and found that 45% had been injured. The most common variable for the injured runners was the amount they’d spent on their running shoes. Runners in shoes that cost more than $95 were more than twice as likely to get hurt as runners in shoes that cost less than $40.

    3) A half inch of rubber isn’t going to do jot: When you run, you can generate up to twelve times your body weight of force. A half inch of rubber, gel pad or air pocket isn’t going to absorb a significant amount of that energy. Also, studies have shown, that impact forces actually increase the more cushioning you have. Our feet instinctively seek stability so, if you put something soft and squishy underneath them, they’ll come down harder.

    4) Pronation isn’t bad: Pronation has been demonized but it is just the natural movement of the foot. The foot is supposed to pronate. To see correct pronation in action kick off your shoes and run over a hard surface such as concrete. You’ll find yourself landing on the outside edge of your foot, then gently rolling from little toe over to big. That pronation is a natural shock absorbing twist that allows your arch to compress. The arch of our foot is a wonderful dynamic shock absorber so why cripple it’s natural movement by underpinning it with chocks of rubber? Dangerous over-pronation only occurs when you heel strike (see next point).

    5) Heel striking is the problem: Imagine standing on a high bench in your bare feet and jumping off onto a hard surface. How would you land? Certainly not on your heels, yet this is what the majority of modern runners do every time they stride. Modern cushioned shoes allow us to heel strike and that is not how, from a biomechanical perspective, our bodies evolved to run. Heel-toe running was "invented" by Bill Bowerman out of a mis-thought notion that it was a more energy efficient running technique for the masses. He developed shoes to facilitate it and the rest is a painful history.

    This is not some "hippy craze" but an awakening to the fact that for 40 years the sports shoe industry have been trying to solve a problem of it's own making and selling an awful lot of shoes in the process. Feet cannot function as nature intended in shoes with inflexible soles and so, by trying to correct the problems caused by wearing these shoes with more cushioning/support etc, you're just chasing shadows.

    Barefooting is not the answer as, for most people, it's impractical due to road/trail surfaces but shoes with minimal cushioning and flexible soles etc are.
    1) Watch that glass Mr Craig Richards, "what gla...aahhhh." Come on Nicklas there is no research because not many are insane enough to run down the road without shoes on.

    2) Maybe the athletes paying the most for their shoes ran more and as a result got injured more.

    3)If I drop a bouncy ball (it's about half an inch)and a ball of stone, which will return the most energy? If there is something soft and squidgy under my feet I won't land harder I'll land softer. I'll tell you what Nicklas we'll both jump from a 30ft tower, you can land on the nice soft concrete floor and I'll land on a nice hard bouncy castle. Oh and what flowers would you like at the hospital?

    5) Jumping off a high bench and running are two different movements. Forcing one to run against nature's design is wrong whether heel strikes, mid-foot plants or forefoot strikes.
    Last edited by CL; 26-08-2009 at 03:30 PM.

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