Wasdale

My long fell races this year :

I did the Three Peaks in just under 5 hours, Borrowdale in 5 hours
and was a quarter of an hour inside the final cut-off at Wasdale and finished.

Make of it what you will.

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Originally Posted by Feet in the Cowclaps

My long fell races this year :

I did the Three Peaks in just under 5 hours, Borrowdale in 5 hours
and was a quarter of an hour inside the final cut-off at Wasdale and finished.

Make of it what you will.

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thanks for that...that pegs it quite nicely... a tough worthwhile challenge but very do-able with the right approach:)

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Originally Posted by alphandomega

Tough? It is THE toughest.

It isn't just getting round, it is being fast enough to beat the cut-offs.

Anyway, I've just started rock climbing, where exactly is this Mt Everest then?

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i encountered this sort of attitude when I first started triathlon...started with a half iron man, then did the toughest official ironman race....i finished better than half way up the field in both events

i've two top five finished in long distance fell running races in my first year...

sometimes if you don't just get stuck in and work hard you spend your life never having done anything...other than be sarcastic maybe:p

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Originally Posted by Feet in the Cowclaps

My long fell races this year :

I did the Three Peaks in just under 5 hours, Borrowdale in 5 hours
and was a quarter of an hour inside the final cut-off at Wasdale and finished.

Make of it what you will.

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Your a tough cookie;)

[QUOTE=

Of all of these the LDMT was by far and away the toughest and a serious day out and probably the closest to Wasdale (be interested in the view of people who did both this year). I recorded it (MT) as 27 miles and ~9000' (forget the advertised 16m!) and was out for over 7 hours (how Steve Birkinshaw got round in just under 5 defies belief) and was grateful I had some serious hill miles / days in my legs, but I didn't feel as though I was out of my depth in doing it.

I would be seriously worried though if you were not properly prepared by way of conditioning and experience (hill sense and nav) though.

Hope this helps.
A[/QUOTE]
I did both. LDMT was quite a lot harder in terms of endurance - for lots of us I think it was just a case of digging in and keeping going. Wasdale is far more runnable and direct racing I.e. All set off together so pushed the pace more. I paid for it with mega cramp and lost 60 odd places in the last descent.
Will dig out my times for comparison when I get out of this nice hot bath!

Wasdale 5:52; LDMT 7:40.
Both long enough to justify the entry fee!

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Originally Posted by trilathon

what a daft argument...

.for your info the Coniston Triathlon takes in Coniston Fell Race after having a cold mile swim in lake, then a cycle ride over Wrynose, Hardnott, Birker Fell then a few more climbs before back to Coniston for the run....just about all the triathletes who competed finished quicker than a good proportion of those fell runners who just did the actual fell race on it's own

maybe be you are trying to be well meaning ..but it just looks over precious and negative

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What has your point got to do with asking if Wasdale is a tough race.

The point I was trying to make was if you need to ask how tough the Wasdale race is after looking at the stats, looking at the mountains and route covered by it then you should not be doing it as it doesn't take a lot to work out that it is going to be a tough race.

As i pointed out in the post i have read the stats and the route etc.So i know it's hard.I was asking people how hard they personally found it and also any tips they might throw my way.

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Originally Posted by merrylegs

Your a tough cookie;)

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Me? Nah! ;)

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Originally Posted by delicious

What has your point got to do with asking if Wasdale is a tough race.

The point I was trying to make was if you need to ask how tough the Wasdale race is after looking at the stats, looking at the mountains and route covered by it then you should not be doing it as it doesn't take a lot to work out that it is going to be a tough race.

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so seeking the opinions of respected and experienced fell runners is not something you would recommend ?

I already knew it's tough race...that's precisely the reason for doing it:D

having the view of theNoor is valuable...as he has done some of the races that I have competed in, also he's local and a fine fell runner/does well in mountainous triathlons....it's a good marker for me to get his perspective on things as both an estimation of the scale of the challenge and as a motivational tool

i compete to a good level in many sports...learning by asking is useful as I can't dedicate all my time to one sport

i find your reasoning very negative, unhelpful and defensive... or do you have better reasons behind your judgement of 'if you have to ask you shouldn't be doing it'..which is laughable

do you wish only local experts, and pure fell runners would take on this race and do you feel somehow threatened by outsiders who are capable enough of doing it but like to ask advice first ?

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so seeking the opinions of respected and experienced fell runners is not something you would recommend ?
i find your reasoning very negative, unhelpful and defensive... or do you have better reasons behind your judgement of 'if you have to ask you shouldn't be doing it'..which is laughable

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I like your competitive attitude! unfortunately being competitive and no-nonsense can wind up the less competitive types.
I've done Wasdale a few times and its always longer than you think.
Best tips 1) a food/drink drop at Greendale (as you drive up the valley to start)
2) Have your bearings handy cos in a non-champs year you may be alone, if your up there. 3) Eat well 4) Be aware that you've still an hour to go when you get to Sty Head 4) Dont take the wrong path avoiding Esk Hause (easy done) 5) Have clear bearings off Scafell Pike including across to Lingmell Nose.

Assume that you'll be on your feet for 4 hours or more.

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Originally Posted by trilathon

a tough worthwhile challenge but very do-able with the right approach:)

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Exactly, but maybe I was lucky in that it was a champs year and the weather was fine.

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Originally Posted by trilathon

what a daft argument...

.for your info the Coniston Triathlon takes in Coniston Fell Race after having a cold mile swim in lake, then a cycle ride over Wrynose, Hardnott, Birker Fell then a few more climbs before back to Coniston for the run....just about all the triathletes who competed finished quicker than a good proportion of those fell runners who just did the actual fell race on it's own

maybe be you are trying to be well meaning ..but it just looks over precious and negative

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Yes but taking Helvellyn as an example look at the difficulties some triathletes experience and the restrictions the organisers have felt it necessary to place on the fell leg to keep them out of trouble. I've said it before on other threads but I think fell running is about much more than running - its about mountaincraft, navigation, route choice, negotiating steep and unstable ground etc - and this is particularly evident in the long races. So Wasdale and the like are not just difficult in terms of how fit you need to be to beat the cutoffs, they need other skills apart from fitness that take just as long if not longer to gain. Having said that, and going back to your original question my best time for Helvellyn was a little over five hours (with the run taking under two, so you can guess how crap I am at swimming) my best time for Wasdale a little under six, I usually just get through the cutoffs with 10 minutes or so at Gable. I would suggest if you can get round Helvellyn Tri in that time or less you are fit enough to manage Wasdale - assuming you have the other skills. Without wanting to sound too disparaging the run on Helvellyn is a pretty short marked trail run by fell running standards with the exception of the short scrambly bit up Swirral Edge.

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Originally Posted by novice

Geoff I see you have done Kinder Dozen as well – how would you compare the two as they seem to be roughly similar in distance and climbing? Would succeeding on the Dozen in a reasonable time be a good benchmark of success at Wasdale?

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Crikey, that's a tricky question. I don't really know how you can compare a steady plod around Kinder with the toughest race in England (so far as I know).

So, I think the answer to your question has to be "No". Wasdale takes you up some of the biggest, roughest hills in the country whereas Kinder is much kinder.

I'm trying to plan my races and can only do one of the above so if you had to pick one which would you do

Wasdale or Borrowdale?

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Originally Posted by novice

I'm trying to plan my races and can only do one of the above so if you had to pick one which would you do

Wasdale or Borrowdale?

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If you are a novice as the name suggests then i say Borrowdale....its a shorter route and i think hough i may be corrected it is less distant than some of the wasdale roue meaning that if you did get into problems, it may be easier to get off the fell

I'd agree with Tom. Borrowdales a good race, and an easier race than Wasdale which is mammouth. I'd do borrowdale and see how you feel.

Wasdale's classic though, and if yuou've done other classic longs and been OK, I'd not be scared from having ago.

Both recomended so I'd do both at some time anyway so no biggy either way.

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Originally Posted by IainR

I'd agree with Tom. Borrowdales a good race, and an easier race than Wasdale which is mammouth. I'd do borrowdale and see how you feel.

Wasdale's classic though, and if yuou've done other classic longs and been OK, I'd not be scared from having ago.

Both recomended so I'd do both at some time anyway so no biggy either way.

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whey someone agrees with me for once :D

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Originally Posted by novice

I'm trying to plan my races and can only do one of the above so if you had to pick one which would you do

Wasdale or Borrowdale?

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I think Borrowdale is the better race route, never liked that the Wasdale drops back down to valley level but both good races.

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i may be corrected it is less distant than some of the wasdale roue meaning that if you did get into problems, it may be easier to get off the fell

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Its not far to get back to the start of the Wasdale as the route tends to go in a circle around the start rather than a loop like say Ennerdale.

I've had two bad runs at Wasdale ( one truely awful) and one good run at Borrowdale so I know what I think.

More of Borrowdale is runable- less rock?

I just need to go back to Wasdale and have good run!

I was always led to believe that Borrowdale was the best entry level for the Lakes Classics. If you can do that then look to step up to the harder ones the following year

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

I was always led to believe that Borrowdale was the best entry level for the Lakes Classics. If you can do that then look to step up to the harder ones the following year

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I think its easy to underestimate Borrowdale in comparison to Wasdale or Ennerdale - although quite a bit shorter its still a hard race and is significantly harder (I think) than Langdale or 3 Shires, perhaps roughly equal to Duddon in terms of effort/time although Borowdale is rougher than Duddon which has a lot of more runnable ground. I suggest either Duddon or Borrowdale is a good start to the LCT but if you want to qualify and can only do a few races go for Duddon - although I dont see a great difference between the two (in many ways Borrowdale is perhaps the harder race) Duddon is classed as a superlong, Borrowdale as a long and you need two superlongs for the series - so to count you could do Duddon, one of either Ennerdale or Wasdale and any one from the others - although you can obviously do as many as you like.

Going to come across a bit grumpy here. If you are a novice as your name suggests, dont bother with the Borrowdale as you will be timed out. Have not done the Wasdale so unsure on how severe the CP time outs are. The 3 Shires might be your best bet for a start.

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Originally Posted by Roy Scott

Going to come across a bit grumpy here. If you are a novice as your name suggests, dont bother with the Borrowdale as you will be timed out. Have not done the Wasdale so unsure on how severe the CP time outs are. The 3 Shires might be your best bet for a start.

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Aye your right Roy, 3 Shires or Langdale could be your best bet novice or even Fairfield to start fairly easy work up to Wasdale ect.., there's always Anni waltz in April or if your feeling daring the TWA ?. :)

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Originally Posted by Roy Scott

Going to come across a bit grumpy here. If you are a novice as your name suggests, dont bother with the Borrowdale as you will be timed out. Have not done the Wasdale so unsure on how severe the CP time outs are. The 3 Shires might be your best bet for a start.

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Why? That's more than a bit presumptuous. If they are relatively fit beating the cut offs shouldn't be the issue. TBH the main concern would be do they have the ability to get themselves around the course in bad weather. If they do then jump in and go for it.

My first ever fell race was an 18 miler.

I've done Three Shires thanks - I love the way people instantly assume you are not capable.

I'm after a view as to which is the race to pick as I can only do one this year (assuming I can get round either)

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Originally Posted by novice

I've done Three Shires thanks - I love the way people instantly assume you are not capable.

I'm after a view as to which is the race to pick as I can only do one this year (assuming I can get round either)

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Your capable of Borrowdale, your probably capable of Wasdale, do Borrowdale first though and Duddon Valley if possible;)

Just noticed pre-entry is already open for Wasdale.

21miles/9000ft.

So it looks like the climbing/terrain/ and distance will be a big factor here :)

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Originally Posted by merrylegs

Your capable of Borrowdale, your probably capable of Wasdale, do Borrowdale first though and Duddon Valley if possible;)

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I would agree with the second half of that post Merry but from personal experience :( not the first part :) though I am sure you would have no problems with Wasdale if you haven't done it already?

I think the Wasdale cutoffs are difficult because I normally start every long race very slow for the first couple of miles while I get into a rhythm and then speed up a bit later on but Wasdale doesn't allow you that luxury you have to start as you mean to go on to hit the cutoffs, more so than a race like Duddon Valley where the cutoffs from my experience are more easily achievable.

Actually it would be interesting to know if there is a minimum finish time you would have to achieve in a successful Borrowdale round to be able to hit the cutoffs in the Wasdale ? Assuming the same level of fitness for both runs and no navigational cockups what times in the Borrowdale did people take who hit the Great Gable cutoff in the Wasdale race with les than 5 mins to spare ?

(sorry Novice this doesn't really answer your question)

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Originally Posted by Alf

I would agree with the second half of that post Merry but from personal experience :( not the first part :) though I am sure you would have no problems with Wasdale if you haven't done it already?

I think the Wasdale cutoffs are difficult because I normally start every long race very slow for the first couple of miles while I get into a rhythm and then speed up a bit later on but Wasdale doesn't allow you that luxury you have to start as you mean to go on to hit the cutoffs, more so than a race like Duddon Valley where the cutoffs from my experience are more easily achievable.

Actually it would be interesting to know if there is a minimum finish time you would have to achieve in a successful Borrowdale round to be able to hit the cutoffs in the Wasdale ? Assuming the same level of fitness for both runs and no navigational cockups what times in the Borrowdale did people take who hit the Great Gable cutoff in the Wasdale race with les than 5 mins to spare ?

(sorry Novice this doesn't really answer your question)

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Not done Wasdale Alf, did Borrowdale last year and finished within seconds of a Keswick Lady runner in 4h 20 something. She did Wasdale setting off at the back in 6h 5m. Agree, the Wasdale cut-offs are tight, suppose the only way is to have a go and see what happens;)

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Originally Posted by IainR

Why? That's more than a bit presumptuous. If they are relatively fit beating the cut offs shouldn't be the issue. TBH the main concern would be do they have the ability to get themselves around the course in bad weather. If they do then jump in and go for it.

My first ever fell race was an 18 miler.

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And my first fell race, fresh from road and track running, was Ennerdale - mistake, felt fine to the turn and then realised it was a looooong way back, almost crawled over the line!

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Originally Posted by Speedy

And my first fell race, fresh from road and track running, was Ennerdale - mistake, felt fine to the turn and then realised it was a looooong way back, almost crawled over the line!

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Depends on your back ground I guess. If you come from the walking climbing background getting around the longs don't really hold many issues. You are use to long days out, can navigate, so its pretty straight forwards.

I just don't think you can say 'will get timed out' that's all..no need to put people off.

I'd go for Borrowdale - it's about the right step up from 3 Shires (4.19 vs 2.39 for me - although I did Three Shires after). It's a great race and it goes over Scafell P and Great Gable - what more could you want? :)

The thought of doing wasdale scares me! I will have to do it though to call myself a true fell runner.



I spoke to a lady runner after this years langdale, and she said borrowdale was easier than langdale! - i think that was mostly due to how much more runable borrowdale is compared to that horrible trod that skirts under esk hause to ore gap, and the bolder field that is bowfell.

Never did do very well at Borrowdale.
Only two real long lakeland classics these days, Wasdale & Ennerdale.
Both deserve some respect and any first timer should spend some time training over the race route as unlike Borrowdale you can't always see the runner in front.
Ennerdale is probably the better route and as Baggins suggests Wasdale seems to set off in the wrong direction and then descends back down to the valley before it really gets going.

Actually it would be interesting to know if there is a minimum finish time you would have to achieve in a successful Borrowdale round to be able to hit the cutoffs in the Wasdale ? Assuming the same level of fitness for both runs and no navigational cockups what times in the Borrowdale did people take who hit the Great Gable cutoff in the Wasdale race with les than 5 mins to spare ?

/QUOTE]

For me Borrowdale last year was 4.54 Wasdale 6.14 - I had about 10 minutes in hand at Gable during Wasdale but had a rough patch from half way round the back of Kirk Fell until Esk Hause, but I would usually hope to finish just under 6 hours based on that time, so I lost 15 minutes or so between Gable and Esk Hause. I wasn't too bothered by that, last time it was that hot I got timed out at Pillar. I'm surprised by the comment that Borrowdale is easier than Langdale - I usually manage Langdale in just over three and have actually managed under three on a couple of occasions, best ever Borrowdale was about 4.20 so I find Borrowdale much harder - especially the quite big climbs in the second half.

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Originally Posted by COUGAR

For me Borrowdale last year was 4.54 Wasdale 6.14 - I had about 10 minutes in hand at Gable during Wasdale

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Thanks Cougar thats interesting I had a pet theory you probably had to be sub 5 hour at Borrowdale to stand any chance of getting to the Great Gable checkpoint in time in the Wasdale race at the same level of fitness. Also as you point out the hot weather of some Wasdale races can play a big part as well some years.

If its any more help I managed Duddon in 4.40 - so for me Borrowdale is 15 minutes longer. Not complaining about either but it takes me 15 minutes longer to do a long than a superlong (year before Duddon 4.31, Borrowdale 4.54 but that included an enforced stop for repairs)

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Originally Posted by IainR

Why? That's more than a bit presumptuous. If they are relatively fit beating the cut offs shouldn't be the issue. TBH the main concern would be do they have the ability to get themselves around the course in bad weather. If they do then jump in and go for it.

My first ever fell race was an 18 miler.

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So a forumite called Novice, asks for advice on almost the most difficult races in the calendar and I am being presumptous when I give advice based on the information provided. You wouldnt recommend a marathon to a Novice road runner, would you. To enjoy and avoid excessive damage you have to build up.

Novice - you go for it mate, I didnt know your background and I am sure that you will be fine if you have done some LCT races. Borrowdale for me last year was the best fell racing experience to date. I would never actively put someone off our fantastic sport.

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Originally Posted by COUGAR

If its any more help I managed Duddon in 4.40 - so for me Borrowdale is 15 minutes longer. Not complaining about either but it takes me 15 minutes longer to do a long than a superlong (year before Duddon 4.31, Borrowdale 4.54 but that included an enforced stop for repairs)

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Duddon was 15 mins longer for me. But could've been less fit then.