New safety rules

[Fellhound]

And that's why they have been scrutinised by solicitors on behalf of the Fra

Once again, for the benefit of those who missed the numerous references earlier in the thread... the interests of the FRA (or UKA) are not necessarily the same as those of the RO. In a court situation the rules may protect the FRA perfectly adequately (which is what the solicitors in question are checking) but could be used AGAINST the race organiser.

What this whole thread is about is writing the rules in a way that minimises the chances of that happening.

[IanDarkpeak]

perhaps the issue with the 'rules' is not the rules themselves but failure to enforce them by the FRA and RO.

if no one was allowed to start a race without the number in the appropriate postion and anyone who finished a race or arrived at a cp without the number in the appropriate positionwas immediately DNF / DQ then i suspect the issue would be resolved immediately

race numbers are for the competitors safety there not an accessory to be worn as and where a runner sees fit. just because the competitor may see himself as experienced and able the marshall may not have the benifit of such a background and numbers in the same position on every competitor can only support thier role and in doing so make the competition safer for all.

as far as I'm aware any incident reported to the FRA is enforced. FRA disciplinary committee take it very serious.
The problem is most RO/marshall do not enforce beyond the occasional disq.

Edale Skyline RO shows no such compulsion. He's quite clear on the matter just read the race registration notes. you flaunt the rules you will be disq, reported and banned from all future races. Kit check is thorough(every one).

Interested to know what people think about sample kitchecks at start line. 5%,10%,20% how many? do you do.

[OB1]

Marshalls should be in place first and foremost for runner safety.
What rolls can they realistically fulfil to ensure that the runners are safe without having an influence on the results as after all it is a race.
eg. If someone (as I've seen) passes a CP and starts heading in the wrong direction should a marshall get involved, perhaps saving a lost athlete, or should they just let them proceed as route choice is clearly the athlete's decision unless compulsory flagged.
I can't see that I would have a need to ask any marshalls on my course to record numbers but I do have perhaps more marshalls per km than almost any other fell race.
I'd best stop, because the potential roll of a marshall is so varied, and the best use of those marshalls should be down to the RO and "the Roll of the Race Marshall" probably could warrant a thread of it's own.

I am sure most Marshals would appreciate the chance to consume lots of rolls whilst on the hill, even if that is not actually their central role in proceedings. But I have this vision of Marshals rolling down the hill from the CP after proceedings, surely that is not very safe.

[Witton Park]

as far as I'm aware any incident reported to the FRA is enforced. FRA disciplinary committee take it very serious.
The problem is most RO/marshall do not enforce beyond the occasional disq.

Edale Skyline RO shows no such compulsion. He's quite clear on the matter just read the race registration notes. you flaunt the rules you will be disq, reported and banned from all future races. Kit check is thorough(every one).

Interested to know what people think about sample kitchecks at start line. 5%,10%,20% how many? do you do.

Rubbish, the FRA has shied away from punishing under age junior runners in senior races for years. That was all discussed in the other not quite as long-winded thread when we had the junior age group changes.
I saw juniors in races sometimes 3 years below the ROs age limit and I'm almost 100% certain that the parent or guardian that entered those kids put a false DOB on there.
The FRA didn't want to penalise juniors.
They should have barred the club for 3 months from all races - oh hang on perhaps the worst offending clubs were those with very high profile committee members.

OK they deal with the odd kit infringement, or senior running with someone else's number, but they have had a pick-and-mix approach to discipline which doesn't help their credibility.

[Witton Park]

as far as I'm aware any incident reported to the FRA is enforced. FRA disciplinary committee take it very serious.
The problem is most RO/marshall do not enforce beyond the occasional disq.

Edale Skyline RO shows no such compulsion. He's quite clear on the matter just read the race registration notes. you flaunt the rules you will be disq, reported and banned from all future races. Kit check is thorough(every one).

Interested to know what people think about sample kitchecks at start line. 5%,10%,20% how many? do you do.

Rubbish (sorry Ian nothing personal) the FRA has shied away from punishing under age junior runners in senior races for years. That was all discussed in the other not quite as long-winded thread when we had the junior age group changes.
I saw juniors in races sometimes 3 years below the ROs age limit and I'm almost 100% certain that the parent or guardian that entered those kids put a false DOB on there.
The FRA didn't want to penalise juniors.
They should have barred the club for 3 months from all races - oh hang on perhaps the worst offending clubs were those with very high profile committee members.

OK they deal with the odd kit infringement, or senior running with someone else's number, but they have had a pick-and-mix approach to discipline which doesn't help their credibility.

[Alan]

They should have barred the club for 3 months from all races - oh hang on perhaps the worst offending clubs were those with very high profile committee members.

I've been on the Disciplinary Committee for many years now, and I don't think that any of this is true. That's quite a serious accusation. Can you please let me, or better still, the FRA Secretary know the details.

[OB1]

I saw juniors in races sometimes 3 years below the ROs age limit and I'm almost 100% certain that the parent or guardian that entered those kids put a false DOB on there.
The FRA didn't want to penalise juniors.

No doubt its true that parents / clubs have knowingly broken rules in this manner from time to time. But I wonder, has the RO always known this at the time, and if they have, I wonder, have they reported it to the FRA for disciplinary action? I guess its fair to say the FRA disciplinary committee is not telepathic. Maybe the problem lies in the detection and reporting? Just a thought, I have no evidence of my own other than having witnessed 'lax' RO entry desks for juniors from time to time.

[noel]

you say that Lefty, but the current paperwork applies equally to the 30 runner events as the 900 runner events, hence Noel has ditched his little race.

That's largely due to the extra complexities of running a relay that hands over in a different place with no means of communicating with the handover. And as I've said previously this wasn't insurmountable (probably needing an additional 2 marshals and a back-marker), but would have required a small extra effort on my and the marshal's part, and I couldn't really be bothered for such a small race, having recently taken on a larger race - Shutlingsloe. I only mentioned it to let people know that at least some race organisers were reading the rules and thinking what it meant to them.

[Witton Park]

I've been on the Disciplinary Committee for many years now, and I don't think that any of this is true. That's quite a serious accusation. Can you please let me, or better still, the FRA Secretary know the details.

So you don't know that eventually a letter was sent out to some clubs warning them about this matter?

[Witton Park]

No doubt its true that parents / clubs have knowingly broken rules in this manner from time to time. But I wonder, has the RO always known this at the time, and if they have, I wonder, have they reported it to the FRA for disciplinary action? I guess its fair to say the FRA disciplinary committee is not telepathic. Maybe the problem lies in the detection and reporting? Just a thought, I have no evidence of my own other than having witnessed 'lax' RO entry desks for juniors from time to time.

This goes back to the age rules debate.

I think largely the ROs were innocent in this as it is the parent or club that put incorrect age details on the entry slip rather than the RO permitting this.