New safety rules

[wynn]

this is me..... not hiding behind an avatar...
my take on this is.

Why has the FRA not mentioned what Coroner said, regarding the RO's role in the tragedy.

why are the FRA committee not asking all RO's what they think or need or to at least ask for ideas.

For us we instantly have problems with the numbering system proposed - we allocate numbers in advance (pre race online entry) so we can pre print our labels - this means that we always have dropouts leaving gaps from people not turning up... I must say we have never had a problem and feel with 8 races and 600+ runners it would be difficult to do this on the day.

As for the bit about hazards - anyone coming down from Catbells will know it's a hazard - it don't matter which way you look at it or the rock steps on Robinson or other places on the way to different checkpoints... so how can I say there are no hazards and how can the FRA accept my form in the knowledge that it is so.

So what I've done is asked for clarification from a litigation lawyer and an assessment of my risk.. ( I would like to live in my house for a very long time and leave it to my kids) I'm also looking at private public liability insurance.

What do other RO's think - Are any of you feeling vulnerable about these new rules

[IainR]

this is me..... not hiding behind an avatar...
my take on this is.

Why has the FRA not mentioned what Coroner said, regarding the RO's role in the tragedy.

why are the FRA committee not asking all RO's what they think or need or to at least ask for ideas.

For us we instantly have problems with the numbering system proposed - we allocate numbers in advance (pre race online entry) so we can pre print our labels - this means that we always have dropouts leaving gaps from people not turning up... I must say we have never had a problem and feel with 8 races and 600+ runners it would be difficult to do this on the day.

As for the bit about hazards - anyone coming down from Catbells will know it's a hazard - it don't matter which way you look at it or the rock steps on Robinson or other places on the way to different checkpoints... so how can I say there are no hazards and how can the FRA accept my form in the knowledge that it is so.

So what I've done is asked for clarification from a litigation lawyer and an assessment of my risk.. ( I would like to live in my house for a very long time and leave it to my kids) I'm also looking at private public liability insurance.

What do other RO's think - Are any of you feeling vulnerable about these new rules

I was under the impression, regarding the coroners report, that the process isn't finished so would expect an FRA level response once they get the report? didn't the Grumps suggest that?

Would becoming a ltd company help you? I don't know how expensive they are to set up but I presume that was why the FRA became one?

[LissaJous]

For us we instantly have problems with the numbering system proposed - we allocate numbers in advance (pre race online entry) so we can pre print our labels - this means that we always have dropouts leaving gaps from people not turning up... I must say we have never had a problem and feel with 8 races and 600+ runners it would be difficult to do this on the day.

Don't screw up..

As for the bit about hazards - anyone coming down from Catbells will know it's a hazard - it don't matter which way you look at it or the rock steps on Robinson or other places on the way to different checkpoints... so how can I say there are no hazards and how can the FRA accept my form in the knowledge that it is so.

So what I've done is asked for clarification from a litigation lawyer and an assessment of my risk.. ( I would like to live in my house for a very long time and leave it to my kids) I'm also looking at private public liability insurance.

Would becoming a ltd company help you? I don't know how expensive they are to set up but I presume that was why the FRA became one?

Is either the public liability or the LTD company status likely to protect an RO, if found negligent according to the FRA's rules?

[Witton Park]

Wynn - you can see that like you I have sought legal advise. That advise indicates that I am at a greater risk than I need to be and that in the opinion of my legal advise, some of the paperwork could be withdrawn and other parts rewritten.
We all know there are hazards in races and I love your AW race and I'm aware of the issues you raise relevant to it.

In my opinion, based on what I have been told, it would be better to have a written overview of the types of hazards that might be encountered in each race, perhaps downloadable as a PDF from the FRA Website and/or available on the day. Then you can draw the attention to the the fact that in AW they will have to climb a small rocky section on Robinson, Shimmy off Catbells and perhaps also that DaleHead descent has a few sudden drops on certain lines.
That way Volenti is more likely to apply because it would be difficult for a runner to claim they didn't know that they would encounter such hazards.

[IainR]

Don't screw up..



Is either the public liability or the LTD company status likely to protect an RO, if found negligent according to the FRA's rules?

I'm not sure about public, professional liability does. But thats expensive, and you must stay within your remit. As I understand it its only when outside of your remit, say an ML guiding a high grade scramble.. or LiFR guiding a run on somewhere like Snowdon... that you would be up shit creak because you have misrepresented your qualifications.

[Madeleine]

From the FRA homepage -

A sub-group of the Executive Committee has been formed to review aspects of safety in FRA fell races. A single document has been produced in DRAFT which brings together the various documents on this subject and will, in its final form, be included in the 2014 Calendar & Handbook. Changes relate to eg competition numbers, race monitoring (eg greater utilisation of FRA radios) and waterproof being the core kit standard kit (rather than windproof).
Draft document
Members are now invited to submit any observations to [email protected]

All members of the FRA were given the chance to give comments in July. It was also included in the Executive Committee report at the AGM and there was a chance to discuss at the AGM (both in the formal business and at the end of the AGM in the informal discussion).

I, and a number of other Executive Committee members, have read all of this thread as it has been happening. I have sought legal advice and there are a small number of amendments to make to the FRA Safety Requirements in the light of comments made on this forum, from the advice and from talking to fellrunners and Race Organisers over the last couple of months. We may need to make further changes in the light of the letter from the Coroner. We are still waiting for the letter.

I appreciate that the timing is not great: we need to get the Handbook ready for the beginning of the year.

We are listening, and will give you an update when we have the complete picture.

[wynn]

All members of the FRA were given the chance to give comments in July. It was also included in the Executive Committee report at the AGM and there was a chance to discuss at the AGM (both in the formal business and at the end of the AGM in the informal discussion).

I, and a number of other Executive Committee members, have read all of this thread as it has been happening. I have sought legal advice and there are a small number of amendments to make to the FRA Safety Requirements in the light of comments made on this forum, from the advice and from talking to fellrunners and Race Organisers over the last couple of months. We may need to make further changes in the light of the letter from the Coroner. We are still waiting for the letter.

I appreciate that the timing is not great: we need to get the Handbook ready for the beginning of the year.

We are listening, and will give you an update when we have the complete picture.

1. I don't seem to have been included in the invite to comment in July
2. on holiday for the AGM.
3. wonder why you would expect anyone to agree to sign up for next years races when it's not clear what they're signing up to!!!!

[Witton Park]

Madeleine - I think any ROs reading this forum will appreciate your response and I for one will consider the advise I've been given and then write to the committee as I know they are doing their best to look after the sport in difficult conditions.

Wynn - you make a good point about being asked. We were asked to comment on one document I think - and of course there are a set of documents and so what we were asked to comment on was only part of the whole package and now seeing the whole package together, some legitimate concerns have been raised, that I initially didn't see.
So if nothing else I am pleased that this debate has alerted me and many others to things that may have been overlooked without this thread.

[wynn]

Madeleine, contrary to popular belief I do have a life and I don't view the forums for weeks on end - sorry I missed this. but can I suggest that if you need to contact race organisers you use their email as you do for other things like registering their races.

Just had a thought....
1. I can't see how the FRA could except my signed rules/guidelines form for entry to the Calendar, they must know that I cannot comply to their rules/guidelines.

2. The Scottish FRA has insurance cover for races across the UK not just Scotland, Welsh FRA and Bofra just might be an alternative to the FRA

[wynn]

Wynn - you can see that like you I have sought legal advise. That advise indicates that I am at a greater risk than I need to be and that in the opinion of my legal advise, some of the paperwork could be withdrawn and other parts rewritten.
We all know there are hazards in races and I love your AW race and I'm aware of the issues you raise relevant to it.

In my opinion, based on what I have been told, it would be better to have a written overview of the types of hazards that might be encountered in each race, perhaps downloadable as a PDF from the FRA Website and/or available on the day. Then you can draw the attention to the the fact that in AW they will have to climb a small rocky section on Robinson, Shimmy off Catbells and perhaps also that DaleHead descent has a few sudden drops on certain lines.
That way Volenti is more likely to apply because it would be difficult for a runner to claim they didn't know that they would encounter such hazards.

Thanks WP you make me smile!!
I could convince someone to run all our race routes with a camcorder and post them on the website as a rolling video - would that work.. then the onus would be on the runner to watch it.. but would we then be liable for eyetests!!!