Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[dylan]

its worth adding that a lot of past(older) runners who retire through injury were training in very basic training shoes,plimsoles in some cases,
and in the 60/70 and 80s used to race everything from track to road to fell.
so most of the training was done on the road as the safe base terrain.
then there was not as much access to the fells,footpaths were not as established or marked as they are now and maps were very poor in detail.
when i first started racing on the fells in the early 80s,75 runners was a big field,the following week at a road race you would also see the same faces from the fells plus some out and out road racers,then you would see the odd bod at a track meet.
i think today with a greater understanding of training,the inclusion of hrms,better awareness of training routes,gps and well researched running shoes we have become less injury prone.
but,we have got slower too.
the times i achieved finishing in the top 50 then would give me a place in the top 20 today,if not higher,why???????

[IainR]

There was a really interesting article linked to from a thread on here a while ago about Kenny Stuart's training. I'm pretty sure he still holds the records for Ennerdale and Wansfell, so definitely fits the bill of excelling at the short and long stuff. I think he ran a pretty amazing road marathon time too. I don't remember much about the article, but I've a feeling he wasn't a "big" mileage trainer. Interesting comparrison with the likes of Billy Bland and Joss Naylor who according to legend just piled on the miles day after day over the fells.

How long was Billy's career though?

It's a tad n = 1 science again though anyway..

Just thought BB bowed out quite early? I know others still run and do well and that BB is still active..

Colin Donelly is some longevity.. winning races for what? across 5 decades? I bet he was winning in his teens, twenties, thirties, fourties and fifties... wonder what his training schedule was..

Interesting though Colin wasn't one of these who just focussed on the fells, did XC through the winter, but also believed the odd super long event helped the rest of your running...

His 3000ers record deserves serious attention off todays top runners to show just how good he was. Even the records he doesn't hold around North Wales, he's ran close to the best times...

[Trog]

If you are suggesting that I can achieve my aim with far less or smarter, I am all ears and will happily be your Guinea pig

I did not realise that I should be using my eyes rather than my ears until I saw this on another thread:

I'm sure Christopher Leigh will recommend 'The Intelligent Athlete' :wink:

My mate google eventually pointed me in the right direction after a few false starts.

A number of forum members reported to purchasing the book over a year ago, I would be very interested in hearing some feedback.

And , no I am not trying to knock Chris's ideas, indeed I have just pressed the 'purchase now' now button.

[CL]

I did not realise that I should be using my eyes rather than my ears until I saw this on another thread:



My mate google eventually pointed me in the right direction after a few false starts.

A number of forum members reported to purchasing the book over a year ago, I would be very interested in hearing some feedback.

And , no I am not trying to knock Chris's ideas, indeed I have just pressed the 'purchase now' now button.

Thanks for that Trog. I called my book by its name not because you have to be a genius to understand it but because you do have to be prepared to think through the ideas and apply them to yourself. That won't be easy for some because many of the ideas require a basic grasp of physics. Unfortunately, unlike most training books, I couldn't leave these physical principles out, to do so would be to contradict its purpose.

The book covers all the key ideas in training and explains why you should train in a certain way, what you should be trying to achieve; it differentiates the various methods. I was told by one person who has read it that it was a weight training book for runners. That made me smile because being a runner that person would see it that way. Actually though it is a book for all athletes in any sport who want to train for either speed, strength or endurance or a combination of all three. Yes, in some chapters I write from a running angle but actually the principles are universal and can be applied to any sport, hence its title.

Anyway I hope you enjoy it and the difference in style over conventional training books.

[CL]

Anyway back onto the issue. I think some are trying to imply that I am calling for more shorter, harder, anaerobic sessions as a replacement for long runs. I'm not and as Iain R has pointed out this can be over done as well, with far worse consequences than too many long slow runs. What I'm saying is firstly forget about cramming so many sessions into a day or week. Forget it! Instead have a list of hard sessions that are key and fill the time gap between with easier aerobic or rest periods. Take as long as necessary between hard sessions and when you feel strong again hit another hard session. This is the problem with all schedules in books-including mine(which are a guide) - they cannot say when you will be ready for another session and if you just blindly follow their advice you'll probably be worn out in a couple of weeks.

[shaunaneto]

Excellent post

[Trog]

Anyway I hope you enjoy it and the difference in style over conventional training books.

Cheers Chris,

[Deadlegs]

Excellent post

Seconded. When you see new research published on training methods it seems to support the benefits of high intensity interval training, neural training and weight training for indurance sport. Which is what CL has advocated for a while but doesn't use those terms (unless I've misunderstood him).

[Trog]

This is the problem with all schedules in books-including mine(which are a guide) - they cannot say when you will be ready for another session and if you just blindly follow their advice you'll probably be worn out in a couple of weeks.

In the main modern books (not read Chris's yet) tend to just give a programme without the full detail.

Hard sessions, with a long run, indoor training and a rest day has been with us since the 50's. Indeed Franz Stampfl* was saying for 3 & 6 mile events, do 4 Interval days per week.

He gave the progression though, so in November you would do 15 x 400 in x seconds, Dec would be a couple of seconds faster and by May (the start of the track season then) you would be doing 20 x 400 slightly faster than your expected racing pace.

Irrespective of how you train: If you intend to do the same in 2013 as you did in 2012, 11 & 10 you cannot expect any improvement.


*Franz Stampfl on running, first published 1955, Forward by Roger Bannister, introduction by Chris Brasher

[CL]

Seconded. When you see new research published on training methods it seems to support the benefits of high intensity interval training, neural training and weight training for indurance sport. Which is what CL has advocated for a while but doesn't use those terms (unless I've misunderstood him).

You can get very good or equal results without doing intervals. If you did that though you'd have to substitute those sessions with time trials and weight training to develop or maintain anaerobic capacity. In one of Seb Coe's books his physiologist encourages him to keep up the weight training for a longer period before racing. He explains that it is required to develop the mitochondria in the muscles. You see running will not develop these power houses to the same degree as proper weight training.

I think weight training is overlooked by many athletes because the guidance and instruction in this area is very poor. They go to the gym lift a weight a few times, roll around on a ball, chat with their mates etc. So they end up getting no results and say to themselves and others " I tried weights but it just didn't work." Women avoid it because they think it'll make them bulky when instead it'll carve them into Coco Chanels. I'm not saying weight training is easy, it's not, it's the hardest training you'll do but it'll make you a better runner from as little as 10 minutes a week. You just can't over do it that's all.