Privately or on the NHS? It would be helpful for us to know whether your opinions are weighted by financial considerations.Quote:
Originally Posted by egor
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Privately or on the NHS? It would be helpful for us to know whether your opinions are weighted by financial considerations.Quote:
Originally Posted by egor
Trevor I admire deeply your bravery and courage in posting about your depression on here.
I really feel for you at this time my friend. My journey was a long one but I came through it. You have taken a brave step on yours by seeking a solution to your depression. You can beat this. Be mindful that there are many different ideas for cures and things to help you. Some not always in your best interest.
Depression is a very individual thing indeed. Yours will be unique to you. If I can be of help in anyway please ask
Darren
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrump
I wholeheartedly agree. Depression is a common (about 1 in 5 of us in our life time will suffer from it ) and potentially life threatening disorder and the reductionist arguments being espoused by some on this thread are very worrying.
Can I please draw people's attention to the link I posted earlier, this gives information on what depression is, the variety of treatments available (both medication and therapies) within the NHS. For people who want to know more about the evidence base for such approaches I would recommend visiting the National Institute for Clinical Evidence (NICE) website which has specific guidance on the treatment of depression, anxiety and other disorders. They go into a huge amount of detail about what the evidence is. It is unhelpful (and inaccurate) to start rubbishing one approach or another. The fact remains that like other forms of physical treatment there is not necessarily a one approach fits all and it is about finding out which is most helpful for you. The point about waiting lists is a relevant one and GPs are often in a difficult position in that they may wish their patient to have a combination of both meds and therapy but the person may have to wait longer for the therapy. There are considerable efforts being made at present to increase access to psychological therapies by training more staff. If you look at the evidence a combined approach (meds and therapy) is helpful for many people.
I think the point about thyroid difficulties is a very interesting one and I agree should perhaps be checked morre often.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Depress...Treatment.aspx
Hi Stagger
I wanted to add my support to you as well, though I dont know you I imagine it cant have been easy posting on here & I was very glad to read you were finding the responses useful. There is a lot of good will about & people here clearly care for & about you, so good luck with it Stagger.
Ive fortunately not had depression, but have friends who have & I thought I'd offer some of the things they did that helped, knowing that a) they may not work for you and b) seeing a suitably qualified bod is really the best way. So these are just for info & if any appeal to you or sound useful, great, if not, please disregard/delete as appropriate.
Keeping a diary worked well, just downloading stuff knowing it is private, never to be seen, appeared to help. It also allowed any mood changes to be noted (we used a 1-10 scale of mood) & importantly why that was, the self awareness gave strategies to deal with stuff which she felt gave her more control, which was important to her. She used to note 2 or 3 things at the end of each day that she was pleased with/proud of, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant, they mounted up over time & helped.
When feeling overwhelmed we used to breakdown issues into a sort of mind map, then brainstorm ideas on what to do with each issue, sometimes as simple as a phone call, again this gave a feeling of control & momentum.
We built up a list of achievements, which I had printed off as the shape of a wall, in each brick she would put something she was proud of, eg passing a driving test, finishing 3 peaks, buying first flat, cooking a difficult meal, etc etc, we built this up over time & became a 'foundation' she could go to in dark times. We also worked on understanding the temporary nature of things, that this too, will pass. The diary gave us eveidence to reinforce that.
We designed a list of 'personal highlights', things which nutured & gave energy + peace & calm. So enjoying nature-listening to birds, walking in a wood, reading magazines/books, listening to music, (specifying what music) time with friends etc. Could be 5 minutes, 1 hour or all day, but hese highlights gave us stratagies to employ & again a sense of contro, we'd look for 'highlight opportunities' as we called them.
We did some meditation & worked with a concept callled mindfullness, which is about being in the moment, being fully present and engaging with the present. This worked very well & actually improved our running as well, eg ignore Fairfield, were on dollywagon, lets be fully on dollywagon and deal with Fairfield when it arrives...
Anyway, bottom line is these worked for us in managing it & helping controlling the black dog, and maybe there may be something for you mate, I may be repeating stuff which is already on here, for that I apologise, I only offer as examples of things I have seen work & fully recognise they may not work for everyone.
Best of luck Stagger, I know nothing of thyroids, I thought they were from Dr Who.
Best wishes
Duncan
No that's Daleks.
I have an under-active thyroid................any parts going in Dr. Who for him?
Stagger won't mind me having a joke on here ;-)
Christopher I actually do wonder sometimes. I dont want to Hijack the thread but your attitude towards Egor isnt on. He is a professional in his field and Im sure has helped many people.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
How can you possibly make comment when you dont even know him ?.
Your comment above. Whereby the athletes had an odd thing , IE nothing to depressed about.
If you knew anything about depression as I do( I am not an expert, THERE ARE NONE ) Having everything is very common in people who suffer from depression.
Im sure Egor comes across this a lot in his job.
There are many people, thousands who do well on drugs such as citalopram etc. The way you have generalised the way a doctor hands them out is totally not how a GP goes about prescribing them.
Drugs are prescribed for specific conditions. Certainly not if the cat has died. Get real
I can't speak for what CL said Daz but to be fair Egor dismissed my advice as "nonsense" and I too am a professional in the field as you put it, and one by the sounds of it that see's people that are more acutely unwell than Egor.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
It's also worth noting that some GP's do over prescribe anti-depressents when they simply aren't needed - this is unfortunately a fact.
I think it is really sad that a thread that should be offering support has ended up in such an argument.
As others have said everyones illness is different and everyones approach to coping with it may be different, in fact many long term sufferers use a variety of different techniques to get through it. Lets not get hung up on what is right or wrong but offer support and an insight into the different options out there.
With the greatest respect to those who are working in the industry I would say that they should know more than most that treating and coping with depression is not an exact science rather the use of a range of techniques that can be trialled for each individual case. The profession is learning more all the time. No rights no wrongs just what works for that individual but that process can take a long time in terms of trial and error and even then may need to be altered over time.
In over 30 years I have seen depression go from being ignored to being ridiculed to being supposedly accepted by society and yet in reality not. Treatment has changed enormously and to my mind we are still grasping at straws. Medicine is not a cure in itself and neither is couselling. Whilst some people may suffer a relatively mild case of depression following an event in their lives others suffer a life time of inexplicable depression. How can both be treated the same.
So lets not argue about it but offer support, advice and options.
eavesy, i work for the NHS in specialist psychotherapy services, we see people that no one else wants to or can, flopsy is right this is all getting out of hand and lossing its focus, its far to a complex issue to debate in a forum such as this, i hope stagger is able to find the help he needs, which in my opinion is someone to talk to, in do the job i do as i know it works from personal experience.
Sorry to hear about your breakdown MG, hope your on the mend, everyone has their problems and i think it's very brave, and the right thing to do, to air them rather than bottle them up. Gives your friends a chance to rally round and do a little bit to help. Knowing your not alone and people do care about you is help, i think.
Keep active and keep in touch with friends, and keep smiling even when things get you down, there's always someone worse off than you, tell myself that a lot, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but when it does, job's a good un.
Best Wishes to all, and keep fighting them inner demons:)
I wish people would cease and desist from arguing on this thread. This thread is for the benefit of one of our own and anyone else who cares to read it. If you have an issue PM it as your behaviour is counter productive. We want to help our peer the best we can. I am really, really giving stagger and MG my best wishes and to say to you don't be embarrassed talk it will help it takes time but you will come out the other side. You both and anyone else have people on here who would be glad to help in anyway be it talk or e mail or go for a run. Look forward be positive as i have had my Bipolar 30 years and have come close to falling into the abyss and never coming back many times but i am still here by taking it day by day. Best wishes Matt.
[QUOTE=egor;337452]Egor I don't need to know the intimate content of the mind. If a person is hypothyroid their brain starts to shut down, because the chemical balance changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
I agree with you in one respect, there is always a cause to depression(including wrong choices), but in the context of my argument I was pointing out a situation where volitional aspects weren't appropriate.
[QUOTE=eavesy187;337461]You've quoted the wrong person here.Quote:
Originally Posted by egor
Look Daz-H, if Egor really knew his stuff, he wouldn't dismiss the thyroid argument. Since he has, he's denying it as a legitimate cause of depression.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
I've said on here before that some people deserve to be depressed, for all the wrong choices they make. Choices they knew were wrong when they made them. Others feel down for things they have no control over. BUT, giving pills out to people so they never have to deal with personal grief just proves what a bunch of wimps we are.
The truth is, life is about ups and downs. You're not supposed to feel good all the time. In fact the dishing out of these happy pills, is the surest way of preventing people from facing their problems, because it produces a sense of achievment in people who haven't earned it.
Egor you have to accept that it doesn't work for everyone, and isn't even relevant to some.Quote:
Originally Posted by egor
As for it being sad that this has turned into an argument I agree, it really is. One that simply wouldn't have happened if numerous forumites advice (including those that suffer/have suffered from depression and those that treat depression) hadn't been dismissed as "nonsense" - its pretty simple really.
Egor I also think you were missing my point when I said I probably work with people more acute than you. I was getting at why in my working world medication is sometimes required as you said in serious cases when risk is involved. Where I work risk is always involved. Yes you work in difficult cases, and in most cases do a percentage of a holistic approach - ie the services user will still have a CMHT etc. I work for the team that pyschotherapists, and everyone else refer to when they can't manage the risk anymore - when an hour a week will no longer do -when there is serious and imminent risk to self or other, when the refer believes acute hospital admission is required etc etc - though this is just further arguing so I won't go on.
I would add that I have discussed your advice of a TFT, medication etc being nonsense and that therapy is the only answer with a Consultant Psychiatrist and they were pretty astounded that you could come to this conclusion - especially when you known none of the details of Staggers situation. Maybe I shouldn't have been so outspoken in relation to your posts, however I felt a moral and professional obligation to do so - and judging by a P.M I've received I ain't the only one who seriously questions your judgement and advice.
Stagger I am really sorry your thread has turned in to this - I truely believe (based on experience) that some of the things I outlined in my original post will be of benefit to you. What you really need to do is speak with the team or person that is treating you, and see what your options are. Consider everything available to you and dismiss nothing until you have tried it.
What's happened to the Goatess' post? I was going to ask Ms Goatess whether the doctor's who are treating her, tested her thyroid function.
[QUOTE=christopher leigh]I've said on here before that some people DESERVE TO BE DEPRESSED, for all the wrong choices they make. Choices they knew were wrong when they made them. Others feel down for things they have no control over. BUT, giving pills out to people so they never have to deal with personal grief just proves what a bunch of WIMPS we are.
The truth is, life is about ups and downs. You're not supposed to feel good all the time. In fact the dishing out of these happy pills, is the surest way of preventing people from facing their problems, because it produces a sense of achievment in PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T EARNED IT. [QUOTE]
I am sorry I made the mistake of coming into this thread. I thought it may have some positive and informative comments, not ones that would fill me with doubt and worry about myself and my treatment. I need to be strong to try and get through this successfully and get back to work and my old self. I am not looking for an 'easy' way out CL and I am certainly not a 'wimp'!Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
I just don't know how you can make the comments you did (ABOVE IN BLOCK CAPITAL) when you know nothing of individual personality, circumstance or situations.
(With reference to the hypothyroidism, I do agree that could cause some depressive symptoms. I would have thought the doctors would rule that out before prescribing treatment. I certainly had tests done to rule out other things.)
I have deleted my post Chris. Being on this thread is doing me no favours.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
I do hope that you and others will respect Stagger by not arguing and post the well wishes and positive comments he needs right now.
My comments so far have included all causes of depression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess
I like the fact that there is conflict on this thread. A good debate often gets to the root of a problem, by challenging ideas. This 'judge not, that ye not be judged' attitude is the cause of a lot depression, because it creates the destruction of courage.
Often, courage is all a person needs to witness in others, to motivate them to action. It's the same for some people with depression.
Last point: You said you had tests to rule out other things, but didn't state whether that included thyroid. Perhaps you don't know. I suggest you find out.
Dear dear dear me...this situation is really quite saddening. I think it is really important that all those reading this thread are influenced by well informed guidance and not the opinionated ramblings of someone who has clearly no knowledge of depression as an illness, its etiology and proven treatments. From what you have said MG you are receiving (in my humble opinion) appropriate treatment and I would not let CL's views undermine this at all. Of course it is good to ask questions about treatment etc if you feel it would be helpful. THe difference between the people treating you and CL is that i) they have been trained ii) they are accountable. Unfortunately CL it is all very well saying "lets have a debate" but your insensitivity and polarised arguments are quite frankly unhelpful. Of course it is a free society and you can say what you like but it is proving offensive and worse still potentially detrimental.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess
MG I implore you to ignore CL's comments and concentrate on moving forward with the support you have available from trained professionals and trusted friends. Depression is a difficult condition but it is very treatable. It is not a sign of weakness, a character flaw , it doesn't reflect a failure it is a recognised and common disorder. Unfortunately I think this thread is now being used to air petty grievances taking it away from the original request to provide information/advice and support to a fellow forumite.
Good luck to all those who meeting this challenge at the minute.
This is getting out of hand now. Do you realize what impact this could have on someone suffering from depression and the serious implications that could happen as a result?!Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
You were making a very good valid point about thyroid related issues, and then you post this. Most people are trying to give advice as you were in the first instance, all be it some difference of opinion but generally trying to help. This comment is just damaging, and I really hope the admin have the sense to remove it.
I urge all to simply ignore this statement by C.L, its the single most rude, and damaging comment I have ever had the misfortune to read on any forum.
Whilst I may not agree with some of the content of Egor's posts I'm pretty sure both of us have posted what we have out of the passion for the jobs we do and the fact we want to help people get there lives back. Add to this the countless number of years of training and on the job experience we have both had. Had I Known this thread would come to this, I wouldn't have got involved - and may well steer clear of such threads again in the future.
i agree with this and MG post, while debate and conflict is sometimes productive, its getting personal, with personal and professional jibes (eavsey) . if I was the originator of this post, id be avoided it like the plague now, which I will.Quote:
Originally Posted by eavesy187
No personal or professional jibes were intended on my behalf. I just really struggled with you dismissing numerous posts of advice as nonsense, especially that of thyroid function, I would question anyone who said the same. My post about treating those more acutely unwell or at risk isn't a jibe - it's just reality, unless psychotherapy works very differently in Wakefield. Whilst I acknowledged that therapy has it's place, its also not for everyone - you seemed to propose that it's the ONLY answer - again I would always question this. I have re-read my posts and really don't see any personal or professional jibes other than questioning your judgement and advice - which I and others feel was the right thing to do. You'll also see in one response to C.L I was actually sticking up for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by egor
No offence was intended, and sorry if it came across that way.
I don't mean to sound patronising or trite but speak as someone who has worked in mental health services for quite some time....Quote:
Originally Posted by eavesy187
I wonder if there is a lesson to be learned here....I think comments from both yourself and egor have been well intended but that it has been possibly unhelpful for the people requesting advice to hear professional differences of opinion (in such emotive terms) being aired in a public forum?
Whilst I think it is important to look at everyone's opinion it is perhaps confusing for users of mental health services to hear such differences as they are coming from a different perspective and may not have the contextual information that those in the field have to understand some of the comments made.
Anybody working in mental health services will be aware that lively debates/differences of opinions on various subject matters occur and that this is quite healthy and indeed productive at times as long as it takes place within an atmosphere of mutual respect. I think eavesy you have tried quite hard to put forward a balanced view and it is a shame that the process has somehow got carried away. I am sure that with a period of reflection people will find some useful comments on this thread (and ignore the hot air!!!)
Thanks for the post Freckle. When I got involved in this thread all's I intended to do was offer advice based upon my experience, and as you have noted put forward a balanced view - I didn't dismiss any current treatment that people may be receiving, I only suggested things which I felt would be of benefit. I never imagined this thread would turn into what it has, and I will now think twice before joining in such threads in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by freckle
You are welcome. I think it is always a difficult dilemma with threads such as these to know whether to get involved or not I know I struggle with it myself!Quote:
Originally Posted by eavesy187
I suppose it's a weakness of the medium. You can't condense the necessary information and enquiries into a couple of paragraphs and not expect some-one else to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by freckle
Yes a very good point BL, i think the heart tells us to comment but the mind says "don't bother!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad
I'm sure we all wish Stagger well and it's clear he has lots of support on here and that plenty of others have been in similar circumstances (I can't say I've reached the grand age of 52 without a few wobbles on the way) and, I hope too, he will have got further support from private messages and friends closer to home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad
Very well said :o
Just a note to Mountain Goatess & Stagger, thanks so much for posting here, there appears to be a lot of learning going on about how to use this medium effectively, especially with such a subject and for me certainly this has been very useful and I thank you both.
I've followed this forum for a while and, from reading both your various posts, it seems to me you are both intelligent, humourous, articulate & perceptive individuals who can probably discriminate between wheat & chaff. Sounds to me MG like you are absolutely spot on in your approach So, IMHO you made a bold but good call to post & I thank you.
And thankyou Duncs for providing a non-judgemental, helpful and positive post in a nice friendly manner. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by duncs
I will certainly be taking some of your advice onboard, especially concentrating on those little moments of enjoyment such as mindfulness of the nature around us, reading a book or listening to a favourite piece of music....for although these are small things, I have been unable to relax/enjoy for a long time but have recently realised how much I have really missed them in my life. I know I am on the up as I am also starting to look forward to things again. :cool:
Thanks again for your kind advice ;)
Good post BL. I'll give Stagger all the support i can as he's close to my home and wish MG all the best from afar:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad
Such a shame a lot of threads on here degenerate into arguments but that's life i suppose:(
Thanks for your good wishes Steve and hope you are doing ok and getting on well in the new job.Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylegs
I have noted of late that there seems to be alot of bickering and arguing on this forum...what's it all about man...I mean yeah, sure, everyone is entitled to there own opinions/views on things but really is there any need at all for some of the quite disrepectful and ferocious comments some make? It's so easy to vent ones opinion in a manner which shows respect to others feelings. You and I both know that but it's a shame some can't see beyond there own noses.
Absolutely merry on all counts. Stagger and MG have many good friends on here who I'm sure will be supporting them in any way they can, me includedQuote:
Originally Posted by merrylegs
No need for disrespect and big nosed posters should be ignored:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess
DT mentions good friends, we all know who they are:)
Hang on I'm just recovering from a 'Judge Judy moment.'Quote:
Originally Posted by freckle
MG has implied by her silence to my question, that she hasn't been tested for thyroid. If that is so the 'trained professionals' haven't done their job properly, by ruling out a legitimate cause.
As I've said before the 'trained professionals' are giving out pills like 'Auntie Maggie's Remedy,' because it pacifies people. Most of these people have no abnormal brain chemistry, yet the pills they're given are designed to manipulate these chemicals, so they feel something artificial.
In other words the pills repress normal grief processes, allowing time to pass without any psychological pain.
Or her silence means she doesn't wish to discuss these matters in public.
I do agree with your point about the pills, though. In my own case, mid 90s, post Bosnia, pre-divorce, classic mid-life crisis at 36 years, I was put on Seroxat. I stopped taking them after 2 days, because they turned me into some zingy, pepped-up character I simply didn't recognise or want to be.
You're getting over excited. I said 'some,' meaning not all. Anyway why would you want to suppress something that is true? I don't subscribe to the 'nothing is anyone's fault,' philosophy, just like I don't dress to conform to the 'scruffy jeans brigade.'Quote:
Originally Posted by eavesy187
If Stagger doesn't want to hear what I've got to say, then he can tell me and I'll delete all my posts, and then get lost.