Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[IainR]

In my expereince feeling good is not always a good indicator of performance.
I've trained /raced when feeling good and had poor sessions / results
I've trained /raced when feeling "off" and had great sessions / results
there's so much more at play than the physiology - psychology I think then call it.

I think I'm like that.. I can warm up well... but normally know within 100m of a race how its going..

I think I do run better of confidence which is why I like high mileage.. I know it may not make sense physiologically but turning up to a race knowing I've ran x miles/week, x sessions/ week, gives me confidence that it'll go OK..

I definetly find a good taper now works, I never did, but think now I'm running more when I do taper and do it properly, I certainly run at my best, but I'd only do that for 5 or 6 races a year at most..

I do worry about the long term effects of high mileage are and how many runners who do 80/90/100 miles plus a week stay in the game.. speaking with a fair few older runners they seem convinced the switch to biking was a huge plus in their running longevity.. certainly now I'm at the 90/100 mile week stage I hurt more, my hips sting at times..

The other thing though, and its blindingly obvious, is being lighter.. I'm a big guy, dropping 3/4/5 kilos for a big race makes a huge difference.. but I like food and beer...

[Vegan Runner]

The other thing though, and its blindingly obvious, is being lighter.. I'm a big guy, dropping 3/4/5 kilos for a big race makes a huge difference.. but I like food and beer...

I'm thinking the same. For me not you, just to keep it clear. That and running regularly seems to make me faster but I'd love to be a faster runner full stop. I just can't be bothered with reps and intervals and weights and anything that stops running from being fun. Someone needs to write a good, generic training guide for those of us who can't get to the hills everyday but still want to do better.

..and back on topic in 3...2...1...

[mr brightside]

Hi FG, I'd definitely aim for 3 sessions a week for a couple of months while you're using it as training, then probably 1/week to keep it ticking over.

When I was using the gym for weights (and this was in deep winter when I don't train well outside), I used to do my weights routines round the gym, then immediately on to the treadmill for one of my (slow-speed/uphill) interval sessions. Taken together there was an element of metabolic training to it all. Now I have some free weights at home, I more often do the lifting a while after training, but not immediately after, and not after a very intense session, especially not if this was high impact.

If people want to know more I'll put it in a new thread (I didn't see a recent old thread?). I don't claim to be authoritative on the subject either. I can tell you that Graeme Woodward is!

Hi Iain,
If you go for low-weight / lots of reps, you may as well just go for a run ~ you're not creating a significantly different stimulus
(Although of course beginners at weights should start well within their comfort range before they starting to push the limit, and yes some of the reasons for doing weights work still apply to many-reps, and yes, for support muscles not directly trained by running, I may well go for 3x10 or 2x20 reps rather than pushing the limit on x3s or x5s, especially on things like leg-curl and hip adductor machines which can very easily cause strains (hamstring, groin respectively) ~ I almost invariably use free weights and body-weight exercises these days, but I think machines are a good starting point for anyone).

Also, agreed, some people put on muscle very readily, and others (men & women) don't, so it's different things for different people. Between very steep hill reps, cycling, and weights, I'd say the most important factor in making a choice is that you have to be motivated to go and do it 3 times a week.

Specific advantages of weights include, however:

1. Teaching body to use high proportion of muscle fibres
2. Doing this over a large ROM (Range of Movement)
3. Applying force eccentrically and concentrically (imagine your quads as you first sit down slowly into a squat, and then stand up again)
4. Building support muscles that aid technique and injury prevention but that are not directly worked in normal training
5. Reducing muscle imbalance (eg hamstrings vs quads)
6. Training fast and slow twitch fibres that may not be activated in your normal training (by using slow and also explosive weights moves)

Hi Lauren. What posture do you adopt with deep squats? Do you stick your arse out as far as possible, or do you try to keep as much of your weight as possible directly over your feet? The first would mean very little bend at the ankles with your legs ending up at right angles and the weight being taken through your heels; the second would make the inside angle between your feet and your shins more acute and mean you'd take the weight evenly through your heels and toes. Sorry to be technical.

[CL]

Interesting you mention that. I think i'm going to go to the doctors for a blood test to see if i have any serious deficiencies. My knees have had me down to 4/5mpw for years now, dispite intensive physio. I thought i was making progress with a fresh physio and a new diagnosis, but recently both have completely wiped out leaving me unable to even walk my 4/5mpw without concequences; i can feel depression starting to kick back in again so i'm back swimming again to try and beat it off. The only common denominator is the winter. I'm running out of ways to 'get back into it easily', i can't go any slower than a walk! If my family history is anything to go by i'm also due a cancer fight some time soon too.

Come on Mr B this is a technical thread not a 'look at poor little me' thread.

[CL]

In my expereince feeling good is not always a good indicator of performance.
I've trained /raced when feeling good and had poor sessions / results
I've trained /raced when feeling "off" and had great sessions / results
there's so much more at play than the physiology - psychology I think then call it.

That's because you haven't distinguished between the generalised fatigue and localised fatigue that Lissa was talking about.

[mr brightside]

Come on Mr B this is a technical thread not a 'look at poor little me' thread.

Sorry Christopher it's just nice to vent it somewhere, i don't tend to vent it with people because they tend to react like you do.

[LissaJous]

That bouncy feeling Lissa describes is how exercise should make you feel and when it does you shouldn't always destroy it with more hard training. In other words enjoy being fit.

Yes, it's almost a rule-of-thumb for me that at the end of a training session, I should feel like I want to go further, or certainly after a few minutes recovery.

After my toughest/maximal interval sessions, naturally I need to stop at the end (... and breathe!), but 15 minutes later I feel on a massive high. And a bit dizzy. Once I tried repeating the interval work, and my legs absolutely didn't allow it! These days I have a rule: I'll be planning a number of intervals. If my legs are reaching total exhaustion I'll stop early (otherwise my next session will be compromised), but I'll never add intervals. I may bump the speed up or steal seconds out of my recovery intervals if it's too easy. Note: total exhaustion in legs is I presume when the muscle glycogen is all gone, and (whatever the cause), will take 2 or 3 days to recover compared to ~1 day if I stop just a fraction earlier.

And as I mentioned in my first post in the thread, my first priority when feeling bouncy is recovery drink / followed by food. That evening bounce is a vital opportunity for your body to absorb nutrients. Leave it too long and it's replaced by tiredness/sleepiness.

[L.F.F.]

There's been some great information on here. Real food for thought.

I do keep thinking, as I'm reading, I don't imagine Joss Naylor ever gave this sort of thing that much thought, and the reading I've done suggests he didn't (could be wrong, but his approach seemed really natural and simple), but for those of us that aren't Joss... it's been really interesting.

[Twister]

I'm thinking the same. For me not you, just to keep it clear. That and running regularly seems to make me faster but I'd love to be a faster runner full stop. I just can't be bothered with reps and intervals and weights and anything that stops running from being fun. Someone needs to write a good, generic training guide for those of us who can't get to the hills everyday but still want to do better.

..and back on topic in 3...2...1...

I actually find hill reps and intervals quite good fun. I also enjoy body weight exercises.

[IainR]

I actually find hill reps and intervals quite good fun. I also enjoy body weight exercises.

That's the beauty of being in a club/group of good runners..

It was something we never had in North Wales really, well with Menai for a bit..

But over in the states I've had a group in Texas, and elite track clubs in Boston and Philly to train with..

You turn up, tired leggy.. you chat with everyone, have a laugh, do a few miles warm up, all your stretching, which you'd (I'd) never do properly on my own, blast out your reps, and the way the US people are it is all incredibly positive... none of the UK put downs.. lots of encouragement, then you do your cool down, more chats and a laugh.. 8-10 mile sessions, normally a good 3-4 miles of hard efforts.. really enjoyable session.

In TX we had a group of 20-30, from 13-50 year olds, all standards and we'd just divide into groups, we had runners from olympic marathon standard down to people doing 2 hr halfmarathons.. so the full range.. incredible sessions with a great coach.