dibber or die !!

[andy k]

one day we'll be able to track everyone in a race by location. .

Orienteering is already there with live GPS tracking of the big races.
Runners carry a transmitter, and their position / route is displayed in real time on the competition map.
You can basically follow the whole race as the runners progress, see their routes, watch them find or miss control points, gain or lose time on other runners.
Its only put on in major / high profile races, European Champs in June, World Champs next month, a big Swedish race series, big relays.

Here is the Mens Final in the middle distance race at the recent European Champs in Sweden.
Click and drag the map (or zoom in / out) to find the start triangle (which is over on the right)
Click on the play arrow top left, wait about ten seconds and the first runner will set off, then the second.
This replay is speeded up but gives a clear idea of the capability.

http://www.tulospalvelu.fi/gps/20120517EOCMidMF/

[Mark G]

I usually put mine on a cord around my neck or clipped to the side pocket of my bumbag. I've never trusted either the finger strap or the glued wrist strap. Cag/gloves/lifa on and off a few times or scrambling about or a fall during a race could dislodge either I think. Although I like having the splits short of a reliable radio/relay system linked to race control I think the traditional bread tags are probably the best practical method to help marshalls keep a real time track of who has gone through checkpoints. I know they still have to physically record numbers but using tags means they can check there and then if they have any doubts or when a sudden large group arriving makes recording individual numbers problematic. Where dibbers are used I think there should be a compulsory dib at the start line to aid confirmation of who has actually started the race, not just the first checkpoint.

[Hank]

Orienteering is already there with live GPS tracking of the big races.
Runners carry a transmitter, and their position / route is displayed in real time on the competition map.
You can basically follow the whole race as the runners progress, see their routes, watch them find or miss control points, gain or lose time on other runners.
Its only put on in major / high profile races, European Champs in June, World Champs next month, a big Swedish race series, big relays.

Here is the Mens Final in the middle distance race at the recent European Champs in Sweden.
Click and drag the map (or zoom in / out) to find the start triangle (which is over on the right)
Click on the play arrow top left, wait about ten seconds and the first runner will set off, then the second.
This replay is speeded up but gives a clear idea of the capability.

http://www.tulospalvelu.fi/gps/20120517EOCMidMF/

I'm pretty sure they had it at a day of the Scottish 6 Days last year for the elites... shown on a large screen it was an entertaining watch. I was tracked on day 2 of the OMM in 2010. When I rang my girlfriend on the drive home she thought I was still in the middle of Dartmoor. To be fair, I think the technology's improved a bit since then.

[Stolly]

Its funny how dibbers are being justified as a way of tracking runners, should they go missing or lost. I'd say the main reason for dibbers is to give accurate splits and easily record that the runners have gone the right way and not cheated. Marshall points in races are primarily there to ensure that runners have visited all the right places too.

For sure marshalls counting runners through and/or dibbers help track down runners but there is still huge scope for a runner to get lost in huge tracts of land regardless of their last dibbering and checkpoint. Lets face it the race has to be finished quite a while before any runner is assumed lost and search parties sent out.

[Spelling Bee]

It's "marshal" unless you mean Arthur Marshall and I can't see him getting up to the tops of any hills these days.

Hope this helps.

[dominion]

It's "marshal" unless you mean Arthur Marshall and I can't see him getting up to the tops of any hills these days.

Hope this helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal

[Toreador]

http://www.whichenglish.com/usage/usage_m.html

[fozzy]

Where dibbers are used I think there should be a compulsory dib at the start line to aid confirmation of who has actually started the race, not just the first checkpoint.

This isn't practical is it? For a "fair" start, you'd need a dibber box for every runner at the start line!

The way the system works in mass start races is that everyone who registers is accounted for on the system with their dibber number and the system timing is started when the race starts (i.e. the SI bloke presses a button on his laptop when the race starts which encodes the start time to the system) - the registration should be the confirmation of who actually starts the race. If someone fails to start for whatever reason after registering, then they would need to go to download and confirm this with the registration/SI team.

This is the same reason why most fell races don't send out numbers and do EOD - you have a clear knowledge of who has started the race. If someone collected their number at a fell race and didn't start for whatever reason, they'd need to report to the RO as soon as they could anyway

Its funny how dibbers are being justified as a way of tracking runners, should they go missing or lost. I'd say the main reason for dibbers is to give accurate splits and easily record that the runners have gone the right way and not cheated. Marshall points in races are primarily there to ensure that runners have visited all the right places too.

For sure marshalls counting runners through and/or dibbers help track down runners but there is still huge scope for a runner to get lost in huge tracts of land regardless of their last dibbering and checkpoint. Lets face it the race has to be finished quite a while before any runner is assumed lost and search parties sent out.

Dibbers should give a more reliable count - it's possible for a marshal to miss count or miss someone's number because it's covered up with a jacket.

But you are correct about runners going lost. The argument here is that you would get a quicker count back to Race HQ - the marshal brings the box in off the hill after all runners have passed (to their knowledge) and downloads - straight away you get a count and exactly who has passed the CP.

But yes, it may still be some time before said lost runner is reported lost.

[Toreador]

it's possible for a marshal to miss count or miss someone's number because it's covered up with a jacket.

Or as happened to me once (and I'm surprised doesn't happen more often) - the number's under a jacket, you shout it out, and they mis-hear (13 or 30? etc)

[Mark G]

This isn't practical is it? For a "fair" start, you'd need a dibber box for every runner at the start line!

The way the system works in mass start races is that everyone who registers is accounted for on the system with their dibber number and the system timing is started when the race starts (i.e. the SI bloke presses a button on his laptop when the race starts which encodes the start time to the system) - the registration should be the confirmation of who actually starts the race. If someone fails to start for whatever reason after registering, then they would need to go to download and confirm this with the registration/SI team.

This is the same reason why most fell races don't send out numbers and do EOD - you have a clear knowledge of who has started the race. If someone collected their number at a fell race and didn't start for whatever reason, they'd need to report to the RO as soon as they could anyway



Dibbers should give a more reliable count - it's possible for a marshal to miss count or miss someone's number because it's covered up with a jacket.

But you are correct about runners going lost. The argument here is that you would get a quicker count back to Race HQ - the marshal brings the box in off the hill after all runners have passed (to their knowledge) and downloads - straight away you get a count and exactly who has passed the CP.

But yes, it may still be some time before said lost runner is reported lost.

Fozzy - I didn't mean as you start but as you get to the start - just a bit more reliable than assuming everyone who has taken a number did actually start the race. Graham Arthur at Jura this year corralled everyone before the start and made everyone put a bread tag in a bag just before the off. Still not totally foolproof but I thought it was a good idea. I'm still not convinced about how effective or fast relying on boxes to be brought down off the hill and downloaded at the finish would be. Imagine a marshall on Kirkfell in Ennerdale - after the last runner goes through they might have a two or three hour trip back to the finish by which time the leading runners may have been back for a good few hours. If marshalls on a checkpoint are able to contact race control during the event and either they or race control queries a particular runner or numbers the box wont tell them unless they can access it there and then. They will have their written list which may or may not be accurate depending on conditions etc, but they could physically check their bag of tags. The alternative would be boxes linked electronically to race control, fine if it works which it may well not on lots of race checkpoint locations and a disaster if you are relying on it and it goes wrong which sods law says it will sooner or later.
I still think simplicity rules - writing down numbers and backed up by tags.