Grouse Is Julian any better? he looked abit washed out.
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Grouse Is Julian any better? he looked abit washed out.
My magic tea helped him! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Can you bring some to the Haworth Hobble please! :)
I intend on finishing that one :oQuote:
Originally Posted by wormstone
As MB said above, we all make mistakes. It was a fairly low speed impact but the chap in the other car was NOT wearing his belt, now that is a mistake. He broke his leg. For SRF life carries on, he is now in Finland doing his usual thing, speaking.
Yiannis
Can't understand the leave him alone business, if he hadn't have been a fellow competitor you would have been very critical of his actions. There have been all sorts of measures put into place to stop people driving whilst tired from Tachos for long distance lorry drivers to huge signs on the motorways telling us tiredness kills. As far as I am concerned it seems that SRF was driving whilst unfit, other people were injured (INJURED) because of this and he of all people should have had an excuse for not making the journey. So less of this namby pamby attitude of leave him alone, if we appled that to everyone it would be chaos. We have to accept our responsibilities and no one I repeat no one is above that!!!!! Sir or no sir :mad:
I don't know whether you took part in the HPM or not but there must have been a couple of hundred walkers/runners at Edale on Saturday and most of us got there by car. Perhaps we should have all stayed at Edale (assuming there is enough accomodation for everyone) and travelled home on Sunday, completely refreshed and with a zero (?) chance of having an accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr H Tool
ydt
Not wearing a seat belt is indeed a mistake, though not directly threatening to others. However, I'm not sure wearing one would have saved the chap's leg. It's like when I hurt my knee falling off my bike and people kept asking me if I had been wearing a helmet.Quote:
Originally Posted by ydt
Leaving individuals out of this, it will be enormously inconvenient and limiting, but zero tolerance for driving home after exhausting days and nights out is almost here. Not long ago drink-driving and obliging others to breathe one's smoke were quite acceptable; before that, wife-beating was OK.
I have many a time driven home from a weekend in the Lakes with my eyelids closing. It was a nightmare at the time, but it was just what people did. Now I look back and shudder at what could so easily have happened.
Of course you are right. We shouldn't drive unfit. But who here hasn't?
That's why I think the comment let him without sin cast the first stone is apt. In fact I can only think of a few runners I know, I think one has posted on here, who only use public transport, so they are probably the ones above reproach on this matter.
Almost of all of us will have driven tired, after late runs, long runs, night pacing on rounds.
Basically its just a salutary lesson and not a time to point the finger. Because 99.9% of us would be hypocrits to do so.
But yes I think you are right, if a climber drove 10 hrs London to Scotland, bagged 4 great ice routes, then drove 10 hrs home, he'd be considered a bit of a hero. Had a guy driven pissed he'd be considered a muppet, yet both would have the same reaction times.
If a recreational event cannot take place because people can only take part by risking other people's lives, so it goes! It used to be argued that England would be ruined if small children were stopped from working 12 hours a day in mines and mills.Quote:
Originally Posted by ydt
Just because we all did it, and mostly got away with it, doesn't mean we have to go on pushing our and other people's luck forever. Maybe at this kind of race it will become the norm for competitors to demand and organisers to provide some kind of shared transport to the nearest town where public transport/ accomodation is available. We devote infinite research and ingenuity to questions of training, gear, tactics etc. Surely all our combined intelligence and will-power can be used for some lateral thinking around this problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
And they were proved right! That was when Britannia ruled the waves! Look at us now: getting pushed round by the Argies? Land of Hope & Glory...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
Sorry, possibly still delerious following Saturday's run.:rolleyes:
I quite agree with your comments. I also have had the experience of almost nodding off and have taken steps to prevent that happening. Whenever possible (most times) I travel to events on my own so as not to be under pressure to travel back straightaway. I then have a good sleep in the back of my van and also stop frequently for short rests. Even so, a disaster only needs one chance and it happens for unforeseen reasons, such as when the brain of a driver fails to register the image of a cyclist the eyes have sent to it. I have been the victim of that more than once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
ydt
Twice in the last 12 months I have been driving back from an event and been fighting to keep my eyes open. On both occasions I stopped and had a 10-20 minute kip which worked wonders and allowed me to continue my journey 'refreshed'. It's amazing what such a small amount of shut eye can do. I remember reading an article a couple of years ago about a guy going round the world on an R1 in a stupidly short time and his sleep pattern consisted of 40 minute sleep stops.
I've entered the HPM four times - each time I drove the five hours up on the Friday morning and dozed during the day, and stayed on the saturday night and drove home on the sunday. Once I did it with two blokes who finished and stepped straight into the car and drove home to the south-east, taking it in turns to doze in the car. But the equation is different for everyone - maybe SRF had to catch a particular flight after the event and planned to sleep on the flight? Perhaps a short drive to the airport would have been OK. On this occasion, it seemed not to have been.
I didn't do this years HPM but I have done my share of distance events and have factored in the post challenge arrangements. Only a fool wouldn't admit that the appeal of some of these events is that at some point of pushing one self you actually get out of your head, I have been with people who have acted like they have downed two bottles of whisky after such an event. I no longer need to get out of my head cos I quite like what's in there. But seriously some people say they can hold their drink better than others some people push their luck and get away with it.
The seat belt business is of no consequence to this accident, it is almost like saying a cyclist deserved to get injured because he wasn't wearing a helmet when hit by the speeding car. The criteria is totally different, not wearing a seatbelt does not impair your ability to drive.
I know people who do such events and have alchohol as well, I don't know what they are trying to prove.
We Fellrunners/cyclists of all people should not condone such behaviour because more often than not it is one of our own that gets it (and I have lost a few). It doesn't mean we hate SRF we should just admit he was in the wrong and there are limitless options for alternative means of getting home/airport etc
There are NO excuses.
Yes the HPM is a great event, but as with many other events maybe more thought should go into post challenge arrangements, for goodness sake a lot of people here berate the 3 Peaks Challenge for exactly this reason and yet when I did it with the Fireservice a couple of years ago we had a couple of dedicated drivers and a vehicle with a restricted top speed, and it was brilliant and we came second.
How did the vehicle cope with the Scafell ascent?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr H Tool
Ha bloody ha, it couldn't keep up with me :p (could have been cos one of the drivers was overweight)
Well i wasn't sure whether to post my thoughts, but I'm kinda glad I did, if only to get some discussion and awareness. I did not mean to point fingers at individuals but what happened has to raise some questions.
I'm not sure it has to be at the level that requires the event organisers to lay on specific post event transport although if they want to they are more than welcome, but a simple awareness by all competitors that they cannot possibly be in a truly fit state to drive (especially long distances) after having not slept for the night would be enough.
Get a bit of kip before going home, find other competitors in your area to share with, stay overnight after the event, persuade your loved ones that a weekend in Edale and its surroundings is a wonderful thing! These are all things we could do.
I am pretty anti H&S for the sake of it and I am willing to take risks in what I do out on the fell or wherever, but when you are driving a car on a public road there are many other people out there who could have their lives ruined by an individuals decisions.
Yes we all make mistakes, we have all driven tired after big days out, but after a night of no sleep you really have to be aware that that is dangerous.
If this particular incident had happened at a different time and the crash had happened at 60mph, regardless of seatbelts etc. someone may have died. If it was proved that you had been up all night in an event and not had any sleep, the charges could well be causing death by dangerous driving - that carries a prison sentence and you've ruined lives. there are many 'if's in this statement and they only didn't occur due to luck.
Kat
The HPM base is extremely close to Edale railway station with good, regular trains to both Sheffield and Manchester. If you can't get there you'll have trouble operating the pedals of a car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
There was lots of caffeinated drink knocking around and nothing to stop you grabbing a bit of kip in the car. If the race organisers insisted you sleep for X hours before you drive off, would you stand for it? I remember an argument many many pages long about being forced to take mobiles on a Lakes AL (iirc) race.
Most of the competitors have done the race a number of times before and even those who haven't should know exactly what to expect.
I think you are right, the equation is different for everyone. I suspect age plays a big part. I did the HPM in 1981 and drove alone to Leeds afterwards without feeling at all sleepy, indeed I suspect I was as high as a kite (on euphoria, not drugs, except maybe too much chocolate!) I even stopped off to visit friends on the way home, to boast about it all. It would be very different now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Brice
...organisers arranging transport, going to races by train, vehicles with restricted top speed?
...the argument is seriously diverging!
ydt
No it isn't, it is part of the game. It is as important as navigation, knowing the course, training and preparation. There is more to all this than putting one foot in front of the other!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ydt
Alexandra, that is exactly what they all though up to just before the UNEXPECTED happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
ydt
Yiannis, are you trying to make your legs longer by hanging from that tree?
(Ah ha - the secret of your success!):D
Yes, you're absolutely right - which is why I guess there needs to be an absolute rule, no exceptions. Drink-drivers always used to argue they drove BETTER when drunk, people high on Everest make terribly wrong decisions, I felt GREAT but perhaps was driving appallingly, or at any rate was not capable of reacting well to the unexpected. So it all needs to be planned beforehand, no place for post event improvisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ydt
It never did me any good, I am still small:( ..... and to add insult to injury, Ranulph Fiennes said on camera recently (Mark Lawson interview) that he does not like small men:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouse
ydt
Was it a small man whose leg he (alledgedly) broke?Quote:
Originally Posted by ydt
On the back of this controversy, I am re-launching my spectacularly unsuccessful thread Today's Look Ma No Car, with an explanation of what I have in mind. WILL ANYONE READ IT???
I won't. Can't stand self righteous bleaters.
How do you know it's self-righteous if you haven't read it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouse
I can sense it.
Hmmm.
1. Would there have been as much (any?) press had it not been SRF? So would it even have been an issue?
2. We are all responsible, good or bad, for our own actions - driving whilst drunk, whilst tired after a day's work 100s of miles from home or after a hard 24 hour or more run.
So, I s'pose my view is (i) there, but for the grace of god on a number of occasions, go I (and many more of us, I would guess) and (ii) SRF gambled (knowingly or otherwise) and lost (apparently, of course - it could also have been nothing at all to do with the efforts he expended in the HPM) and lastly (iii) organisers requiring rest after races is utter madness, no more, no less. How does anyone, organiser or otherwise know how much rest I may or may not require after any given distance. They don't.
I do use a lot of brackets (don't I?).
fb
Whilst I agree driving whilst Tyred :o isn't a good idea, Having fallen asleep on the M1 when I was 20 I can vouch for this (thank god for rumble strips and Adrenalin). As far as I can see this hasn't been proved to be cause of the accident in question so debating whilst mentioning SRFs name is a bit unfair.
More to the point perhaps this should have a seperate thread and leave this one for good? memories of a great event.:)
Agree, well done all you HPMers;)Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Yes it should have been separateQuote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Anyway it isnt so I will comment
For someone who drives in excess of 50,000 miles a year Ive had my fair share of near misses and nowadays always have a sleep.
I finished the race and was tired but certainly could have drove straight home but its only an hour. BUT I did have an hrs sleep.
It makes a massive difference. Felt a lot better for it.
Im not commenting on the accident.
If the drive is a few hrs like say coming from the lakes I have an enforced stop and just get in the back of the van. Whats 45mins in the scheme of things.
Its one of the reasons why Ive purchased a big large van. I have all my gear including brewing up tackle and sleeping gear.
Sometimes Im wide awake after an event an sometimes im not.
One of my worries at these events is that runners have a few nurofen etc and that can have a big effect. I had soe paracetomol and waned to just sleep . SO I DID.
so thats where you went, I thought you'd gone for a warm down run or maybe a skyline recce;)Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
Ian, that is exactly why I avoided the temptation to reply to the (.....) comment posted at 7:16pmQuote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Yiannis
Shh. That's a whole different problem. You'll have Christopher Leigh rearing his ..head.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
Actually Ian I was clambering to get Grouse's autograph but as usual Margarine had scurried him away:(.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
I have the same tracksters as him. Ron Hill circa 1967.