Safety Matters

[Mark G]

I'm personally very against the idea of certification for fell running as in diving - it was a large part of the reason I gave up diving years ago to concentrate more on running (that and the small return in time actually spent in the water compared to the expense, hassle and bureaucracy of getting there, I realise its different nowadays with drysuits and rebreathers etc, which has been nearly enough to tempt me back. Its more complicated but the returns are greater, justifying the need (Malin Head wrecks? Port Napier was regarded as a serious dive in the 1970s!).
I would like to think that fell running operates in a similar way to climbing, ie you go out with a more experienced mate who (literally) shows you the ropes, you build experience, you begin leading, you move up the grades but nobody asks you for a log book or qualifications unless you are instructing other people for money. And many people come in to fell running from a mountain background and already have a lot of the skills and knowledge needed to operate safely in that environment. Perhaps this is what has changed - runners taking to the fells instead of walkers/climbers extending their activities to running?

[Dave_Mole]

at the end of the day, the fells are a hostile environment: no amount of experience, training, certification or mandatory kit will save someone (anyone) from having an accident, which is what seems to have happened to Brian Bellfield, an experienced runner who belonged to a club. The onus is, and always has been that it's the runners responsibility to take care of themselves, but accidents happen.....

The current issue, which has arisen out of the Bellfield inquest, is how to protect those who put on races from becoming liable to prosecution due to "negligence", which can be "demonstrated" by the RO not following the FRA Rules. It's not the dead runner who will be looking to prosecute the RO, but surviving relatives who may know nothing about the risks of fell running.

So, the issue isn't necessarily how to make fell racing/running safer: that's impossible given the nature of the pursuit. The issue is how to make sure that ROs are covered via insurance and a legal safety net which allows obvious risks to be mitigated, whilst still acknowledging the risky nature of racing in the mountains.

Philosophies differ as to how this can be best achieved.

[Witton Park]

WP, google MOOC and see how many Universities are delivering mini university courses at minimal cost.

Course material delivered through videos / presentations using existing case studies (just need a decent presenter!) Examination would be multi-choice. Random 25 questions from a bank of 250 or so. 80% to pass

All done online. Minimal cost after the initial set up.

Questions set and agreed by volunteers with the required experience. I help set exam questions for the Chartered Insurance Institute (albeit paid) - it's not that difficult

I haven't the time.

But who updates it? Who reviews new information, latest incidents, new best practise? This is a constantly changing environment and if we start making it cost, it will b an ongoing cost.

I don't need an exam to go on the fells racing and hope I never do. I know my limitations and go to events based on what those limitations are.

[Sam Harrison]

Good post stick. Ok, so no certification but the principle is a good idea? 'Certification' could be optional but delivering the material could help save a life (ignore the naysayers like wharfee).

So... rather than talk about it, let's make it happen....

I don't have the necessary hillside skills to create the course information although I am good at researching and more than happy to contribute by putting those skills to good use as well as technological skills.

This could be done independently of the FRA et al - just a series of short online videos offering mountainside survival tips and navigational skills. I'm sure there are videos out there, but this would just be to pull them all together.

Would need volunteers....any takers?

I'm really in two minds about this. I side with Stick in shying away from the idea of a certification, as such, but the idea of an online course (or at least source of information) I find very interesting.

A main reason for not liking the idea of certification is that I don't believe a series of questions like you propose would actually tell us much about the competence of a person. Take the driver's theory test for example; that's pretty thorough but you still get a load of knobheads on the road. I've taken part in a fair few outdoor training courses and assessments and I believe the only ones that truly assess a person's competence are ones like the Mountain Leader award for which you have to attend a week-long training course and then pass a week-long assessment. And that's just overkill for fell racing.

A unified and comprehensive source of information about fell running is very appealing to me. There's not a lot of info out there about fell running safety and if you're new to the sport then you currently have to take bits and bobs of information from various sources, some from the world of mountaineering and some from the world of athletics, which isn't always that relevant to fell running.

Don't get me wrong, there is useful information out there (take IanDP's recent navigation and hypothermia articles), but it's hard to come across unless you're already involved in the sport. There needs to be a single point of information; I'm imagining the kind of skills articles you get on UKC or the BMC's website to educate walkers and climbers.

As WP says, it needs to be constantly updated; the outdoor world is an ever-changing place. And the problem with that is we're veering into the world of paying people to write and update the content rather than a group of volunteers contributing an article or two.

It's a tough one...

[Fellhound]

I'm really in two minds about this. I side with Stick in shying away from the idea of a certification, as such, but the idea of an online course (or at least source of information) I find very interesting....

The idea of education and increasing knowledge/awareness is a good one but once you start to formalise it - in any way - it cuts across the basic ethos of fell running to my mind.

As has been said, most gain their knowledge and experience out there on the hill and few come to grief, apart from the odd scrape, so I don't think there's any need for any kind of compulsory "training". It would be anathema to most fell runners I'm sure.

However, a resource that people could access if they wanted to - that would be a good thing.

Ideas like this are the kind of thing the FRA could be thinking about but it's more likely to be explored 'independently'.

[Fellhound]

The current issue, which has arisen out of the Bellfield inquest, is how to protect those who put on races from becoming liable to prosecution due to "negligence", which can be "demonstrated" by the RO not following the FRA Rules. It's not the dead runner who will be looking to prosecute the RO, but surviving relatives who may know nothing about the risks of fell running.

So, the issue isn't necessarily how to make fell racing/running safer: that's impossible given the nature of the pursuit...

Dave, I agree with your post, and your concise summary of the issue. The only bit I take issue with is that making fellrunning safer is impossible. We can make it safer in some ways and we need to show that we continually try to do that. I think you may have meant we can't make it completely 'safe' or 'ensure safety' - nor would we want to.

I agree it's a difficult line to tread though..

[TheHeathens]

I haven't the time.

But who updates it? Who reviews new information, latest incidents, new best practise? This is a constantly changing environment and if we start making it cost, it will b an ongoing cost.

I don't need an exam to go on the fells racing and hope I never do. I know my limitations and go to events based on what those limitations are.

Seems the certification is not a popular idea but thanks to those who contributed constructive arguments.

I still think that the online learning concept is a good idea; aimed at beginners to teach them the basics of safety and navigation by pulling all the relevant information together in one place. Inexperienced race entrants in tough races can be diverted there by ROs if required. There could be a short test afterwards, or not.... It might be a pre-requisite for entry, or not... I'm not an RO - that's not for me to decide.

I foresee a site consisting of a mixture of articles / videos / case studies run by a group of volunteers. Best practice reviewed twice yearly (does the outdoor world really change any faster than that?) which I imagine is more than the face to face training. However, this is not meant to (and could not) replace face to face training or actually getting the experience on the fells!

This is only a concept. I'm not saying that it wouldn't involve a fairly sizeable amount of work initially but I envisage this to be driven by a group of volunteers. We already have loads of people with the knowledge on here - we would just need to co-ordinate that knowledge and make it available to all.

It doesn't have to be run by any of the organising associations although one would hope that they would support such a project.

[Sam Harrison]

The idea of education and increasing knowledge/awareness is a good one but once you start to formalise it - in any way - it cuts across the basic ethos of fell running to my mind.

I think this is the point that I'm really in two minds about. The side of me that's involved in the mountaineering world says great, let's create a comprehensive (and therefore formal) online resource like UKC and the BMC. But then the fell running side of me cringes at the idea; it was the simplicity (for want of a better word) of fell running that attracted it to me in the first place. It was also its relative unpopularity that was appealing, and as others have already said, we don't want to go about publicising it too much (I know I'm a complete hypocrite on that point!).

[Wheeze]

For those who may not have seen it please look at steambunnybluff.co.uk
Would appreciate your feedback here. Am I on the right track or a hiding to nothing?

[TheHeathens]

For those who may not have seen it please look at steambunnybluff.co.uk
Would appreciate your feedback here. Am I on the right track or a hiding to nothing?

I think that is ABSOLUTELY spot on. People taking responsibility for themselves.