Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[Turlough]

Thank god.. I'm also similarly challenged.. but either way it's 6:36 or 6:40.. 10% of 6:00 is 0:36.. so 10% slower is 6:36.. or 6:00/9*10 = 6:40..

which in incidentally what I do most of my long runs at.. well 85-90%.. never worked it out by that just happens to be around 6:35-6:45 pace..

I like the idea of reps in the pace, but that's essentially the old Charlie Spedding session isn't it.. reps at marathon pace with recovery at ~ 1 min off that.. so I do 6 min/mile and 7 min mile recovery..

Apologies those are Renato Canova sessions so ill blame him. He means 10% slower or pace * 1.1

Canovas athletes gradually train more specifically by making the long runs faster and the reps lomger and of greater volume once aerobic power and resistance are developed. Another session he uses In every phase is called alternations. This involves running 20 X 1k alternating paces from around AnThreshold to a little slower than AErobic threshold.4 months out, the session works on improving the AnT k's while keeping the AT splits constant. Next month the AnTs reps are the constant base while the AT splits are improved. 1 session of each kind in the second last month. Last month, fast reps are slowed and slower reps are speeded in an effort to pull the thresholds even closer. Average speed for the session is now marathon race pave or thereabouts.

He mentions two gains from this session. AT is brought as close as posible to AnT. This is one of the fundamental goals of elite marathon training. The session is a 6 pointer though: these elites are burning relstively high amounts of glycogen to finish in just over two hours. This produces some lactic in the muscles, which can potentially be re-used. The body is taught to use the lactic during the slower alternation....i.e the body learns to re-use lactic at around marathon race pace. So this session produces surprisingly better results than youd expect because there is more goimg on under the bonnet. This elite session doesnt translate to us slower runners, because we dont run hard enough at MP to produce enough lactic to have those benefits. A bloody good one for the half though!
And a good on to do up and down a shallow gradient on a good grass surface where the body can learn to flush out lactic before hitting the heavy hill sessions.

[LissaJous]

Canovas athletes gradually train more specifically by making the long runs faster and the reps lomger and of greater volume once aerobic power and resistance are developed. Another session he uses In every phase is called alternations. This involves running 20 X 1k alternating paces from around AnThreshold to a little slower than AErobic threshold.4 months out, the session works on improving the AnT k's while keeping the AT splits constant. Next month the AnTs reps are the constant base while the AT splits are improved. 1 session of each kind in the second last month. Last month, fast reps are slowed and slower reps are speeded in an effort to pull the thresholds even closer. Average speed for the session is now marathon race pave or thereabouts.

And a good one to do up and down a shallow gradient on a good grass surface where the body can learn to flush out lactic before hitting the heavy hill sessions.

A lot in common with my independently-developed approach, which I personally refer to as Pace Interval training. Others have described it similarly for decades.

Move it to a gym-standard 15% treadmill and you're getting close to my 'secret'! On such a gradient, anyone can fill their legs with lactic in one minute if they push the speed up 1 or 2 kph. Then reduce the speed to the fastest speed at which you can recover for one minute. I usually use 2kph differential, eg 8.5/10.5kph (for women you'll be close to English Champ with that.. my first go was at 7.0/8.5 I think ~ a couple of weeks before I have definitive records though). The first time, start slow, aim for 15 minutes, and if it's too easy then keep adding 0.1-0.2kph each session until it's pretty hard.

A big goal of the session is to judge what pace you can manage for the whole 15 minutes from your first 3 minutes (slow/fast/slow).

Believe me, this session hurts if you do it properly! You're working on lactate tolerance, lactate buffering, lactate removal/use, and breathing/chest/heart muscles all in one go, plus maximum running & energy efficiency in your recovery interval.

Eventually, if you go for ultimate pace, you need to maintain good technique in the fast intervals, and leg power/muscle glycogen becomes the limiting factor; at this point it is probably a less effective session & the intervals need serious revision, although I'm more likely to shift training outdoors then.

Like any interval work, it's good in phases of 4-8 weeks max.

[Turlough]

Your entire post was well worth reading a number of times, however the section above for me is key for many runners who only have a limited time to train. (That's probably the majority of athletes.) There is loads of info out there on training plans for elites and those with loads of time, but on the adaptation of those programmes for those on limited time there isn't as much. It is a really interesting topic.

For those faced with a schedule that calls for 5-6 days of running, it can be a difficult decision as to what to drop if you only have 3-4 days a week to train. Yours is good guidance.

Hi Harry

Ive come across one or two schedules for say 20-40 mpw looking to improve in races. Ill try and dig one out.

Turlough - really interesting posts.
just a bit confused by use of % paces
eg
marathon pace = 6 minute mile
90% of marathon pace = ( 6 / 90 ) x 100 = 6:40 minute mile. Correct ?

Sorry Andy, missed your post. It would be 10% slower i.e 6:36 pace, or pace multiplied by 1.1.
The coach in question describes all the paces like this, and i had forgotten the anomaly.

A lot in common with my independently-developed approach, which I personally refer to as Pace Interval training. Others have described it similarly for decades.

Move it to a gym-standard 15% treadmill and you're getting close to my 'secret'! On such a gradient, anyone can fill their legs with lactic in one minute if they push the speed up 1 or 2 kph. Then reduce the speed to the fastest speed at which you can recover for one minute. I usually use 2kph differential, eg 8.5/10.5kph (for women you'll be close to English Champ with that.. my first go was at 7.0/8.5 I think ~ a couple of weeks before I have definitive records though). The first time, start slow, aim for 15 minutes, and if it's too easy then keep adding 0.1-0.2kph each session until it's pretty hard.

A big goal of the session is to judge what pace you can manage for the whole 15 minutes from your first 3 minutes (slow/fast/slow).

Believe me, this session hurts if you do it properly! You're working on lactate tolerance, lactate buffering, lactate removal/use, and breathing/chest/heart muscles all in one go, plus maximum running & energy efficiency in your recovery interval.

Eventually, if you go for ultimate pace, you need to maintain good technique in the fast intervals, and leg power/muscle glycogen becomes the limiting factor; at this point it is probably a less effective session & the intervals need serious revision, although I'm more likely to shift training outdoors then.

Like any interval work, it's good in phases of 4-8 weeks max.

Thats a very tough session!
It sounds very adaptable in that you can work on increasing both speeds or one at a time. If powerf becomes the limiting factor you can keep effectiveness of the session by upping the recovery pace only, to squeeze another session or two out. Do you find the paces get closer together as you go through the sessions? I suppose all is governed by how hard the hard minutes are.
My season starts in mid April, so might get cracking on a few of these before the intervals get longer and very specific.

When you go outdoors do you then use a descent as the "recovery" portion to gradually make the session more specific? Making the reps longer to start working on specific endurance for racing?

Lactate buffering/tolerance and re-use sessions have been around for decades. I guess the difference with Canovas approach to it is that the particlar session is heavily concerned with its re-use @ marathon race pace, which ahd been overlooked for thsi event previously. And any session which slows down the rate of glygogen depletion is gold in an event where this rate is a major limiter of race pace.

[LissaJous]

Thats a very tough session!
It sounds very adaptable in that you can work on increasing both speeds or one at a time. If power becomes the limiting factor you can keep effectiveness of the session by upping the recovery pace only, to squeeze another session or two out. Do you find the paces get closer together as you go through the sessions? I suppose all is governed by how hard the hard minutes are.

In theory, yes, just increase the recovery speed, but realistically one will have to make the hard intervals longer to build up a high lactate state without running too fast ~ in which case the session gets longer. But: (a) I wanted to keep the session focused on the recovery interval, and (b) I wanted to keep a limit on treadmill use. Not to mention (c) I have always preferred, maybe too much, short/fast/repeatable sessions.

When you go outdoors do you then use a descent as the "recovery" portion to gradually make the session more specific? Making the reps longer to start working on specific endurance for racing?

If you have a nice mountain nearby, then I'd use that. I have the Minffordd path up Cader Idris, average gradient well over 20%, uneven stone steps near the bottom and boulders near the top. The various steep sections give me the hard intervals, and you have to keep going as best you can afterwards. I find this a lot more motivating than going up and down a slope. Last time, I sprinted past a large group of people as there was only one small opportunity to get past, and it took me at least 5 minutes to recover! The 25-30 minutes downhill is my plyometrics/be-more-crazy training...

Lactate buffering/tolerance and re-use sessions have been around for decades. I guess the difference with Canovas approach to it is that the particlar session is heavily concerned with its re-use @ marathon race pace, which ahd been overlooked for thsi event previously.

As with mine: the key was to induce recovery from a lactate-heavy state, at a race-relevant pace. I'm surprised no-one had thought to apply it to marathons!

[andy k]

This produces some lactic in the muscles, which can potentially be re-used. The body is taught to use the lactic during the slower alternation....i.e the body learns to re-use lactic at around marathon race pace. So this session produces surprisingly better results than youd expect because there is more goimg on under the bonnet. This elite session doesnt translate to us slower runners, because we dont run hard enough at MP to produce enough lactic to have those benefits. A bloody good one for the half though!
And a good on to do up and down a shallow gradient on a good grass surface where the body can learn to flush out lactic before hitting the heavy hill sessions.

This parallels a key session that i used to do back in the day. I determined the session for the very purpose you identify. Ability to dip into anaerobic effort and then recover whilst still racing hard.

The session started with sharp full effort hill loops - about 10 seconds effort, roll straight back down the hill , so the short hill loop took about 30 seconds
repeat this six times consecutively. At the end of the sixth, no break, continue the climb at high tempo effort (keeping just below anaerobic threshold) - 5 minutes long climb.
Then jog back down to the bottom
repeat the whole lot two more times.
wobble home, eat.
killer session but worth it, broke me a record.

[Turlough]

This parallels a key session that i used to do back in the day. I determined the session for the very purpose you identify. Ability to dip into anaerobic effort and then recover whilst still racing hard.

The session started with sharp full effort hill loops - about 10 seconds effort, roll straight back down the hill , so the short hill loop took about 30 seconds
repeat this six times consecutively. At the end of the sixth, no break, continue the climb at high tempo effort (keeping just below anaerobic threshold) - 5 minutes long climb.
Then jog back down to the bottom
repeat the whole lot two more times.
wobble home, eat.
killer session but worth it, broke me a record.

THese are some hill sprints that Canova advocates for different types of runners. The last one, to increase strenght endurance looks a lot like your idea, so your record breaking methods are backed by current elite marathon coaches! What lenght was the race you targetted?

Agile, high frequency runner: Sprints of 60/100m with a gradient of 15% about, where they push very hard, trying long steps, for developing strenght.

(At the end of every session they go for a run of 400/500m climbing, at their max. speed (only once). This type of training has the task of using soon your strenght in direction of strenght-endurance.

100m or over of sprint, but use a hill of about 8/10 % lasting 20/25 sec. i to improve their frequency, seeking more rapidity with a good reaction in their feet, (that are not very elastic.)

Short sprints of about 40m, with a gradient of more than 30% (ramps), only for improving strenght

Runners already very strong: try to develop STRENGHT-ENDURANCE, no strenght or rapidity, already at good level.

Slim runner with long strides. Use short sprints climbing (about 15% of gradient) twice a week, going with very high knees and high frequency.

Dev. strenght-endurance: At the end of every hill sprint session go for a run of 400/500m climbing, at max. speed (only once). This type of training has the task of using soon your strenght in direction of strenght-endurance.

Thank god.. I'm also similarly challenged.. but either way it's 6:36 or 6:40.. 10% of 6:00 is 0:36.. so 10% slower is 6:36.. or 6:00/9*10 = 6:40..

which in incidentally what I do most of my long runs at.. well 85-90%.. never worked it out by that just happens to be around 6:35-6:45 pace..

I like the idea of reps in the pace, but that's essentially the old Charlie Spedding session isn't it.. reps at marathon pace with recovery at ~ 1 min off that.. so I do 6 min/mile and 7 min mile recovery..

Recovery pace is significantly faster: around 6:40 (only 10% slower than race pace) to make the session more specific and harder (pace is at RP for most of the session and never dropping below 10% RP for the entire session). I took a snapshot of the training paces calculated for a six minute mile marathon for teh different phases. The fundamental phase has a lot of the short medium and long tempo, progression runs as well as sessions, (reps 10k pace at the very fastest, apart from uphill sprints, strides etc). The LOng run you do continues all the way to the specific phase (once every 3 weeks there).


training paces below, also a sample 3 weeks in this article

*Note there is an INtroductory phase of 8-10 weeks before the fundamental phase the elites do which includes circuits mixed with HM paces reps (400s), weights and some long runs.

Some of the sessions arent relvant to anyone slower than 2:10, id wager eg the 45-50 k run, 30k pace run etc. but knowing the progression of session paces through the phases to the race pace sessions are useful i think.
Attachment 6751

[IainR]

Thanks.. will have a read... have a 100k in March so that's dominating but will try to focus on a fall marathon..

[IainR]

Turlough, one thing I always wonder is how many miles a week, during regular training, would you suggest to do at or above MP.. I reckon at the moment I'm in the 5-10% region, unless I have a race on.

At the moment I'm increasing my mileage to consistently 90 a week. Basically it's 1 20+ miler, 1 14/15 miler midweek, 2 effort sessions, reps 2-6 minutes normally, lasting around 25 mins of actual effort, then maybe a different hard session/hills or 4 mile tempo at around 1/2 M pace..

Then days of steady doubles or 8-12 milers at aound 6:30-6:45 pace..

The only quick marathons I've done have been 2:42 but with 1200ft of ascent in both, Boston was flat but 30 Deg C so I ran 2:44, so I reckon I should be aiming 2:36-2:38 ish when I next focus on one..

I now do much more road work or at least good trail, I do most of my running around 6:30-7:30 min miles, so rarely run on the fell, especially in the states, but even in the UK only use fell runs as steady runs a few days a week unless starting to focus on the fells again..

Morning 6-8 milers will normally be done slower, maybe around 8, depends how sore I am. Yesterday for example, raced a half m. trail race sunday so did 6 very easy (9:00's) early on and then 7 last night back at 7:00 as the run progressed as I was feeling better.

[LissaJous]

Turlough, one thing I always wonder is how many miles a week, during regular training, would you suggest to do at or above MP.. I reckon at the moment I'm in the 5-10% region, unless I have a race on.

I'm not complaining about it, but the thread's turning into road running for fellrunners!

An addition to Iain's comments: how much of the training would you expect to be on road? That tends to be a limiting factor for me.

BTW Turlough, remember your specific, specific, specific? What's specific to fell & mountain running is an element of variability, quite a big element if your season includes short and long races. If I've been running my treadmill session, that's a lot of training at 15%. The progression (for me) would be to steeper work outdoors, but for uphill-only races the average gradient is more like 10%, so you'd need speed work on 10% and gentler gradients.

[IainR]

I think much/most? fell running, by many runners is done too slowly.. too easily.. too enjoyable.. its important to enjoy sessions but not too many.. I also used to make the opposite mistake of fell runs therefore being 'easy runs'... so an easy day would be a steady plod up Siabod.. but that's still 2500ft of climbing but more importantly 2500ft of descent..

It is for me, but people stop for pictures and think they are working harder than they are.. we're all different in how we train of course.

On the road its much more honest, no hiding.

Even after long periods of road running I found I could still climb steep things just as well after a few specific sessions, for example for the Ben I used to do efforts on Elidir.. the one thing I lost was descending and find it now takes 2-3 races to get back to a reasonable pace.. but I now descend much slower than I used to on rough stuff.. not sure if that's injuries/wear and tear/sense or lack of specific fell work..