Safety Matters

[OB1]

So shoot me

WP - Thanks for satisfying me - in post 54 and post 57.
Graham - likewise, in advance? Re #51 and #56
(assuming no one gets the hump/grump and starts deleting posts..)

[Witton Park]

WP - Thanks for satisfying me - in post 54 and post 57.
Graham - likewise, in advance? Re #51 and #56
(assuming no one gets the hump/grump and starts deleting posts..)

Intrigued that you mention Graham and the Grump in the same post

[OB1]

Your imagination runs wild.....
T'was a small 'g' not a large 'G'.

[IanDarkpeak]

[QUOTE=Lecky;579610] How is this to happen at a typical A Long with no road crossings? You have 200 runners, all of whom set off at the same time. A fast runner passes CP1 and 2 fine, but goes off course on the way to CP3. He loses 30 minutes, but carries on. Rather than being in tenth he is now 150th. What systems that we normally use are going to locate him? CP3 has runners coming through from 60' in to 180' in to the race. Marshals are taking numbers the whole time. When can they communicate back to the Race HQ about who has gone through?

[QUOTE]

Difficult but not impossible. We can pinpoint a runner to 5 minute block at any cp on the trigger and Grin and bear it. Admittedly we have the resources of the rescue team.

[IanDarkpeak]

The people you are speaking about are all experienced people with personal integrity. The idea that Graham or Madeleine can somehow stop them from expressing their views seems pretty farcical to me.

If these ROs were horrified with the guidelines, they'd probably say it - wouldn't they? They might have some misgivings and differences of opinion, but that's the way of things on committees.

Thank you Noel for me the best post on the thread, I feel a little disappointed in some of the early posts...

[alwaysinjured]

[QUOTE=Graham Breeze;579651]

Perhaps people should look at their safety document that has to be signed off a week before the race, available here. /QUOTE]

I have taken an interest in the SHR Race Organisers Pack which still includes:
Race Monitoring and Rescue Procedures

Progress of the race must be monitored in such a way that you are always in a position to make a reasoned judgement as to the need to abandon the race or call out the rescue services.

When the FRA reviewed its Safety Requirements for 2014 it concluded that achieving "must" and "always" was virtually impossible (outside the 3 Peaks Race) and so the 2014 FRA version starts:

(10.2) "Must use reasonably practicable measures to monitor runners in Long/Medium A and Long B races... and then goes on to specifically highlight the use of "critical points" ie recognizing that all CPs are not the same in terms of runner safety.

It is the view of the FRA that its 2014 Safety Requirements are far more RO supportive/ friendly that any other version.

No doubt others will post their disagreement on here. Opinion is free.

But I would point out that the RO for the Ian Hodgson Relay, Borrowdale, Sedbergh Hills, Kentmere, Buttermere Sailbeck and Coledale Horseshoe (up to 2013) etc sit on the FRA Committee. Most of them attended the Brian Belfield Inquest and I know they looked at the 2014 Safety Requirements from the realism of "what if I am defending myself in an Inquest in future" before they agreed them.

A misrepresentation as always.
Why can't you tell the truth? Pete bland was vociferous in opposition.
Ask scoffer to show you his emails to Andy to see that he is not as happy as you claim.
Brett has dared to state on here he is not happy either. And so on.
You seem to think shouting them down ( or not listening to them, whichever) is the same as them all agreeing.

And - like you graham - they have little or no knowledge or experience of professional safety management, so are not the ones best placed to determine the best way to protect themselves or manage safety. Your "adviser" has been no help on that either. He did not find that precedent I cited earlier - or if he did he failed to make any allowance for it in your precious rules. And regardless of him a couple of ( unconflicted)claims solicitors asked by Ro have said there are problems, at least one pointing at your stupid and impossible clause on " no foreseeable risk of accidents" which is clearly a problem for scoffer.

By the way - does your hubris extend to messing with your gas boiler too? On the grounds you have the RIGHT to make it up as you go along on things you know nothing about? , (sod the responsibility of course) And you have the right to your own opinion on what all those technical words mean as well? Do you believe a committee majority of people who know little or nothing can override proper practice on gas safety too?

[OB1]

Difficult but not impossible. We can pinpoint a runner to 5 minute block at any cp on the trigger and Grin and bear it. Admittedly we have the resources of the rescue team.

Ian, a request for clarification.
I interpret what you are saying is that ONCE a runner goes through the CP you can pinpoint her/him to within 5 minutes at that CP. Sounds fair.
As opposed to what happens SHOULD a runner go AWOL BETWEEN CPs? Surely in that situation you can't then pinpoint them to 5 minutes? correct? You know to within 5 minutes when they went through the last CP but not where they are?

On the Trigger I bailed out after CP2 (Crowden) whilst climbing L-Edge, way before the safety of CP3 (Higher Shelf Trig) or even before the Marshals at Bleaklow Head - after getting severe cramp ascending LE. I recognised my situation and wisely retraced my steps and sought the safety of Crowden and the WMRT, rather than stumble on towards BH and Snake. But if I had stumbled on, I doubt that I would have been on any 5-minute radar until I reached BH / Snake? The Crowden Marshals were great (indeed fabulous), but were hardly anticipating my retreat within a 5-minute window.

Apologies If I have misunderstood you. Just seeking clarification.

PS, I could be wrong but from what I have read I think Wheeze is thinking/talking about trialling a more active/dynamic monitoring system / philosophy in AL/BL races? i.e. between CP?

[Graham Breeze]

[QUOTE=alwaysinjured;579719]

Your "adviser" has been no help on that either. He did not find that precedent I cited earlier

Mike,

You may need to read the Daily Mirror to learn about the real world but, rest assured, the FRA Committee and everyone else who needed to consider the ramifications of the XC death have known about it since day 1; so you may go back to telling untruths (Brett unhappy? Well I was chatting with him two nights ago about you), dodging difficult questions and dreaming about world safety domination.

.

[alwaysinjured]

[QUOTE=Graham Breeze;579726]

Mike,

You may need to read the Daily Mirror to learn about the real world but, rest assured, the FRA Committee and everyone else who needed to consider the ramifications of the XC death have known about it since day 1; so you may go back to telling untruths (Brett unhappy? Well I was chatting with him two nights ago about you), dodging difficult questions and dreaming about world safety domination.

.

I have no dreams of dominating anything Graham.I had and have no wish to get involved in this, but it is clearly necessary that someone like me does, and I was offering my help only because there appeared and still appears to be no competent person involved. Delusions of grandeur and unfulfilled need for authority are for such as you and Madeleine.
I have had enough stress from potentially culpable authority over hazardous things to last me a lifetime. It is clear nothing will improve till you and her move on, or change attitude dramatically,

So then - to the point, If you were aware of that incident why have you failed to act on it in a competent way in advising RO? Where is the published incident review report? Why were you unaware of the grand raid incident till I pointed it out?

PS Brett States on here in the clearest way possible he is not happy doing the checks and " mollycoddling" you demand. I am simply repeating what he wrote here. Sad to say the bit he is happy with ( FRA demanding he dictates kit) is the part he should be unhappier with! Presume you have disciplined Brett as per our rules demand? Or do you only do that to those who blow whistles such as Andy? Selective rule enforcement.

You need to get used to something Graham. Sailbeck happened and a runner was undetected as missing on your watch and legacy as chair precisely because you did and have done nothing in appointing either a properly tasked safety officer, or a competent person to instruct RO on how to manage and plan safety. Sailbeck was as much as anyone your fault - and in a corporate safety context were the RO your employee then your actions as the big cheese ( or in this case the total lack of them ) would have been as much under investigation as the RO and rightly so.

[alwaysinjured]

[QUOTE=IanDarkpeak;579716][QUOTE=Lecky;579610] How is this to happen at a typical A Long with no road crossings? You have 200 runners, all of whom set off at the same time. A fast runner passes CP1 and 2 fine, but goes off course on the way to CP3. He loses 30 minutes, but carries on. Rather than being in tenth he is now 150th. What systems that we normally use are going to locate him? CP3 has runners coming through from 60' in to 180' in to the race. Marshals are taking numbers the whole time. When can they communicate back to the Race HQ about who has gone through?

Difficult but not impossible. We can pinpoint a runner to 5 minute block at any cp on the trigger and Grin and bear it. Admittedly we have the resources of the rescue team.

I asked a question once Ian. Never got an answer. If a runner went off route across brown knoll in thick clag headed towards mount famine from mam nick , ending up at the hayfield road a long time later, getting back to edale many hours late at the end - how long would it be in practice before you deemed it necessary to call out search? What is your policy? Not a trick question , just interested. It is complicated by the overtaking - I have overtaken scores of people across that section in the past because I start slow and the ones who start too fast pay for it there as a queue of walking dead sothe order gets shaken up I Imagine, But at what point do you decide to act?