mr b's latest comeback

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noel

That sounds interesting. I'll have to look into that. With false altitude training and beetroot, I'll be unstoppable.

I hope you're running better soon. But don't forget to take it easy and allow time to get over your virus.

---

I did try beetroot about 15 years ago, under mildly scientific conditions: I set my bike on the turbo trainer, with an accurate speedometer on the rear wheel. I then did a session wearing my Polar heartrate monitor, of carefully timed duration at certain speeds, recording the heartrate regularly. I then drank large amounts of beetroot juice for two, or possibly three, weeks and then did the exact same session with the same conditions right down to the tyre pressure.

The results were pretty much identical; the same speed (and hence power) for the same heartrate. From memory it is the nitrate in beetroot that gives it the performance properties, but if you eat a lot of vegetables, (like I do), you will be getting a lot of nitrate any way so it's just expensive, purple, urine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

It's a shame CL no longer frequents these backwaters. We could discuss whether or not it's still doping if your own body is producing the EPO.

---

Following your post I spent last night trawling the internet, and I've got the exercises so will be trying it. I have no qualms about EPO if it's produced naturally, (it's a hormone), and as I veer ever closer towards a return to competitive cycling ... I need all the help I can get!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

I did try beetroot about 15 years ago, under mildly scientific conditions: I set my bike on the turbo trainer, with an accurate speedometer on the rear wheel. I then did a session wearing my Polar heartrate monitor, of carefully timed duration at certain speeds, recording the heartrate regularly. I then drank large amounts of beetroot juice for two, or possibly three, weeks and then did the exact same session with the same conditions right down to the tyre pressure.

The results were pretty much identical; the same speed (and hence power) for the same heartrate. From memory it is the nitrate in beetroot that gives it the performance properties, but if you eat a lot of vegetables, (like I do), you will be getting a lot of nitrate any way so it's just expensive, purple, urine.



Following your post I spent last night trawling the internet, and I've got the exercises so will be trying it. I have no qualms about EPO if it's produced naturally, (it's a hormone), and as I veer ever closer towards a return to competitive cycling ... I need all the help I can get!

---

Nitrites, not nitrates...flack knows what the difference is. As I understand it, you take your dose about 2hrs before your run. I tried it for a parkrun one time and it made no difference, I think I ran a bit slower. They accidentally sent me another order so I had it before my pb Leeds 10k, which I've not yet attempted to better.

I always find that an appreciation of the paradigm in its entirety adds value, and that the originator requires you to fully understand the principles. I remember that my grandfather used to read the manual in full for every new car he ever bought, despite the pedals being in the same place.

Hmmm...on the red piss thing, if Noel got stung by a Red Fire Ant on the day of his big beetroot race he wouldn't know whether or not he was dying. Veg for thought...

Tried a Carr bridge drive session tonight, but my head wasn't in it at all, and I couldn't get the oxymeter working that I'd borrowed.

I've realised that I'm not enjoying it any more with this post viral crap. The fatigue is crippling, I just can't dig in at all. I might have to make a big change. My herbal dispensary lung tea has arrived and it tastes like crap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

My herbal dispensary lung tea has arrived and it tastes like crap.

---

If it were nice, you couldn't tell yourself it's good for you. ;)

Give it a week or so, viral fatigue takes time, but it does get better.

It's time for a change, racing hard isn't working for me and I'm not having any fun. It's got to be fun, ultimately, and if it's not what's the point. I'm quitting the KWL to focus on the advice given to me by Hannah the virologist; zone 2 training and resting. I'm going to have to keep my flat 450m reps going so I don't lose leg speed.

I'm going to use an approach of marginal gains; so in addition to training changes I'll be:

Herbal lung tea, 3 times daily.
Garlic soup, Chinese medical recipe, 3 times weekly.
Root veg soup, twice weekly maybe.
Red meat, once a week.
Increase magnesium intake, spray on rub.

Thursday will stay as Southway circuits, 6x450.
Weekends will see me spending a lot of time on the trails above Bolton abbey and doing the 50 miler on the bike to the craven arms and back.

One obvious problem is having to stay in the zone 2 60-70 percent bandwidth when I don't have a wearable HR monitor. So how cheaply can you get a heart rate watch with no GPS or any of that bollocks. All I need is my instantaneous heart rate on the screen when I look at it, and not on an app cos I don't run with a phone.

First session trying to run at aerobic/base zone 2 pace today, it's hard going so slow, but i'm having fun again. I think my pulse rate was around 120bpm, and i was taking 6 steps for a full in/out breath cycle, my resting HR is about 50 and i don't know my max HR. It's a bit hard to work it all out without a device, if anyone has a spare HR watch i can borrow or buy, please give me a shout.

Shorter loop from the Cavendish Pavillion today, 7.8m/1600'. Hammerthorn Gate, loop round to the trail up Great Agill to Simons Seat, up the big hill, first right Barden Moor, first right downhill, uphill to Spring Brow then first right down to Broadshaw Farm, Valley of Desolation route back. You can get another mile and a half out of it be going to Simons Seat/Lords Seat and rejoining the route at Barden Moor.

Its flexible and uncomplicated, and a good route for muscle recruitment drills. At my leisurely pace i found plenty of time to make sure i was fully utilising VMO to fire out of every stride. Need to start getting a few rides into work during the week too.

I've got a spare Garmin Forerunner 35 Mr B, that will show your pulse rate at the wrist.

PM me your address and I'll post it. See how you get on with it and when you are done return it or make me an offer if you want to keep it.

50m ride to the Craven Arms and back yesterday. Taped my knee, but shouldn't have bothered, i forgot it only causes problems when cycling. The fire was unusually hot and it took me about 15m to start feeling the cold again. Hot ginger sponge cake and 3 pints.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llani Boy

I've got a spare Garmin Forerunner 35 Mr B, that will show your pulse rate at the wrist.

PM me your address and I'll post it. See how you get on with it and when you are done return it or make me an offer if you want to keep it.

---

Cheers Llani, i've PMd you. Are you ok if i reset any stored data?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

Cheers Llani, i've PMd you. Are you ok if i reset any stored data?

---

Posted it this afternoon 1st class. Yes, clear whatever you want off it. Just realised that I did not enclose the user guide but I am sure you will be able to work it out or find info on the internet!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llani Boy

Posted it this afternoon 1st class. Yes, clear whatever you want off it. Just realised that I did not enclose the user guide but I am sure you will be able to work it out or find info on the internet!

---

Awesome, thanks. I've downloaded a .pdf user guide, as long as the charging/comms adapter is there i'm good to go. How long have you had it, and what made it redundant to you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

Awesome, thanks. I've downloaded a .pdf user guide, as long as the charging/comms adapter is there i'm good to go. How long have you had it, and what made it redundant to you?

---

I remembered to put the charging cable in!

Can't recall exactly when I bought it but the user manual was printed in 2016 so I would guess 2016/17.

I liked it so much as it does the basics well that in 2019 I bought one for my son, who was running at the time, but now doesn't use it as he has "retired" from running and just swims 4/5 times a week and plays football.
The one I got for him was reduced as it has a yellow strap which he did not like so we swapped, and I quite like it!
Like I said before see how you get on with it and let me know what you want to do in a few weeks or so when hopefully you will have shaken off your lurgy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llani Boy

I remembered to put the charging cable in!

Can't recall exactly when I bought it but the user manual was printed in 2016 so I would guess 2016/17.

I liked it so much as it does the basics well that in 2019 I bought one for my son, who was running at the time, but now doesn't use it as he has "retired" from running and just swims 4/5 times a week and plays football.
The one I got for him was reduced as it has a yellow strap which he did not like so we swapped, and I quite like it!
Like I said before see how you get on with it and let me know what you want to do in a few weeks or so when hopefully you will have shaken off your lurgy.

---

I'm a bit concerned that i'll get hooked on all the data it provides, and decide i can't live without a wearable. At least i'll know the time; currently i have to ask other runners warming up for the time at races, the most important thing for me is to be warming up near someone with a watch! It's astonishing how scarce publicly viewable timepieces of one sort or another are these days.

I eventually got a GPS watch approx a year ago (again kindly provided free of charge, by a very occasional forumite and friend)

I must admit i got quite engrossed in looking at all the data. Particularly looking at my rep sessions in minute detail on the PC screen to see where i could improve.

Although now the novelty has worn off, the only thing i find useful over and above a normal stopwatch is the fact that i can measure my distance for reps and total run distance. I tend to not even bother checking my pace when doing reps/races now.... feeling that i know when i'm pushing or have got more to give.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Travs

I eventually got a GPS watch approx a year ago (again kindly provided free of charge, by a very occasional forumite and friend)

I must admit i got quite engrossed in looking at all the data. Particularly looking at my rep sessions in minute detail on the PC screen to see where i could improve.

Although now the novelty has worn off, the only thing i find useful over and above a normal stopwatch is the fact that i can measure my distance for reps and total run distance. I tend to not even bother checking my pace when doing reps/races now.... feeling that i know when i'm pushing or have got more to give.

---

I have used Garmins since you had to wind them up, including on my bike, and I find the heart monitor useful because it indicates when I am in the "red zone" and also when I have "switched off" and need to give myself a mental kick.

It's arrived. I almost cut through the strap unpacking it and thereby buying it automatically before i'd even seen it. The big news is, my resting heart rate is 48, any less and i'd be in anthony kay's back garden getting eaten by red kites.

48 is good.

The last time i had mine properly measured was 49, although i recently self-measured 44 using a stopwatch (process not 100% accurate!!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

It's arrived. I almost cut through the strap unpacking it and thereby buying it automatically before i'd even seen it. The big news is, my resting heart rate is 48, any less and i'd be in anthony kay's back garden getting eaten by red kites.

---

I was rather surprised to find, while having various measurements taken while I was an experimental subject in 2017 (some research to do with blood vessel health), that my resting heart rate was 42bpm. Anyway, the red kites haven't come for me yet, probably because the territory around my place is patrolled by a buzzard, which apparently doesn't regard me as very tasty.

Interesting first session with the Garmin tonight, hills with Horsforth Harriers. Right from the off i could have sworn the watch was lying to me- my heart rate was up at 102, but i was barely blowing above normal, so steady i could use my nose comfortably.

Top of the first 1min hill rep and i'm jelly-legged and totally exhausted, i look at the watch and it says 105...should i expect that?

It wasn't until the 4th rep it started to finish up at 135, and 148 on the 5th. On the recoveries, though, it never got anywhere near resting despite my breathing slowing dramatically.

At the end of the next set of 6 on a different hill it hit the 170s fairly consistently in the last 3 reps, and never dropped below 145.

So basically i'm confused by the fact that my heart rate doesn't in any way reflect my oxygen requirements, the two seem totally unconnected. Is this normal? I can start out with very steady breathing with the Garmin giving me a zone figure of 3.2. HR does not always seem to reflect percieved effort...is this right?

Well, first things first.

The South to North postal service seems to be in better health than the North to South one. Perhaps the horses are losing shoes coming over Shap or there might be a Highwayman or two still active in the Crowden area as I still haven't received my original or replacement FRA 2022 calendar.

With regards to the Forerunner 35 and HR info mine tells me that my average resting is 49, not bad for an old codger. However it sometimes tells me that my HR has been as high as 210 whilst running even though I don't feel as if I'm on the limit.

How accurate they are I do not know but I suspect that variables like how tight is the strap, how sweaty you are, and in winter, do you wear it over a baselayer sleeve cuff will come into play.

I don't tend to look at the HR when I run as I'll frighten myself but no doubt if you do then you will get a feel for it and hopefully be able to get some benefit.

I think if you want really accurate HR info then you best get one of those ladies bra type things that professional footballers wear. ;)

Basically, i'm getting all this data, but i don't know what i'm expecting to see.

I don't look at HR, but people who do, tell me that its only accurate when you use a chest strap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Travs

I don't look at HR, but people who do, tell me that its only accurate when you use a chest strap.

---

Yes but even then you need good skin contact and you can still lose the signal erratically and get odd results (eg a pulse over 200 when it clearly is not).

I have a "proper" BP device (since my daughter is a nurse) and I know that BP and pulse are not rock steady even when resting - they can only be indicative. But my resting pulse of 54 this morning (BP 107/66) is about what it has been for the last 25 years.

I have retained test results (blood analyses, CRT traces etc) for over 30 years since I had regular company medicals. A few years ago I ended up with a haematologist who was concerned about an abnormality in my blood but because I could show him an analysis from 20 years before he concluded the abnormality was just "me", I was at the extreme end of the normal distribution curve, I didn't have leukaemia and if I could still run up mountains it was more than he could so hey!

So keeping data can be useful!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

Basically, i'm getting all this data, but i don't know what i'm expecting to see.

---

I think the most important thing is learning where your zones are and calibrating your training accordingly. So try to find your maximum HR as described using the "field test" bit on here: https://www.polar.com/blog/calculate...-rate-running/

Then work our what your % zones are. Then when you're doing your weekly long run (for example), if you're routinely higher than you should be (maybe 60-70%), you know to slow down.

For those without HR gizmos, its worth noting that your 2 mile/3km pace corresponds closely with heart rate zones.

So another option is to run a flat-out 2 mile/3km and this is your "base", then work out your training zone paces back from that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Travs

For those without HR gizmos, its worth noting that your 2 mile/3km pace corresponds closely with heart rate zones.

So another option is to run a flat-out 2 mile/3km and this is your "base", then work out your training zone paces back from that.

---

Or you can ride up, say, Park Rash, Kettlewell as hard as you can.

Your max HR is just before you pass out and fall off.:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Travs

For those without HR gizmos, its worth noting that your 2 mile/3km pace corresponds closely with heart rate zones.

So another option is to run a flat-out 2 mile/3km and this is your "base", then work out your training zone paces back from that.

---

So you'll deffo hit max HR off 3k flat out?

The main concern i have is that my HR does not increase proportionally with my breathing rate, but should i expect it to? The HR reading is slightly erratic, but i was told it would be so i can ignore this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

So you'll deffo hit max HR off 3k flat out?

The main concern i have is that my HR does not increase proportionally with my breathing rate, but should i expect it to? The HR reading is slightly erratic, but i was told it would be so i can ignore this.

---

Well i believe that there's some difference between the definition of physical "max HR" and your maximum useable HR from a running point of view. But that is going beyond the (very limited) scope of my knowledge on the subject!

But yes a 3km race-pace corresponds very closely to max HR pace for running purposes (to the best of my understanding)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

So you'll deffo hit max HR off 3k flat out?

The main concern i have is that my HR does not increase proportionally with my breathing rate, but should i expect it to? The HR reading is slightly erratic, but i was told it would be so i can ignore this.

---

I you haven`t already done so check out NASAL BREATHING:-

https://oxygenadvantage.com/nasal-breathing-running/

As opposed to mouth breathing, if you decide to try nasal breathing you will need to stick with it for a while and train your body to adapt and you will be training not just your body but your breathing also and it ain`t easy to change a lifetimes habit.

All the best

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnK

I you haven`t already done so check out NASAL BREATHING:-

https://oxygenadvantage.com/nasal-breathing-running/

As opposed to mouth breathing, if you decide to try nasal breathing you will need to stick with it for a while and train your body to adapt and you will be training not just your body but your breathing also and it ain`t easy to change a lifetimes habit.

All the best

---

I've bought the book, John, i'm going to read the lot before implementing any training. I prefer it that way.

No run last Thursday, opted for a rest. I wanted to go for a windy ride yesterday, but a bursitis niggle flared up so I started reading The Oxygen Advantage instead.

7.8m, 1600' run at Bolton abbey today, during which I started to implement some of the techniques in the book. I think I may be overbreathing when I'm running hard, so I'm going to build back up with a breathing pattern closer to what is advised. The hardest part is nose breathing during running, it produces a false sense of oxygen deprivation which is annoying.

Did some basic altitude simulation breathing exercises last night. Wasn't as bad as i'd expected, but the diaphragm spasms and throat cramp are a bit of a pain. 25s hold then one normal breath, 25s hold... So 30s for each cycle, did maybe 10 cycles, got my SpO2 down to 86%. Woke up with a headache this morning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

Did some basic altitude simulation breathing exercises last night. Wasn't as bad as i'd expected, but the diaphragm spasms and throat cramp are a bit of a pain. 25s hold then one normal breath, 25s hold... So 30s for each cycle, did maybe 10 cycles, got my SpO2 down to 86%. Woke up with a headache this morning.

---

This may be of interest:

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/...rnalCode=jappl

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

Woke up with a headache this morning.

---

It's working then :)

1x 3000m, 11m19s
3x 450m, 88s, 93s, 90s.

I forgot to check my HR after the 3k, which is annoying as i was doing it purely for that metric. Max HR during the 450m reps was 136, but i've seen 174 not so long ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike T

This may be of interest:

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/...rnalCode=jappl

---

I always experience things for myself.

Tried some more SPo2 exercises this morning, but only saw 92 on the oxymeter, which was still enough to result in a minor headache. I think this is why the book advises walking, when I'm sat still I'm not using any oxygen, but I still have the same physiological stimulus to breathe. Half way through the book now and just working on getting my co2 tolerance up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

Tried some more SPo2 exercises this morning, but only saw 92 on the oxymeter, which was still enough to result in a minor headache. I think this is why the book advises walking, when I'm sat still I'm not using any oxygen, but I still have the same physiological stimulus to breathe. Half way through the book now and just working on getting my co2 tolerance up.

---

If you breathe less, your CO2 will rise in both your blood and your lungs, and there will be less room for O2. Our breathing is driven by our CO2 level, and by our blood's acidity, not directly by O2 usage or O2 lack.

At altitude we become breathless as our blood becomes acidic because of anaerobic metabolism, so due to the low O2, but indirectly.

People who rebreathe air from which the CO2 is being removed, thus using up the O2, become muddled and confused before they become breathless.

If you think you breathe too much during exercise try this. Choose a slope you would normally power walk up, and walk up it. Let your breathing settle into its normal pattern. Once this has happened, keep the same pattern/rate of breathing, but breath much more shallowly - you will soon feel the need to breathe more, and you will feel more comfortable doing so. Then, having let your breathing return to its normal pattern for a bit, keep the same pattern/rate but breathe more deeply - you will almost certainly feel fine doing this, even though the deeper breathing is not needed.

Whilst we can breathe "too much", it is far better than breathing too little, or trying to. In general, unless we have diseased lungs, our breathing just does what it needs to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike T

If you breathe less, your CO2 will rise in both your blood and your lungs, and there will be less room for O2. Our breathing is driven by our CO2 level, and by our blood's acidity, not directly by O2 usage or O2 lack.

At altitude we become breathless as our blood becomes acidic because of anaerobic metabolism, so due to the low O2, but indirectly.

People who rebreathe air from which the CO2 is being removed, thus using up the O2, become muddled and confused before they become breathless.

If you think you breathe too much during exercise try this. Choose a slope you would normally power walk up, and walk up it. Let your breathing settle into its normal pattern. Once this has happened, keep the same pattern/rate of breathing, but breath much more shallowly - you will soon feel the need to breathe more, and you will feel more comfortable doing so. Then, having let your breathing return to its normal pattern for a bit, keep the same pattern/rate but breathe more deeply - you will almost certainly feel fine doing this, even though the deeper breathing is not needed.

Whilst we can breathe "too much", it is far better than breathing too little, or trying to. In general, unless we have diseased lungs, our breathing just does what it needs to do.

---

According to 'The Oxygen Advantage' program as outlined on the book, over breathing washes out CO2 which needs to be in, not out. He says haemoglobin requires CO2 in order to offload O2 to be used for energy production. If you overbreath you can find yourself with not enough CO2 to facilitate O2 usage; this is what he reckons.

I was surprised to find that my SPo2 can be up at 98 after a 2min flat out hill rep of Carr Bridge Drive. I don't think it should be that high, and i've always noticed that i breathe more than anyone else racing around me. Based on that i'm going to test the idea that i'm a racing over-breather and see what happens if i commit to the program in the book. I'm reluctant to cherrypick the bits that have no opposing research out there, i'm just going to commit to all of it and see what happens.

I'm a firm believer in experiencing things, even if they are ridiculed as snake oil by others. If i hadn't taken Chinese Acupuncture seriously i'd never have gotten over the fasciitis in my right hip. Something is wrong with my racing performance anyway, something hidden to me, i'm far too slow on climbs and far too fast downhill. There is a white crow in my performance.