Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[IainR]

Not convinced by this CL. It's not very scientific. What's the incidence in non-runners, lesser runners etc. You're normally a bit more specific than personal, anecdotal 'evidence' which fits with what you believe.

Having said that I think you are right about quality training over quantity.

I don't understand your point. Both these runners have had scans or whatever showing worn cartlidge in knees and hips. I also know a very good fell runner who's had to finish because of arthritis in his hip, also in his 40s. These are scientific facts and I wouldn't say its illogical to lay the cause at running's door.[/QUOTE]

But its n =1 or 2 science....

You can find none runners who have had hip and knee replacements...

[mr brightside]

Happy New Year Mr. B.

It sounds like that you want to get the most out of limited training time. For the past 5 years or so I've maxed out at about 5 or 6 hours training a week (job, kids etc.) and haven't done bad on what some might consider to be too few miles. And that's not just in short BOFRA races too. It has been enough for good results in longer races like Rydal Round or Anni Waltz too. What I lose in time I have to make up in intensity so I don't do anything particularly steady and include a fair amount of interval work either as hill reps or on the turbo. About 2 years ago I found a great book which related pretty well to what I was already doing called "The Time-Crunched Cyclist" by Chris Carmichael. Although it is obviously a cycling book, the principles can easily be transferred to fell running. It is well worth a read. I tweaked my training based on its principles to good effect. With such limited time it acknowledges that there are limits. I wouldn't be able to race something like the Three Peaks well with such limited training, but that's fine. I enjoy running short / medium races. Most people infact do if you look through race results. I would lower the intensity of some sessions if I had more time to train, but that is the point, I don't have more time so I have to use the best of what time I have.

Hope to catch up with you at a race sometime soon

Harry

Happy new year to you too Ali. If this year's KWL goes without a hitch, then i'll be looking to slowly introduce a weekday session for the Bofra season. I can just about see the light at the end of the tunnel with my knee problem but i'm going to be severely limited in terms of milage, which is ok because i favour hard work and quality over quantity. It's probably going to start with adding a short interval session per week with as little milage as possible, and i'm going to have to be prepared to knock it on the head if soreness starts up. Scout Scar went ok today, i felt fast, but there again i would do without any hills slowing me down! I need to nail the flat ones, because when Fairmile comes around it's going to be business as usual from there on in.

[CL]

But its n =1 or 2 science....

You can find none runners who have had hip and knee replacements...

But I have Iain R, you just don't bother reading properly. So I won't waste my time writing it again.

Anyway you don't need science when you've got Hong Kong Phooey:

"what caused his knackered knees?
"was it knitting a picture of Rolf Harris into a woolen jumper?"
"was it playing the bells of Saint Mary's on his cuff links?"
"or was it running 100 MPW for 10 years?
"COULD BE!".................music: "Hong Kong Phooey, number one super guy, Hong Kong Phooey"............with a ya ya, chop, chop, put your cape and mask on.

[Tahr]

Christopher while in general I agree with your principle of training, train hard, recover, train hard again.

From personal experience of arthritis in the knees it is the opposite result to what you post, although may be it depends on the mileage? No running no good, too much running no good, moderation in all things?????

My Grandfather, had arthritis in his knees all the time I knew him, my father, arthritis in his knees from his 30s, both brothers the same, son 25 already having knee problems and yet none of these did anyrunning, father a little football in his teens and twenties, son rugby in his teens and early 20s. Both brothers no sport. Me, arthritis in my knee at 40, I was told by phyiso do not stop running and do your exercises, did exercises and do even more running now and at 48 I am pain freein my knee.

ATB

Tahr

[CL]

Christopher while in general I agree with your principle of training, train hard, recover, train hard again.

From personal experience of arthritis in the knees it is the opposite result to what you post, although may be it depends on the mileage? No running no good, too much running no good, moderation in all things?????

My Grandfather, had arthritis in his knees all the time I knew him, my father, arthritis in his knees from his 30s, both brothers the same, son 25 already having knee problems and yet none of these did anyrunning, father a little football in his teens and twenties, son rugby in his teens and early 20s. Both brothers no sport. Me, arthritis in my knee at 40, I was told by phyiso do not stop running and do your exercises, did exercises and do even more running now and at 48 I am pain freein my knee.

ATB

Tahr

I've never agreed with that sentiment 'moderation in all things.' Is a moderate amount of cyanide good for people? Anyway I'm not at odds with the cause of your arthritis because you say it wasn't caused by running. What I am at odds with is this idea that there aren't a lot of people with joint disorders who have got these problems by overdoing the exercise.

[Epocian]

i dont know if you remember jimmy ashworth(think 2.10 marathon)jimmy used to be in correspondence with arthur lydiard,
jim would run 200 miles a week,the mileage suited him.
colin moore(sub 44 mins 10 miler)would do 50 miles a week all of quality and would beat jimmy by a good 3 minutes over 10 miles.
as said everyone is different.

Love to know when Colin Moore went under 44min for 10 miles - It would still be a world record!

[L.F.F.]

It'd be interesting to know how the top fell runners train who need to be very good at 4 miles races and 15-23 miles races and ones in between. Very hard to apply a single method or theory to that I'd have thought.

I suppose there are generally gaps between the races, but not massive, like the gap between Blisco and Wasdale this year! Not long enough to really switch your focus and method of training.

(I mean those going for the Champs.)

[Stolly]

What I am at odds with is this idea that there aren't a lot of people with joint disorders who have got these problems by overdoing the exercise.

I don't agree with this at all CL. I'm running nowadays like never before (approx 200 miles a month all off road) and having just hit the grand old age of 56 and, having played football and then done a completely bonkers form of 'hong kong fuey' for years while younger, I have no joint disorders at all (that I know of). If anything my joints feel better than ever. All of my injuries from running have come from twisting ankles and knees over rough ground and descending like a mental case, which I tend to try and refrain from nowadays.

I read something on the internet a couple of years ago (so it must be true ) about running not giving joint problems in fact. I can't now find the article in question but I did find this one.

I do agree with you on the need to put effort in and that the only way to run faster is to (duh!) run faster. I do think that quite a few slower runners forget this solution though because its too painful

[Hank]

It'd be interesting to know how the top fell runners train who need to be very good at 4 miles races and 15-23 miles races and ones in between. Very hard to apply a single method or theory to that I'd have thought.

I suppose there are generally gaps between the races, but not massive, like the gap between Blisco and Wasdale this year! Not long enough to really switch your focus and method of training.

(I mean those going for the Champs.)

There was a really interesting article linked to from a thread on here a while ago about Kenny Stuart's training. I'm pretty sure he still holds the records for Ennerdale and Wansfell, so definitely fits the bill of excelling at the short and long stuff. I think he ran a pretty amazing road marathon time too. I don't remember much about the article, but I've a feeling he wasn't a "big" mileage trainer. Interesting comparrison with the likes of Billy Bland and Joss Naylor who according to legend just piled on the miles day after day over the fells.

[Stolly]

There was a really interesting article linked to from a thread on here a while ago about Kenny Stuart's training. I'm pretty sure he still holds the records for Ennerdale and Wansfell, so definitely fits the bill of excelling at the short and long stuff. I think he ran a pretty amazing road marathon time too. I don't remember much about the article, but I've a feeling he wasn't a "big" mileage trainer. Interesting comparrison with the likes of Billy Bland and Joss Naylor who according to legend just piled on the miles day after day over the fells.

Actually I think Kenny Stuart then went on to fall foul to some kind of over training bug - he tried to convert to high road mileage and marathon running didn't he and over time it all went tits up? That though is proof that we all work in different ways.