Sub 3 hour Marathon.

OK I wasn’t sure where to post this so I stuck it in here for time being.

I am looking next year to have a crack at a sub 3 hour marathon, yes a road one, shock horror, I am not getting any younger and despite it all somethings just have to be done. :p

I am looking at targeting Manchester and or the Edinburgh, Prior to starting my BG training I did a half in 2012 in 1:23, previous to that I ran my one and only Marathon the London in 3:20 hours in 2010. I am keen to keep as much Hills in as I can because I like them, but also understand that I need a degree of pure speed to crack the 3 hour barrier. I think off the back of my BG I have a good endurance base as an starting point.

Any advice most welcome.

ATB

Tahr

well Edinburgh is a good route and close to you by looks of it. Flat as a pancake route. Your endurance will see u in good stead and if u can run 1:23 half, pace shouldn't be an issue for you... If I were you I certainly wouldn't get bogged down in training plans and all that malarkey, just do plenty 13-18 milers in the few month preceding the race, throw in couple 20-24 milers along the way, a couple of 10k races even parkruns to sharpen u up and you'll be right, go into the race fresh and confident and cruise round, job done

Long run on a Sunday - 16-20, semi long run mid week - 10-12. Plus plenty of tempo runs, up to 20 miles to get your body used to the pace. And lots of mileage between all that.

Some useful advice here ;)

Attachment 7320
Unlike you Tahr, I had never done a marathon until recently when I decided to do one before I am too old for it. The Athens Classic Marathon was my choice and I was not disappointed. The organisation was great and I managed a sub-four hour time, details.

Manchester is a flat course im thinking of doing this next year also, you sound like you have a good base for a sub 3 marra, if you already doing 1:23 for a half im guessing you will be pretty safe. Im around the 1:27 for a half and would be hoping for around 3.15 for a Full.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

OK I wasn’t sure where to post this so I stuck it in here for time being.

I am looking next year to have a crack at a sub 3 hour marathon, yes a road one, shock horror, I am not getting any younger and despite it all somethings just have to be done. :p

I am looking at targeting Manchester and or the Edinburgh, Prior to starting my BG training I did a half in 2012 in 1:23, previous to that I ran my one and only Marathon the London in 3:20 hours in 2010. I am keen to keep as much Hills in as I can because I like them, but also understand that I need a degree of pure speed to crack the 3 hour barrier. I think off the back of my BG I have a good endurance base as an starting point.

Any advice most welcome.

ATB

Tahr

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Agree with the advice.
Bin there, done that.
Three core sessions needed.
Pace is vital on these.

Long build to 20-23 - all about time on feet - pace less of an issue, in fact don't go close to marathon pace. You do not want to "learn" the wrong pace in your legs - just slower than marathon is bad.

Semi long midweek - as someone said build from 13 to say 17/18 at 10-15 sec faster than marathon pace (6.35-40 will do, which notice is slower than half marathon) - after that it feels so easy getting to 17 on marathon day.

Long interval session eg Kilometres, anaerobic threshold or anywhere around 4 mins on , 2.5 mins off - build from 5 up to say 9 reps (ie 5-6 miles total effort) in total of 9 - I used to do these round a block on the local estate, jog recovery half way round, then effort all way round ( say around 6-6.10 min pace). Running round a block has the advantage of not running into bad weather except in one of the four sides of the rectangle! good in winter weather. Jog recovery better than standing for injury reasons.

One other worthwhile run is a pace run of 6 miles at 6 min pace or just over.

That adds up to 50-55 miles per week - which is enough
And I did sub 3s only on the above ie a couple of days off a week.

At that time, the only the other thing I occasionally did is short hills, but done as trying to maintain pace up and over a flyover bridge, rather than sprint to top.

In fact when I lost the junk mileage between the core sessions my marathon times improved. You have to let your body recover!!


LDWA are really good for the long run.

Thanks AI, i read that and it chimed with the conclusion i'm reaching re training, i.e. too much junk, not enough funk (as a coach i know often says). I was on course for sub 3 at Berlin in 2008 when i tore a quad at mile 22 and walked the last 3.5 miles to record a 3:18. Was gutted as was in the shape of my life having just done a 1:23 half with more in the tank (pb was 1:26 up to that point). I'm in for Berlin next Sept and wanted to take a more surgical view of training, and 3/4 sessions is as much as i'll be able to do anyway given child no 2 is due in Feb!

LDWA events are lovely and it never occured to me to use them for the long run for a marathon.

Good luck Tahr, i'll also be pushing for that elusive sub 3 next year

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Originally Posted by Mark Smith

Thanks AI, i read that and it chimed with the conclusion i'm reaching re training, i.e. too much junk, not enough funk (as a coach i know often says). I was on course for sub 3 at Berlin in 2008 when i tore a quad at mile 22 and walked the last 3.5 miles to record a 3:18. Was gutted as was in the shape of my life having just done a 1:23 half with more in the tank (pb was 1:26 up to that point). I'm in for Berlin next Sept and wanted to take a more surgical view of training, and 3/4 sessions is as much as i'll be able to do anyway given child no 2 is due in Feb!

LDWA events are lovely and it never occured to me to use them for the long run for a marathon.

Good luck Tahr, i'll also be pushing for that elusive sub 3 next year

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best of luck with the training. tempo runs and quality miles not junk as you've said sound like the best way forward. remember to look after your body too...regular sports massage can help, obviously I'm biased but it really does help. As does strength & conditioning - weights in other words. stronger muscles will work more efficiently, fatigue later etc. I don't know where you are based to recommend a local sport massage therapist - you can always look on the Sports Massage Association website to find someone local to you

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Originally Posted by ydt

Attachment 7320
Unlike you Tahr, I had never done a marathon until recently when I decided to do one before I am too old for it. The Athens Classic Marathon was my choice and I was not disappointed. The organisation was great and I managed a sub-four hour time, details.

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Sitting having supper at home with Rob Woodall on Saturday night, said to Rob "What's Yiannins up to at the moment"? A quick google found your marathon picture and results. Surely not Yiannis on the road we said, doing a marathon? This can't be right replied Rob!
We were very impressed with your time though, that's pretty quick said Rob, I agree - well done.

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Originally Posted by ydt

Attachment 7320
Unlike you Tahr, I had never done a marathon until recently when I decided to do one before I am too old for it. The Athens Classic Marathon was my choice and I was not disappointed. The organisation was great and I managed a sub-four hour time, details.

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Well run Yiannis!

Well, I had to do one road marathon, I was going to be in Greece at that time anyway and November weather is cooler than usual. Looking forward to getting back to normal again. Fingers crossed, my team will get an HPM place!?

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Originally Posted by Mark Smith

Thanks AI, i read that and it chimed with the conclusion i'm reaching re training, i.e. too much junk, not enough funk (as a coach i know often says). I was on course for sub 3 at Berlin in 2008 when i tore a quad at mile 22 and walked the last 3.5 miles to record a 3:18. Was gutted as was in the shape of my life having just done a 1:23 half with more in the tank (pb was 1:26 up to that point). I'm in for Berlin next Sept and wanted to take a more surgical view of training, and 3/4 sessions is as much as i'll be able to do anyway given child no 2 is due in Feb!

LDWA events are lovely and it never occured to me to use them for the long run for a marathon.

Good luck Tahr, i'll also be pushing for that elusive sub 3 next year

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**ouch** I can relate to that

The schedule that I did manage to fit into some long working hours was..

M off
T shorthills (1 mile warmup - 5K total over a 1/3 mile hill up and down - 1mile warmdown - sometimes off , if busy
W semilong as above 12 build to 18 at 15 sec faster than marathon
Th off
F Night long intervals 5 building to 9 * K+, half K recovery, round local block. 9-10mi total
S 6 mile pace
SU long 15 - build to 23, plod.

That way only one midweek run is critical, the rest are essentially weekend - still 50-55 mi.
The sessions dovetail well, the pace run on sat seems easy after long ints on fri.
When racing on sun, I would lose the SAT pace session.

Lots of good advice here. I did 3:10 at London last year and am doing Edinburgh next year. I would like to go sub 3 but don't think I can. Running the distance is not the problem it's getting the cruising speed down to 6:50 mins/mile. I like AI's schedule but would recommend a target marathon paced session every week to get used to the speed. Also be careful not to do too much quality or you may get injured. Some friends have drastically increased their speed by one weekly track session and regular cross country races.

Greater Manchester next year for me. Did 3:12 earlier this year ( should have been about 3:08 - 3:10 but set off too fast ), hoping for 3:05 -3:10.

Manchester is now less than 18 weeks, and my 18 week plan started today ! Starts off about 55 mpw and builds to 70.

Based on a pretty large user base of stats the website I use for logging miles finds that you need to be sub 1:24 fit for the half to break 3:00, so hopefully you should be OK

Thanks for all the advice gents,

I am going to go for the Manchester as the Edinburgh is on the 23rd May and I have to help a few mates with BG attempts around that time. Your advice gives me a bit of confidence that it is with in my reach, if I train right. :cool:

Looking back my best road race pace for 5 miles is 6:05-6:10 per mile pace. Although on Saturday I did the last mile of an 8 mile trail race in 6:04 according to Strava. So with concentration on speed work I might be able to do 6 miles at 6 MPM.

I have been trying to make all the club weekly speed sessions, last week it was 200m reps with 30 second rests. My thoughts on training are one weekend a hill session, probably a BG recce run followed by a 3 hour road run the next weekend, I am hoping this will stop me smashing myself up on the road. I will also look to start this week with trying to run 10 mile in 70 minutes mid week, followed by 11 in 77 the next until I get up to 18 miles at 7 minute mile pace, hopefully I will be able to go a bit quicker on race day to crack the 3 hours.

I use a Physio at The Herriott Watt University in Edinburgh, although the wife is good a teasing out knots in calves and hamstrings.

Thanks again the real hard bit will be finding the time and keeping injury free.

Well-done Ydt on your first Marathon. Andy if I was going to do another round it would have to be Ramsey although I fancy the 50 at 50 as I am 50 next year.

ATB

Tahr

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

M off
T shorthills (1 mile warmup - 5K total over a 1/3 mile hill up and down - 1mile warmdown - sometimes off , if busy
W semilong as above 12 build to 18 at 15 sec faster than marathon
Th off
F Night long intervals 5 building to 9 * K+, half K recovery, round local block. 9-10mi total
S 6 mile pace
SU long 15 - build to 23, plod.

.

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Your Saturday 6 mile pace - does that mean marathon race pace?

And the plod - how much over marathon pace would you do? Cheers

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Originally Posted by Vic Crescit

Your Saturday 6 mile pace - does that mean marathon race pace?

And the plod - how much over marathon pace would you do? Cheers

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Think I said higher up - more like 6.10 pace

The worst pace to train at in my view is junk mileage at 7.0 - 7.15 , do that and the marathon will feel too fast to maintain. Use the midweek semi to program pace not slower than 6.40. Then nowhere near that for longs eg 7.30+ or offroad/ldwa.

I knocked 10-15 min of my times in a matter of months when I stopped doing junk miles in that forbidden zone, reduced the miles and made the core workouts specific. I was also less tired all the time!

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Looking back my best road race pace for 5 miles is 6:05-6:10 per mile pace. Although on Saturday I did the last mile of an 8 mile trail race in 6:04 according to Strava. So with concentration on speed work I might be able to do 6 miles at 6 MPM.

Tahr

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really dont trust strava for your stats, it plays havoc with mine and many others that i know. It has a habit of not calculating distance or time correctly and dont get me started on ascent. Use a watch to record and work out pace, not strava

All good advice here, I was training well for BG way back and got offered a number for London, thought i could crack 3hrs on BG training and went well till 20 mile ish and the constant pace began to tell. I had to slow (which was great and I enjoyed the race) and finished in 3.04.
Basically trying to agree with above comments, you need the steady miles in at an even pace in your training.

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

Think I said higher up - more like 6.10 pace

The worst pace to train at in my view is junk mileage at 7.0 - 7.15 , do that and the marathon will feel too fast to maintain. Use the midweek semi to program pace not slower than 6.40. Then nowhere near that for longs eg 7.30+ or offroad/ldwa.

I knocked 10-15 min of my times in a matter of months when I stopped doing junk miles in that forbidden zone, reduced the miles and made the core workouts specific. I was also less tired all the time!

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I think the long run needs to be sharpish... or at least finishing around marathon pace for the final 5k..

I do my 20 milers around 6:40-6:50 pace.. finishing 6:10-6:15 pace... marathon pace is close to 6 for me.

For me the key sessions are long run, 1 med-long run, MP runs, and longer reps/tempo sessions.. 1-2 miles.. then the bulk of my mileage is around 6:50-6:55 pace..

Make sure you do a good number of your long runs on flat even surfaces, without gates, stile etc, a road marathon is about being able to handle 26.2 miles of continuous repetitive foot plants - I know a good number of quality fell runners who when transferring to the road end struggle with cramping hamstrings in the latter stages ..

good luck

Well next year's London marathon will be a big wake up call for me. I've checked back through my strava log for this year and, so far, I have done exactly 2 (yes 2!!) 'pacey' runs. The first was a lunchtime run along the canal in Leeds and even that had a hill of sorts in the middle and the second was the relatively unhilly Commondale Beacon fell race a couple of weeks ago. This and this. I found the canal run easyish mind although the fell race was a fair old gut buster. Sub 3 hrs 30 might be a sensible goal for me :)

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Well next year's London marathon will be a big wake up call for me. I've checked back through my strava log for this year and, so far, I have done exactly 2 (yes 2!!) 'pacey' runs. The first was a lunchtime run along the canal in Leeds and even that had a hill of sorts in the middle and the second was the relatively unhilly Commondale Beacon fell race a couple of weeks ago. This and this. I found the canal run easyish mind although the fell race was a fair old gut buster. Sub 3 hrs 30 might be a sensible goal for me :)

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Since when did water flow 300 feet uphill:confused:
Using the 500 feet a mile formula, that run of yours was worth 7 min pace maybe.

As saz says (PS she is marathon royalty! even now in the top handful on the ladies UK all time marathon list!!) - doubt if she ever ran so slow as 3hours even in training. She actually won an open marathon, beat all the men too.

Hard to judge until you do some actual hard surfaces
Roads are a two edged sword.

On the one hand, it allows spring return to your stride so that you run faster than on more absorbent surfaces, on the other that constant pounding can give serious injury problems, unless you introduce it gradually. I have seen off road runners going on road suffer other stuff like shin splints, ITB syndrome, and achilles problems too.

I think saz was more or less put out of marathons because of back troubles arising from the hard surface, but still carried on to do stunning performances on the fell, where the surface is more forgiving. (hope she does not mind me saying so!)

Off topic, if you watch the london, you can see the ones who use treadmills to train, by long lollopy overstriding, because of the extra bounce they are used to. They never last much past half way either! That said - Powerjogs (if they are still made) always a hard bed, and I could reproduce my performances on treadmills on the roads with them.

So (I think- saz may disagree, and if she does, listen to her) in my programme above, as a bare minimum, the semilong , long intervals and pace session need all to be on the road. Some of the longs can be off road, where it is about extending endurance limits whilst continuous running, which is why LDWA is better than fell.

BTW - Try dismantled railway paths. There are some brilliant ones for off road longs!

Would not disagree with that, I probably did too much on roads early on, everyone is of course different, but making sure you are comfortable running at pace on flat decent surfaces is key in my experience

s

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

The worst pace to train at in my view is junk mileage at 7.0 - 7.15 , do that and the marathon will feel too fast to maintain.

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Hi Mike that leaves me in a bit of a dilemma, to crack the 3 hours I need to run at a bit under 7 minute mile pace (6:52 I think) therefore I was going to do a long run for 10 miles adding a mile per week up to 18 miles at 7 MMP, is that pace for me “Junk miles?” also what about slower runs say 8-9 MMP would they be classed as junk miles or endurance building, this is road running, not obviously hill running.

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Originally Posted by IainR

then the bulk of my mileage is around 6:50-6:55 pace..

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Hi Iain, thanks for your input, as I would guess you would be a lot faster than I would every be should I try and do a bulk of my mileage at 7:30 pace? Is this then junk mileage for me?

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Originally Posted by cyclops

really dont trust strava for your stats, it plays havoc with mine and many others that i know. It has a habit of not calculating distance or time correctly

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Hi Cyclops, I know what you mean with Strava, I timed my run with my Suunto the total time on the watch was the same as the Strava time so it must have been about right, although I did leg 2 of the BG in 3:36 hours the other week, while I know my actual time was a bit over 4 hours, even allowing for a few stops to talk to other BGs, photos, pausing for checking compass in the clag did not add up to half an hour. (be nice if it did mind).

Started training with marathon in mind yesterday, ran 10 miles in the morning with rucksack (to work) then at night 7 miles with a club training session wearing a weight vest, mile warm up followed by hill reps, 250m hill, 30% incline on the road, sprint up then jog back as recovery rep X 19. cool down jog back to start.

ATB

Tahr

Haha strava had me doing leg 3 of the BG in something like 4 hrs 30!!!! Its rubbish if you stop and start or go up really steep climbs. That said it should be bang on for road and trail running where you are running consistantly

Why the obsession with the weight vest? I can understand a rucksack to work for practical purposes, but not the weight vest.

Club coach said “better runners bring weight vests if you wish”, in our little club I guess I am better than the average runner :confused:, not that it means much in my book I am only a average hill runner. The vests helps average the speed of the group I guess.

I used to use one when running with the wife but since she had a cycling accident and broke her back in two places she doesn’t run any more, she will walk though.

ATB

Tahr

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Hi Mike that leaves me in a bit of a dilemma, to crack the 3 hours I need to run at a bit under 7 minute mile pace (6:52 I think) therefore I was going to do a long run for 10 miles adding a mile per week up to 18 miles at 7 MMP, is that pace for me “Junk miles?” also what about slower runs say 8-9 MMP would they be classed as junk miles or endurance building, this is road running, not obviously hill running.



Hi Iain, thanks for your input, as I would guess you would be a lot faster than I would every be should I try and do a bulk of my mileage at 7:30 pace? Is this then junk mileage for me?



Hi Cyclops, I know what you mean with Strava, I timed my run with my Suunto the total time on the watch was the same as the Strava time so it must have been about right, although I did leg 2 of the BG in 3:36 hours the other week, while I know my actual time was a bit over 4 hours, even allowing for a few stops to talk to other BGs, photos, pausing for checking compass in the clag did not add up to half an hour. (be nice if it did mind).

Started training with marathon in mind yesterday, ran 10 miles in the morning with rucksack (to work) then at night 7 miles with a club training session wearing a weight vest, mile warm up followed by hill reps, 250m hill, 30% incline on the road, sprint up then jog back as recovery rep X 19. cool down jog back to start.

ATB

Tahr

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I don't think thats any good Tahr.

Reality is if you want to crack 3 hours in April time, you must be capable of cruising easily at (say) 9 miles in 6.40 now - it is a lot slower than the 1.23 that you need for the half which is more like 6.20 pace

In any event to run the marathon at equal effort you will slow down, and that probably means doing the first 20 or so in 6.40 anyway, to build a cushion of 3 minutes (2.13/4 say) - maybe 2 mins of which you will then probably lose over the last 10K as a result of slowing down on equal effort to aim for say 2.58.

So splits of say 1.28, 1.31

You can do reverse splits - I have done it, even making the last 6 miles the fastest, but doing it that way it feels like a 20 mile warm up jog to an eyeballs out sprint: and unless you are confident knowing you can. you will probably fail in attempting reverse. So 1.26-1.28 is the sensible range at halfway.

So you have to program your body to run easily at 6.40 - indeed halfway at 1.27/8 has to feel easy.

If you do that semi long at 6.35-6.40, and taper properly (losing the miles not the quality) - on the day it feels so easy and you will be actually slowing yourself down, although at London even in the top 1000 you still don't get your own space around till after cutty sark: so the first couple of miles can be hindered by idiots who always want to start at the front, knowing they will finish at the back.

I once had a stand up row (moi?? as if!) with a guy next to me who had a schedule on his arm, we were standing at the 2.50 marker. I looked at his schedule - discovered it said 4 hours, and told him he was ruining the race for at least 10000 runners behind us. (days before chip timing) He Didn't care. You will lose even a minute in the first couple of miles to such idiots.



So my view 7-10 pace is programming the wrong pace, they really are the junk miles and having grooved that pace, 6.40 will feel too fast.

So I think the 3 paces are...
6.35/6.40 build 9 -18 semi long (as you get fitter, you may hit 6.30)
Long intervals / lactate threshold etc at (say) 6 min pace efforts
Pace runs of 5/6 similar/ not much over that at 6-6.10
Long runs , over 7.15 pace - even 7.45 just time on feet or LDWA - or if racing half/20, leave out the pace run day before.

Save your energy for the semi long - see if you can go sub 6.30 after which getting to half way and even 16 is so easy in 6.40 on the day. That one session is hard and vital. As are the long intervals. Don't make the long one hard too.

If you cannot do 6.40 for hour some months before the marahton, you probably cannot do the 1.23 half in late winter/ early spring, and I doubt you can do the sub 3.

Sub 3 hours is only possible if your nutritional recovery strategy involves a pink and white sponge, surrounded in a marzipan facia.

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Originally Posted by Borrowdale_Battenberg

Sub 3 hours is only possible if your nutritional recovery strategy involves a pink and white sponge, surrounded in a marzipan facia.

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One of your better posts BunderscoreB

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Originally Posted by dominion

Why the obsession with the weight vest? I can understand a rucksack to work for practical purposes, but not the weight vest.

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I reckon a weight vest will distribute the additional weight more evenly, thereby working muscles on front and back of the body.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

I don't think thats any good Tahr.

If you do that semi long at 6.35-6.40, and taper properly (losing the miles not the quality) - on the day it feels so easy and you will be actually slowing yourself down, although at London even in the top 1000 you still don't get your own space around till after cutty sark: so the first couple of miles can be hindered by idiots who always want to start at the front, knowing they will finish at the back.

I once had a stand up row (moi?? as if!) with a guy next to me who had a schedule on his arm, we were standing at the 2.50 marker. I looked at his schedule - discovered it said 4 hours, and told him he was ruining the race for at least 10000 runners behind us. (days before chip timing) He Didn't care. You will lose even a minute in the first couple of miles to such idiots.

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Thanks Mike for the advice. I know when I ran my 1:23 half I wasn’t at my peak fitness so I should physically be able to do 6:40 MMP, in truth I have never trained with pace or HRM in mind. I have just run with club mates, always looking to run with somebody a bit better than me and tried to keep up.

I know only too well what you mean about the London, I was using a sub 3:30 train schedule for my 2010 race. Towards the end of training it was obvious from my 10k times that a sub 3:15 should have been in my reach without to much trouble and this would have gained me a “good for age” entry. On race day when I got in my pen I looked at the guys around me and I know that they say never judge a book by its cover but a lot of the guys around me were carrying a couple of extra stone in weight and looked like they would struggle to sub 4 hour never mind 3:30. I pushed to the front of the pen and remember looking to my left to see a lad in a full helicopter fancy dress complete with rotor blades on top, it was a great fancy dress and I recall he was running for the RAF benevolent fund, fair play to him but WTF was he doing in a sub 3:30 pen?

Sure enough once it started the whole road was blocked by people just running far to slow, I had my splits for each mile on my armband, I was left with running up and down kerbs, on the outside of every bend trying to get passed so many slow runners. I picked up a lad from NZ and we ran together both cursing a lot of the slow runners. It was only by mile 8 was I able to get on that thin red line, I guess in frustration I tried to pull back the lost time too quick because by 13 miles I was back on schedule then as you say got to around 21 and really started to drop time on each mile. I think I Garmi gave me over 27 miles which must have been due to the zigzag to find gaps early on and the running on the outside of every bend to overtake.

ATB

Tahr

Whilst it's right that quality runs are important you have to be careful. To get the benefit from quality you need to run hard and be fresh for the session. If you do too much you will be tired and will injure yourself and /or not get the full benefit. Most mileage should be at a pace you can recover from. I would say nearer 8 minute miling. Perhaps 10 % quality. As someone said there is a tendency to run slower runs too fast and faster runs too slow.

The best way to do London is to first get a good for age place. You have a different start ( with the celebs!) and can be away quickly.

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Originally Posted by Deadlegs

Whilst it's right that quality runs are important you have to be careful. To get the benefit from quality you need to run hard and be fresh for the session. If you do too much you will be tired and will injure yourself and /or not get the full benefit. Most mileage should be at a pace you can recover from. I would say nearer 8 minute miling. Perhaps 10 % quality. As someone said there is a tendency to run slower runs too fast and faster runs too slow.

The best way to do London is to first get a good for age place. You have a different start ( with the celebs!) and can be away quickly.

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I wouldn't say that.. not in your endurance phase. If I have an event in 4 months I'd put in a good 10-12 weeks of endurance, build your aerobic base, 90-100 mile weeks, no breaks, no days off, few rep sessions.. just miles, anything from 6:30-7:30 normally...

Then the final 4 weeks more speed work to sharpen and more work at race pace.

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Originally Posted by cyclops

I reckon a weight vest will distribute the additional weight more evenly, thereby working muscles on front and back of the body.

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Why don't you just eat pies? Then it distributes the weight all over your body. You can then slim down in the weeks leading up to the event. :)

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Originally Posted by noel

Why don't you just eat pies? Then it distributes the weight all over your body. You can then slim down in the weeks leading up to the event. :)

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I do that as well :rolleyes:

ATB

Tahr

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Originally Posted by IainR

I wouldn't say that.. not in your endurance phase. If I have an event in 4 months I'd put in a good 10-12 weeks of endurance, build your aerobic base, 90-100 mile weeks, no breaks, no days off, few rep sessions.. just miles, anything from 6:30-7:30 normally...

Then the final 4 weeks more speed work to sharpen and more work at race pace.

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I tried that sort of thing for a couple of years, and for me , at least it didn't work.
80/90 is the realistic limit of training once a day around an intense job.

The high junk mileage left me permanently knackered, I was always fighting some kind of niggle, minor calf tear whatever. I had several attempts of failing to break the 3 barrier by margins of minutes. I found it hard to do the pace needed in long sessions, because I was too tired to go fast enough. I fell victim to every bug going, because I was probably immuno-depleted.

My times improved almost dramatically when I chopped back to the four key sessions, generally running at most 5 times a week, but where each of the sessions mattered. I was less tired, more positive, enjoyed it more, and I got faster quickly.

Within a year of stripping it down I was getting close to breaking 2.45 and my training times on on semi longs improved significantly - to the point of doing 2.05 on the occasions I pushed an SL up close to 20. Breaking 2.45 never happened because of a medial ligament rupture, that heralded a series of serious knee injuries that have plagued the last 15 years.

Those knee injuries could be to do with getting an interest in long things, my idea of a "triathlon" became doing london, three peaks, keswick to barrow 40 in successive weekends, then following that with, old county tops, duddon or the yomp:

but I actually think the seeds of those life injuries were sown by too many junk miles on badly lit, rough pavements. I am built more like a weightlifter ( my son actually is a hammer thrower too), than a cycling "grimpeur" so carrying the bodyweight cannot help with impacton hard ground. I also think the reason paula has been permanently injured is these 150/160 mile weeks.

I heard a talk by Helen Clitheroe the other night. She only does 80 as a pro athlete, and I think that could be why she has lasted so long, but still shared the podium with Haile at GMR in 2011 as an "old lady" of nearly 40, doing 31.x for 10K

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

I tried that sort of thing for a couple of years, and for me , at least it didn't work.
80/90 is the realistic limit of training once a day around an intense job.

The high junk mileage left me permanently knackered, I was always fighting some kind of niggle, minor calf tear whatever. I had several attempts of failing to break the 3 barrier by margins of minutes. I found it hard to do the pace needed in long sessions, because I was too tired to go fast enough. I fell victim to every bug going, because I was probably immuno-depleted.

My times improved almost dramatically when I chopped back to the four key sessions, generally running at most 5 times a week, but where each of the sessions mattered. I was less tired, more positive, enjoyed it more, and I got faster quickly.

Within a year of stripping it down I was getting close to breaking 2.45 and my training times on on semi longs improved significantly - to the point of doing 2.05 on the occasions I pushed an SL up close to 20. Breaking 2.45 never happened because of a medial ligament rupture, that heralded a series of serious knee injuries that have plagued the last 15 years.

Those knee injuries could be to do with getting an interest in long things, my idea of a "triathlon" became doing london, three peaks, keswick to barrow 40 in successive weekends, then following that with, old county tops, duddon or the yomp:

but I actually think the seeds of those life injuries were sown by too many junk miles on badly lit, rough pavements. I am built more like a weightlifter ( my son actually is a hammer thrower too), than a cycling "grimpeur" so carrying the bodyweight cannot help with impacton hard ground. I also think the reason paula has been permanently injured is these 150/160 mile weeks.

I heard a talk by Helen Clitheroe the other night. She only does 80 as a pro athlete, and I think that could be why she has lasted so long, but still shared the podium with Haile at GMR in 2011 as an "old lady" of nearly 40, doing 31.x for 10K

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I'm not sure.. I don't think there is one size fits all.. but too many try to be race fit for 12 months a year..

I think its too many reps which lead to injuries though.

But this year I've stuck to endurance phases followed by sharpening and found it great. But I was out of the UK fell scene so not tempted to race.. I'll probably only race 20 times this year, with 3 goal races.. allowing that sort of structure.

I'm not light, not far off 80 kilos.. 90 a week on roads hurts.

I do think long term it wont be feasible if I had kids, missus etc.. at the moment I work flexibly.. my missus lives away, so I can do 20 milers midweek.. high mileage is easy with such a lifestyle.

160 may be detrimental to long term running but remember Paula was a 2:15 marathoner.. the greatest ever by a distance.. so she certainly got the gains for her efforts, but yes it was probably at a cost. But thats a fact of life..