But then as I explained the customs union is a far worse form of remain. That keeps us under EU control without a seat at the table, Hardly surprising Barnier wants it. They are terrified we prosper outside the EU.
I really do wish the electorate would study the consequence of some of these treaties .Customs union is the polar opposite of Brexit.
Originally Posted by noel
The EU refuses to change the Withdrawal Agreement.
The Customs Union is what comes in the political declaration and the EU has said for a number of weeks that they could consider changing elements of that, as long as they do not contradict anything in the WA.
The PD is not binding. The WA is binding.
Going back to the Labour issues with May (and I hate May's arrangement) Labour want a Customs Union, quite why I know not, but lets run with it.
If they sign off on May's deal, it does allow a CU at the end of the process. It also allows a FTA. It even allows rejoining. It doesn't allow no deal.
Labour want the CU enshrined in the Withdrawal Act ie UK law, as they fear the Future Declaration isn't legally binding.
There are several issues with this Labour request.
1. Article 50 was enshrined in UK law with a date to leave of 29/3/19 and was overruled with absolute disregard to Parliament. The idea that adding permanent membership of a CU to the Withdrawal Act makes it binding is clearly just political posturing.
It would only be binding if the Government at the time wanted to pursue it.
2. Let's assume it carried weight in law. Labour have said they want a Customs Union where they have a seat at the table when deals are done.
That isn't how the CU works.
Will the EU agree to such a deal when we are out? They have indicated not. The words were something like, they best the UK could hope for would be a seat in the corridor outside.
So Labour are suggesting we enshrine in law a Custom Union when all the indications are that their version of a Customs Union would not be negotiable with the EU.
3. Such a move would be an attempt to bind the hands of a future Govt, a principal that Parliament avoids. All other treaties and agreements have a get out.
My instinct tells me that Labour are seeking for the CU to be "firmed up" as they have no confidence in winning the next General Election themselves.
Richard Taylor
"William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
Sid Waddell
https://www.topuniversities.com/univ...-rankings/2019
Here's another oneIan with only 1 non UK EU Uni creeping in to the top 50.
I think it does agree with Oracle's post.
Whichever table you look at, the EU doesn't have one in the top 30.
If you then look at the stats on Erasmus, the UK success is that more students from the EU want to come here as part of the scheme (between 2 and 3 times as many) as ours go the other way.
I'm not sure that the Uni sector is that relevant to the Brexit debate anyway. There's lots of collaboration goes on worldwide, in our outside of the EU and particularly because of the high regard which our establishments are held in, that will continue.
Richard Taylor
"William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
Sid Waddell
No, the UK Government provides grants for work done in the UK, whereas the EU provides grants for projects involving collaboration between several countries. Of course everyone recognises that some of the money has come from us in the first place: we put money into the EU pot, and we get money out of it. As WP points out, collaboration with EU isn't going to suddenly stop when we leave, but it is going to be a lot harder for our academics to get involved in these multi-national projects than if we were still members.
Regarding the observation that UK universities are doing much better in the league tables than those of any other EU country: that is one of the reasons that we have benefited so much from EU freedom of movement. Students and researchers from all over Europe come to our universities, paying their student fees and making their contributions to our economy. When we are out of the EU, they may as well go to the USA or anywhere else, especially with the Home Office's attitude of making it as hard as possible to get visas (which has already been making it difficult to recruit overseas students from non-EU countries).
Last edited by anthonykay; 06-04-2019 at 06:20 PM.
It is relevant in that it is another important sector the EU Is doing very badly.
The EU considers itself as a leading global player, where in reality it is a world laggard.
It is important because the academic sector is supposed to be the forerunner of industrial technical success. But in the internet and tech sectors generally EU is nowhere. It is scandalous that it's best institution is not even top 30
The irony is the remainers of the uk university sector claim that their success relies on EU. So remainers are not so bright if they are oblivious to their own failure in world terms, or if they believe they need life support from ranking back markers in the EU.
Where the outward looking Imperial (if you have not guessed was one of my alma maters) has gone from strength to strength by focussing on a world stage. It wasn't always this way in Europe. Pre EU I took a couple of bright postgrad employees to a high tech business of mine from the then prestigious parisian "ecole de mines" which had similarities with Imperial college back then. But under EU ecole de mines has relegated to ranking obscurity.
From which I conclude the EU is far too inward looking, contemplating its navel whilst the world moves on. Just like the supposedly precious EU single market and customs union claim they foster success. Yet the figures show in growth terms the opposite is true. Our trade beyond EU grows a lot faster, despite the EU shackles.
EU is not a success. And the Euro a massive failure. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the EU is useful for, other than flushing our money away, and tying our hands behind our backs. EU is terrified that we will be a roaring success when free of their dead weight, which is what they won't let go of the backstop.
Last edited by Oracle; 06-04-2019 at 08:59 PM.
You still injured Oracle? If we organise a whip round how much would it cost to get you fixed up privately? Obviously it would be on the condition you’d go out running all day and not posting on this thread . . .
If I wasn't injured I assure you, I'd be out running instead. That's despite expensive private treatment.
Fascinating how the thread treats injection of factual comment: So what's your take DT on how badly EU performs on academia as well as world trade? So what's the EU for? Why do we need to be or even want to be part of it?
Last edited by Oracle; 06-04-2019 at 09:24 PM.
I have no idea on how well or how badly the EU or anywhere else for that matter performs ‘on academia’, or world trade. Does it sound terrible to say I don’t care? I’ve also got bigger things to worry about than what the EU is for, or if we need or want to be part of it
Last edited by Derby Tup; 06-04-2019 at 09:22 PM.
When you say the EU universities are doing so badly, I notice you're not counting the two top universities. Both of these are in the EU. It's funny - your "us and them" attitude seems to be affecting your perception.
Granted Tup. Well wishes for your recovery. I do wonder why you want to depress yourself in a thread like this!
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