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Thread: New safety rules

  1. #441
    alwaysinjured
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty View Post
    Along with race Registration forms,insurance information etc race organisers have now been sent a copy of the " new rules " and the draft has been available for everyone to look at and comment on for some time. My hope is that everyone agrees to comply with the rules rather than seek to get around them in some way. They should certainly help most race organisers enforce the safety aspect and hopefully most competitors will accept them in the spirit in which they have been written i.e. For their own safety.
    There is no doubting the motives of the FRA in revising the rules nor the expertise of the people who drafted them.
    Fell running though is a safe sport. Whilst 1 fatality is too many, considering the number of events/races held each year, the nature of the terrain, adverse weather etc and the severity of the sport to my knowledge there have only been a handful of fatalities ( I have been unfortunate to have been running in 3 of those races ! )whether the " new rules " may have prevented any of those fatalities is debatable we shall never know but if life and limb can be saved in the future I'm all for it.
    First to say,

    I take my hat off to all race organisers. They do a stirling job, often having to cope with crass stupidity on the part of a minority of competitors. I also take my hat off to the committees charged with the thankless task of trying to organise all the above, and cover the backside of the FRA and the ROs in the process.

    People are fallible. Mistakes and bad things will happen. The trick is to find a few procedures that help to limit the likelihood and reduce the scale of adverse consequence if any of them do happen.

    BUT

    In this litigious age, it is also a case that the documents are not just there for safety, they will be scrutinized by lawyers for loopholes and to blame someone should the worst things happen.

    My worry is that a claims lawyer or an insurance company could ride a coach and horses through that document which is fine as a non prescriptive statement of good intentions, but it is not a definitive checklist of imperatives and actions detailing on whom responsibility falls in order to determine whether rules are broken, indeed to make sure they are not. Some are impossible to achieve because of lack of legal precision or normal qualifications such as "in as far as is reasonably possible" or in safety legislation "reasonably practicable" tends to be used in place of "reasonably possible"

    Take a very simple example. The start of the borrowdale race, down that horrible stony cobbled path, where if you leave a gap of more than a foot somebody jumps to the gap in front. If you do not leave a gap you cannot see, and I and many others have tripped and fallen because of it. Fortunately no serious injury yet, but certainly a few bangs and scrapes. Serious could certainly happen.

    Point is the borrowdale race organiser is ipso facto apparently in violation of rule3. The field size (if greater than one or two) is such that there clearly is a risk of accidents caused by overcrowding in that first half mile, ie the field is too big for the course according to that rule as it stands.

    The rules are so much hot air until the day, somebody has a serious injury, goes headlong, bashes a rock with a head after which serious even debilitating injuries could happen. Then some smartarse prat of a lawyer will point out just how weak that document is, and how the organiser was negligent for failing to put on a race that complied with rule 3, that path was overcrowded and not an adequate route for the size of the field, ergo his clients injuries are the fault of the demonstrable negligence of the RO for failing to put on a safe race as per rulebook.
    Ker ching. Thousands of pounds of claims and costs. Tens or more if you are unlucky.

    Since the standard of proof is "balance of probability" not "beyond reasonable doubt" the threshold is low for these worms of lawyers who try to wring society dry by taking such claims on conditional fee.

    It needed the "in as far as is reasonably practicable" to make it workable as a rule book. That case the organiser telling everyone "to watch themselves and not go mad in the first half mile, it is cobbled and people can and do trip", is a reasonably practicable option for trying to manage inevitable early overcrowding because of the size of the field.

    Without such a rider, if ever an organiser does lose control of monitoring for whatever reason he is now seemingly in violation of the rule 3. And so on.

    Race organisers cannot guarantee a safe race or guarantee to comply with the imperatives implicit in rule 3. They can only be expected to do what is reasonably possible to achieve that.

    There are also many cases where it fails to translate good intentions into auditable actions.

    Take "competitors MUST know what to do at check points". Who is mandated by that? If they do not know what to do, is that a failing of the organiser? the competitor? the marshall? Who is to blame if it all fails and goes pear shaped? How can you prove that somebody "knew" and who is responsible if they did not. If they forget as a result of age or conditions or hypoxia from running too hard, have they breached the rule? It should be translated as auditable actions. I rarely see the word "Know" in contracts for the reason of it being hard to determine, and on the rare occasions I have it is qualified with "Knew or reasonably should have known"

    It would have been better to define a procedure, not an intention or outcome of "knowing" for example:

    "The race organiser shall by means of written instruction on a registration form to be signed by all competitors, declare the procedure for checking numbers to be followed by competitors and marshalls at checkpoints . A separate notice where applicable shall be shown to all competitors of any changes made on the day to advertised route ,advertised kit requirements or advertised checkpoints and procedures for them before signing a registration form . Competitors must familiarise themselves with those procedures. By signing the registration form, all competitors agree that they shall follow all procedure laid down there, the rules of FRA competition in general, and any reasonable instructions of marshalls or organiser. Marshalls shall also sign to say they have seen the procedures agreed for the day, and thereby agree to use all reasonable endeavours to operate the procedures laid down as above. By signing marshalls further agree that should it become impossible or no longer practicable to follow the procedures, or should the procedures not have been followed in respect of or by any or all competitors, to inform the race organiser by the earliest reasonable means of that failure, consistent with needing to continue manning the checkpoint until otherwise instructed or relieved, or the duty is complete.


    Whatever.
    Point is you know who is supposed to be doing what.
    If the competitors do not "Know" after that (dozy sods, many of them, in one ear and out the other), it is not the fault of the RO, the marshalls or the FRA. You have the audit trail to prove you told them. A lot of corporate safety arse cov ering is now like that. Proving when you trained somebody what to do,so you are not to blame when they do the opposite.

    I do not presume to advise anyone on what the rules should be, I only suggest that they should be a statement of actions not intent, sufficient to determine who is responsible for what in procedures.

    But the one that I picked up on applied to me. Clearly mistlite 130 are still being "marketed as waterproof" by both PeteBLand and stated as compliant by innovate, whether or not they are (not). So that the form of words "marketed as" could be a problem in the hands of one of these nasty little worms of claims lawyers.

    That is why I think the wording needs to be more contractual and less a statement of good intentions - of which the proverb says the road to hell is paved.

    Before anyone asks, no I am not a lawyer, not able or implying I am giving advice, nor am I advising. I simply state a personal opinion, which may be wrong.

    But I was a company secretary of a plc and responsible for contractual matters, and director of a bespoke contracting company, creating many custom contracts a year for services and actions of people, so I know a lot about how people can drive coaches and horses through wording that is not robust enough. Which prompts my comment, the document is too woolly for my liking, and I worry what one of these nasty little claims lawyers could do with it, if something bad happens and he sensed a payday.

    I was also a technical director responsible for development of and operation of some very nasty automated equipment so ended up studying operational safety and legislation, became the responsible safety person for that growing company, and have a certificate to prove it somewhere!

    So in the effort to reduce the possibilities of an adverse claim, I actually think the lack of precision could make matters worse should push come to shove.
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 03-10-2013 at 06:42 PM.

  2. #442
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    That sounds like a committee member of the future to me...

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak View Post
    That sounds like a committee member of the future to me...
    Those were exactly my thoughts, half way through AI's passionate post.

    Now AI, I am assuming that what you are eloquently saying to us is a regurgitation of what you even more eloquently communicated to the committee in writing during the consultation stage (between draft and final document). Please don't tell me I'm being naive.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by OB1 View Post
    Those were exactly my thoughts, half way through AI's passionate post.

    Now AI, I am assuming that what you are eloquently saying to us is a regurgitation of what you even more eloquently communicated to the committee in writing during the consultation stage (between draft and final document). Please don't tell me I'm being naive.
    I have just been culling the folder of suggestions I received from bodies like WFRA and individuals on the draft document.

    Several issues were included into the final document as a direct result of ideas suggested by the runners who contacted me.

    There were 20 of them.
    Last edited by Graham Breeze; 03-10-2013 at 11:26 PM.

  5. #445
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    I'm surprised there were so many made the effort when I saw that you were handling the input Graham. That's not to besmirch your knowledge or experience, but anyone who has seen the forum and how you handle those who hold an alternative opinion may well put people off trying.

    AI - makes a lot of sense what you say.
    At the FRA permitted relays I held in February I flashed "under FRA Rules" all over the entry form and advised that runners should have full kit available and yet one athlete who happened to be team captain expressed concern that it was a bit "felly".
    I pointed out said athletes signature on the entry form - well yes I know said the athlete, but when I saw it was at Witton Park I didn't expect ......

    I took it as a compliment

    But it does go to show how little sometimes is taken in of the information that is put out.
    Last edited by Witton Park; 12-10-2013 at 09:16 AM.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I'm surprised there were so many made the effort when I saw that you were handling the input Graham. That's not to besmirch your knowledge or experience, but anyone who has seen the forum and how you handle those who hold an alternative opinion may well put people off trying.
    .

    The FRA is a democratic organisation, not an oligarchy and I always respect alternative intelligent opinion.

    People who took the trouble to write, some several pages of comments, were serious. They knew that their views would be treated with respect and they were. They took time and made the effort to argue their point and several of them will have the satisfaction of knowing that their suggestions have affected the document that will now apply to over 7000 fell runners, including you.

    They followed the requested consultative process so that half a dozen people in the sub-committee could read their views initially prior to potentially the full FRA Committee.

    I believe only one correspondent also posted his views on the Forum.

    Perhaps the others just don't like show business?

  7. #447
    alwaysinjured
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    Quote Originally Posted by OB1 View Post
    Those were exactly my thoughts, half way through AI's passionate post.

    Now AI, I am assuming that what you are eloquently saying to us is a regurgitation of what you even more eloquently communicated to the committee in writing during the consultation stage (between draft and final document). Please don't tell me I'm being naive.
    Not so. I am not a committee kind of person, nor wanting to become one.

    There are many race organisers who are far better placed to make comment on how the rules could and should be improved.

    I had also assumed that any draft document pooling the best of ideas would not become published, before being scrutinized and redrafted by someone taking a more legalistic viewpoint of the potential of the document to minimize or aggravate future negligence claims against organisers and even marshalls, which must be a critical consideration in the light of recent events.

    Also to ensure procedures are robust enough to give proper audit paper trails for organisers to not only fulfill their obligations but also to allow them to demonstrate they have at a future date in keeping with safety legislation.

    I can only say I am alarmed that that does not appear to have taken place, as demonstrable by the concepts used, the lack of legal precision /robust wording or definive procedures or checklists. It seems to me to leave organisers very exposed in event of a claim, as my simple example indicated: it is a wide ranging non prescriptive buck pass from the FRA to organisers and marshalls, rather than a rigorous attempt to protect all concerned.

    However...

    Apparently posting such thoughts here is viewed as a like of "show business" according to the last post!?
    Rather than what it actually was - a serious attempt to get those involved to reconsider and get a professional view and opinion, before making a potentially expensive mistake. I have aired a view. That document is IMHO amateurish. I had assumed the essence of it , once ideas were pooled from the various interest groups, would be drafted in more robust legalese, but I was wrong.

    Witton - it was precisely your thinking aired above that kept me out of this debate and does not encourage my further involvement.

    I say again, I am offering unqualified opinion, not legal advice: and since I hate "show business" , I will quietly disappear from the thread.
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 04-10-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  8. #448
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    'Consultation', damned if you do and damned if you don't....
    ...clearly many of us (including all the last few posts) are guilty of making naive assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysinjured View Post
    .... I will quietly disappear from the thread.
    That's made my day, I'm tickled pink!

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post

    But it does go to show how little sometimes is taken in of the information that is put out.
    tell me about it...

    some of the many excuses received at Edale Kitcheck

    "this Buff is my Hood"

    "Does full water proof body cover mean thermals"

    "I'm using my phone for mapping"

    "I'm using the compass on my phone"

    "why do I need to carry food"

    " This base ball cap is my hat...it goes on my head....!"

    I guess you can't trust people to read and understand what they sign.

  10. #450
    "Always Injured" gives extremely wise advice. Proceedings at a recent inquest made it very clear that race organisers will continue to be vulnerable to over-prescriptive requirements. The latest changes to the rules and requirements will put UKA and FRA into a stronger position to demonstrate their regulation, and race organisers will be more vulnerable trying to show how they have complied when subject to a ruthless audit. Ask any marshal or organiser who attended the inquest. If rules and requirements cannot be complied with, or are treated with contempt by some, they will have unintended consequences. This is a risk sport.

    Accusing AI of "show business" is not wise.

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