Brexit

Not for much longer.
The two you refer were around for 700 years before, still will be long after EU bites the dust. Just as we will trade with Europe long before and after EU, however hard Barnier is determined to make it in the present.

As for top two I would pick them from MIT, imperial or Stanford etc, long before oxcam but maybe I am biassed.

But as I also pointed out the once prestigious ecole de mines in Paris had similar chances to such as Imperial even 30 years ago, But like much of EU it was looking inward not out of EU, and that is the problem with EU attitude that has led to stagnation that thankfully we never embraced. So not my perception then, but a reflection from close association with academia.

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Originally Posted by noel

When you say the EU universities are doing so badly, I notice you're not counting the two top universities. Both of these are in the EU. It's funny - your "us and them" attitude seems to be affecting your perception.

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Doing my bit - keeping my eye on you lot Oracle. And thanks

It is worth googling how the world university league tables are generated. The methodology is very Anglo-Saxon centric. The fact that the likes of Germany "does so bad" is not because their universities are bad, it is because they have different priorities. I thing German hammering the UK in exports, would imply they are doing something right.

Conflating several non sequiturs.
I despair of the lack of critical thinking in the Brexit debate.

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Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry

It is worth googling how the world university league tables are generated. The methodology is very Anglo-Saxon centric. The fact that the likes of Germany "does so bad" is not because their universities are bad, it is because they have different priorities. I thing German hammering the UK in exports, would imply they are doing something right.

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yeah, Europe's rubbish.
just can't handle Germany being better at something, can we?
https://www.focus-economics.com/blog...s-in-the-world

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Originally Posted by anthonykay

Regarding the observation that UK universities are doing much better in the league tables than those of any other EU country: that is one of the reasons that we have benefited so much from EU freedom of movement. Students and researchers from all over Europe come to our universities, paying their student fees and making their contributions to our economy. When we are out of the EU, they may as well go to the USA or anywhere else, especially with the Home Office's attitude of making it as hard as possible to get visas (which has already been making it difficult to recruit overseas students from non-EU countries).

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There's some qualification of the points needed here.

1. they don't pay their student fees in Scotland. EU students are entitled to free tuition in Scottish Universities.

2. I'm not sure a student from (say) Spain coming to UCLAN paying the UK rate fee is contributing to our economy as these rates are still subsidised.
A student from Singapore would be paying around up to 4 times as much, because they would be paying the commercial rate.

You can see the effect this is having in Scotland where the offers made to Scottish and EU students are reducing as the Universities chase revenue by offering more places to other UK students and RoW students.
https://www.sundaypost.com/news/scot...ty/#r3z-addoor

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Originally Posted by Dave_Mole

yeah, Europe's rubbish.
just can't handle Germany being better at something, can we?
https://www.focus-economics.com/blog...s-in-the-world

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Ok here are the real reasons behind German "success" - the averaging effect of the Euro which holds the exchange rate down, crushes the southern states but is helping Germany enormously. But is it really acceptable to destroy the life chances of other states? Is standing on others to reach greater height acceptable? The currency union is unsustainable. Other things being equal the deutschemark would rise till the export imbalance halted.

A few things Germany has actually done well,is the converse of the university system: the technical vocational courses like our old technical and polytechnics have not been dismantled or considered inferior. I support German support for " mittlestand " giving lower obligations to smaller employers, and the Schroeder reforms that would never be considered acceptable here. I also admire the German people for a hostile attitude to debt. The jam today culture of entitlement here is a problem, leading too far too much borrowing.

But in the end let's look at the harsh comparison, of this " success". The German median wealth per capita is less than a half of ours, the mean is a lot lower too. And German industry focuses on past industries e.g. Cars ,machine tools, where their modern industries eg seminconductor and internet industries are relatively nowhere. So is their heyday running out?

So I come back to where I began. The euro is a failure that will collapse, and Germany success is built on that quicksand. The EU propaganda implies single market and customs union are critical to success when in reality they have hindered growth and are this a failure. The EU university collaboration we are told is vital is nowhere in world terms. So what is EU good at, precisely? What is it for?

I agree with Patrick on one issue : the THES university rankings are suspect, infact their industrial income figures are way out , but sadly that has artificially elevated not surpressed some German universities in that they claim as industrial income stuff which is actually just EU grant. But that's a long complex subject. Now Where the rubber hits the road: The reality is I see lots of press releases for " scientists at such and such discover", and they are generally the same universities, MIT, Imperial, Stanford, , California, sometimes even Manchester ( graphene)or Dundee ( amorphous silicon) . I rarely if ever hear EU mainland universities in the announcements. So how good is EU university system in paving the way to the future?
EU is too busy burning money on its own administration to use it for anything useful.

I see things as they really are, not through EU tinted glasses.

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Originally Posted by Oracle

As for top two I would pick them from MIT, imperial or Stanford etc, long before oxcam but maybe I am biassed.

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Biased? (spelt so). Meaning you went to Imperial (capital I)?, or did you mean prejudiced

against Oxbridge?

(Context is everything).

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

Biased? (spelt so). Meaning you went to Imperial (capital I)?, or did you mean prejudiced

against Oxbridge?

(Context is everything).

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Just prejudiced, aren't we all??

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Originally Posted by Oracle

Just prejudiced, aren't we all??

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Indeed.

Which is why it is important to understand the extent to which any debate is linked to fact,objectivity,balance,...or not. We humble engineers like to engage with things that can be measured.