Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[Hank]

Page 33 onwards: http://www.gorphwysfa.org/Gorphwysfa...nal%202003.pdf

70-80 miles a week for fell racing.

[CL]

It'd be interesting to know how the top fell runners train who need to be very good at 4 miles races and 15-23 miles races and ones in between. Very hard to apply a single method or theory to that I'd have thought.

I suppose there are generally gaps between the races, but not massive, like the gap between Blisco and Wasdale this year! Not long enough to really switch your focus and method of training.

(I mean those going for the Champs.)

But you don't really change your focus apart from adding some longer runs. I think some runners suffer from flat earth syndrome. If they have a 20 mile race and have only covered 10 miles in one run, they consider the 10.01 mile point as a place where their legs will somehow cease to function. It doesn't happen like that. Some short sessions can be so effective as to have a dramatic carry through effect in terms of stamina.

[Derby Tup]

Hard gardening is the secret

[CL]

I don't agree with this at all CL. I'm running nowadays like never before (approx 200 miles a month all off road) and having just hit the grand old age of 56 and, having played football and then done a completely bonkers form of 'hong kong fuey' for years while younger, I have no joint disorders at all (that I know of). If anything my joints feel better than ever. All of my injuries from running have come from twisting ankles and knees over rough ground and descending like a mental case, which I tend to try and refrain from nowadays.

I read something on the internet a couple of years ago (so it must be true ) about running not giving joint problems in fact. I can't now find the article in question but I did find this one.

I do agree with you on the need to put effort in and that the only way to run faster is to (duh!) run faster. I do think that quite a few slower runners forget this solution though because its too painful

You're missing the point entirely. You are telling us there are no health consequences in overdoing the running over what could be a short or long period. I know there are and I only need one example to demonstrate the principle. I've given it. Now you might be lucky and get away with it or you might not but at least it should be considered when deciding how much training to do.

[L.F.F.]

There was a really interesting article linked to from a thread on here a while ago about Kenny Stuart's training. I'm pretty sure he still holds the records for Ennerdale and Wansfell, so definitely fits the bill of excelling at the short and long stuff. I think he ran a pretty amazing road marathon time too. I don't remember much about the article, but I've a feeling he wasn't a "big" mileage trainer. Interesting comparrison with the likes of Billy Bland and Joss Naylor who according to legend just piled on the miles day after day over the fells.

There was a great article on him in the Bill Smith collection of articles in the last Fell Runner mag. Variety of terrain, distance and speed seemed to be a part of his weekly plan, at least during his fell running days. It was really interesting.

It was interesting to compare his approach to Gavin Bland who was also in the pamphlet (interview from a good few years ago).

I find the different approaches intriguing.

[TheReverand]

So much to debate about with this topic, its as clear as mud really. Not one of us is built the same, and not one of us will have the same results from the same training regime, some maybe able to physically handle 80/100mile, most simply would never cope with that mileage and would be forever injured.
I like the CL thinking of training 'smart', but how do you train 'smart' for a race thats going to take you 2hr30min to run?

[L.F.F.]

But you don't really change your focus apart from adding some longer runs. I think some runners suffer from flat earth syndrome. If they have a 20 mile race and have only covered 10 miles in one run, they consider the 10.01 mile point as a place where their legs will somehow cease to function. It doesn't happen like that. Some short sessions can be so effective as to have a dramatic carry through effect in terms of stamina.

It does make sense. My own experience of that is doing the L50 but with my longest runs beforehand having been 18m/2 hours and a bit. I definitely felt the main thing lacking was a few longer days out. But the carry through effect was there.

[Stolly]

You're missing the point entirely. You are trying to tell us is there are no health consequences to overdoing the running over what could be a short or long period. I know there are and I only need one example to demonstrate the principle. I've given it. Now you might be lucky and get away with it or you might not but at least it should be considered when deciding how much training to do.

You quoted two runners who had to retire early through 'wear and tear' to their knees, which you put down to over training. Surely there could have been other reasons also - for instance most cartilage and ligament problems stem from twisting injuries (or contact in contact sports) and its not like fell running can't cause those. In fact you could argue those who run the maddest over rough ground (to win) also run a huge risk of ending their running career early. Shouldn't you also be arguing for every one to take it steady to avoid injury?

[TheReverand]

It'd be interesting to know how the top fell runners train who need to be very good at 4 miles races and 15-23 miles races and ones in between. Very hard to apply a single method or theory to that I'd have thought.

I suppose there are generally gaps between the races, but not massive, like the gap between Blisco and Wasdale this year! Not long enough to really switch your focus and method of training.

(I mean those going for the Champs.)

I imagine if you live in the mountains/hills, you quickly develop the ability to leg it up a short steep hill quickly, and equally you would be at home going for a longer run through the hills, so each race would essentially come alike. Got to be a huge advantage having ready acssess to the fells.

[CL]

You quoted two runners who had to retire early through 'wear and tear' to their knees, which you put down to over training. Surely there could have been other reasons also - for instance most cartilage and ligament problems stem from twisting injuries (or contact in contact sports) and its not like fell running can't cause those. In fact you could argue those who run the maddest over rough ground (to win) also run a huge risk of ending their running career early. Shouldn't you also be arguing for every one to take it steady to avoid injury?

My understanding is twisting is more likely to cause ligament damage, unless there is additional impact. Any how it doesn't matter. Friction causes wear in all things. Synovial fluid is there to protect but it'll only do so much just like oil on a chain. The more you move the more things are worn down. That's why athletes should find efficient training methods that reduce the wear and tear.