To drink or not to drink

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Originally Posted by Flopsy

If I could run a marathon as fast as Paula then I don't think I'd need to stop for a pee either!! ;)

But I'm not even going to get into this debate as I know what works for me, as I suspect do many others here.

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I too used to think that drinking worked for me - and - in my first 7 London marathons, did what was suggested and drank like everyone else. Difficult not to, particularly with 2 of the main sponsors being a bottled water company and a sports drink manufacturer. Then Berlin for the first time - water in cups, not bottles, and bitter sports drink - took very little in - about a cup of liquid all told - and did not suffer at all. Berlin for the second time, drank nothing, best time for 8 years. I have continued to drink far less than most of those around me, often nothing, and as far as I can tell, I actually do better in the longer events than I do in the shorter ones. As I have tried to explain, there is a scientific basis for what I do, and it does not work for everyone. Do you really know what works for you, or are you actually, with the best of intentions, handicapping yourself? I regularly run with people who used to carry drink on their long runs - they now know it was not needed.

I am never one to carry drink needlessly but Mike T what (clearly) works for you would never work for me. In the summer, on a hot sunny day even, I can do a hard 10 miles in the hills (say 1:45 hours or so) without having to worry about carrying drink. But up the distance to say 15 miles and, without drink, I'd burn out. First off I'm a sweaty blighter (think of a hill running version of Lee Evans) and secondly the hills in the Yorkshire Dales are totally exposed without a shred of shade - on a hot day its like being in a very green and grassy desert! After long run outs my face, around the eyes and behind my ears especially, is actually salt encrusted! Therefore I typically carry one (normal size) bottle of drink for a 15 mile run and two for 20 - for something like the 3 peaks in the the heat and sun 3 bottles are needed but I know where streams are for top ups and would just carry two.

And obviously running solo in the hills where you have no bugger else around to call on, its pretty important to know what you need on the drinks front. Its a bit different running a road race where in my experience there seem to be water stops all over the place.

I did 20 yesterday on a fairly warm sunny day and took about a litre in my bumbag bladder and had about half of that left at the end. I don't tend to need huge amounts of fluid when running, but I do need some

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Originally Posted by Stolly

I am never one to carry drink needlessly but Mike T what (clearly) works for you would never work for me. In the summer, on a hot sunny day even, I can do a hard 10 miles in the hills (say 1:45 hours or so) without having to worry about carrying drink. But up the distance to say 15 miles and, without drink, I'd burn out. First off I'm a sweaty blighter (think of a hill running version of Lee Evans) and secondly the hills in the Yorkshire Dales are totally exposed without a shred of shade - on a hot day its like being in a very green and grassy desert! After long run outs my face, around the eyes and behind my ears especially, is actually salt encrusted! Therefore I typically carry one (normal size) bottle of drink for a 15 mile run and two for 20 - for something like the 3 peaks in the the heat and sun 3 bottles are needed but I know where streams are for top ups and would just carry two.

And obviously running solo in the hills where you have no bugger else around to call on, its pretty important to know what you need on the drinks front. Its a bit different running a road race where in my experience there seem to be water stops all over the place.

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Have you tried weighing yourself before and after one of your 10 mile runs - naked/empty bladder both times - to get a true idea of your fluid requirements? Remember weight loss and fluid loss are not the same thing - if you lose say 1kg then your fluid deficit is less than this, so less than 1 litre, BUT to refill your glycogen stores AND make up any fluid deficit will involve taking in more than 1 litre. Difficult to come up with a good analogy but think of a car with 2 petrol tanks, one a reserve - the reserve prevents the normal tank from becoming empty so that up to a point the engine continues to run - but at the end of any significant journey both tanks need refilling. Using glycogen liberates/generates water, a bit like the reserve tank. Will it be enough to meet your sweat requirements? Varies from person to person, and of course with temperature/duration/etc.

Their are 2 very similar questions that I could ask myself at the end of one of my zero intake marathons - with very different answers.

Firstly - how much should I have drunk during the event to prevent a drop off in my performance - in other words to prevent any significant change in my intravascular and extracellular volumes? Answer: zero. Proof? Of course I cannot prove it, but my times were fine, particularly Berlin II, and with very little slowing down in the second half.

Second question - how much do I now need to drink to restore my water/glycogen stores? Answer: Lots! - several litres - and of course loads of calories.

It is very easy for people to confuse these 2 questions, answer the second instead of the first, and condemn themselves to an inferior performance because of excessive intake - particularly if they have to carry their water supply with them.

Please note I am NOT saying everyone's intake should be zero - far from it, but I think the average runner drinks too much, to their detriment, and this applies particularly to those who carry their own supplies over hilly terrain.

Mike - how exactly will your weight loss not be entirely due to fluid? I understand your glycogen stores will be depleted but where does that weight of glycogen go? I don't know much about what happens to glycogen during exercise (other than it being broken down into Glucose) but I can't work out where it goes to? Surely that weight can't disappear. My science is a bit rusty....

You'll be proud of me Mike...I did 18 miles without a drink today...but only because in my rush to leave the house I forgot it! Could have done with a drink after about 15 miles...but then again I always feel tired, aching legs at that point! This was on tarmac...
I would consider it quite irresponsible to NOT take fluid with me on a solo hill run however!

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Originally Posted by Rob Furness

Mike - how exactly will your weight loss not be entirely due to fluid? I understand your glycogen stores will be depleted but where does that weight of glycogen go? I don't know much about what happens to glycogen during exercise (other than it being broken down into Glucose) but I can't work out where it goes to? Surely that weight can't disappear. My science is a bit rusty....

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Some of the weight you lose is glycogen - converted to energy/heat, water, and CO2 - and you breath out the CO2; so you can lose a few % of your body weight without necessarily being dehydrated.

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Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess

You'll be proud of me Mike...I did 18 miles without a drink today...but only because in my rush to leave the house I forgot it! Could have done with a drink after about 15 miles...but then again I always feel tired, aching legs at that point! This was on tarmac...
I would consider it quite irresponsible to NOT take fluid with me on a solo hill run however!

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Well done! I bet you did not miss it as much as you thought you were going to. I only did 16 miles today - not even thoughts of needing a drink.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Well done! I bet you did not miss it as much as you thought you were going to. I only did 16 miles today - not even thoughts of needing a drink.

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No not really....seeing as I needed a pee for most of the way round! :w00t:

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Some of the weight you lose is glycogen - converted to energy/heat, water, and CO2 - and you breath out the CO2; so you can lose a few % of your body weight without necessarily being dehydrated.

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I would be surprised if it amounted to that much though really. I'm sure the bulk percentage of weight loss during exercise will be in fluid. Interesting

Quite frankly I'm struggling to understand Mike T's point. If I'm thirsty I have a drink and if I think I'm going to be thirsty I take a drink with me. I couldn't give two hoots about glycogen and CO2 :).

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Quite frankly I'm struggling to understand Mike T's point. If I'm thirsty I have a drink and if I think I'm going to be thirsty I take a drink with me. I couldn't give two hoots about glycogen and CO2 :).

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...but carrying water may, under some circumstances - race not too long, weather not hot - result in an inferior performance - that's the point ....

Hi Mike
Interesting stuff. You have helped me work out my hydration strategy for the Edale Skyline.

One thing I have noticed though is no matter how much beer I drink the night before, I always wake up thirsty.:wink:

I think Mike's point is valid. When marathon training I'd do 20 mile runs without water and had no problems at all. My thinking was that if I was physiologically trained to run that far dry, then on race day going further and faster and with water available, I'd get a good result. This worked for me under say 70 F. Hotter weather definitely needs more water intake.

Of course, water is readily available every 3 miles on a marathon if you need it. It's usually available on the fells too, though not necessarily in the right place. I usually carry a small amount on the hills as a reserve, and drink and top up wherever possible. It's a different sort of running, hard climbing can increase your body temperature, wearing too much clothing and carrying a few pounds in weight can do the same. So there are more variables compared to a simple road race.

People differ from each other, but I think that if you're 'sweating like a pig' and leaving salt crust on your face, there's a possibility, at least, that your body is carrying too much of both and is trying to get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

...but carrying water may, under some circumstances - race not too long, weather not hot - result in an inferior performance - that's the point ....

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Yeah but I wouldn't carry water on a short race would I? I could equally claim that not drinking water on long races will cock up your performance - the carnage of cramp at the top of Whernside in the 3P being a good example. (And yes before you go all scientific on me I appreciate that cramp isn't necessarily just caused by dehydration).

Just as there are too many variables for what is right for me being right for you (weight, fitness, speed, terrain, distance, weather, ascent, availabilty of streams on route, propensity to sweat and what you're wearing all playing their part), the same goes the other way round. And quoting experiences in marathons doesn't equate to the hills anyway - there are less and sometimes no water stops in fell races, they take longer per mile, always include steep climbs usually right from the off and runners often need to carry more safety equipment and clothing, which all adds to them being able to get hotter quicker. I haven't ever run a road marathon and the only longish road races I have ever run are the Coniston 14 and the Langdale half and in both those road races, despite them being quite hilly, I've not needed much water.... and not needed to carry any in any event because of water stations. That though means diddly squat when up in the hills, especially solo running.

.....and when they find out that using 1 kg of fat results in the production of over 1 litre of water ....

This may be of interest/help:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/h...rHydration.htm

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Originally Posted by Stef F

This may be of interest/help:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/h...rHydration.htm

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Do note the sponsored links. See the following from the Medical advice section of The West Highland Way race:


3) I further recommend, on the basis of the literature evidence, and my interpretation of it, application of nature’s guide to fluid replacement, thirst. We should not be surprised that nature allows some degree of fluid loss while exerting ourselves, before developing thirst. My impression is that, when drinking by thirst, 2-4% weight loss is normal, non-detrimental and hugely (but not totally) reduces the likelihood of EAH. I note the articles which describe these findings accept this state of affairs, identify its advantages, but hold back from recommending 2-4% weight loss directly, although do so indirectly by implying we do not aspire to weight maintenance.

4) Finally, sources of guidance on fluid replacement are provided by the various authoritative bodies, including the International Marathon Medical Directors Association (IMMDA, 2006) which advocates a fluid intake during marathon running of 400-800mls/hr, and the American College of Sports Medicine, 600-1,200mls/hr. Based on the lesser intensity, through greater distance, of the WHW race, you should expect a fluid intake at or below the lower limits of these recommendations. You will note these recommendations, in keeping with much of the literature I have read, demonstrate a difference in opinion on fluid intake between South Africa and the United States, with the Americans generally advocating greater intakes, often advocating weight maintenance and drinking in excess of thirst, if necessary, to achieve that. In drawing your own conclusions, it may help to know the fluid consumptions of the two most seriously ill athletes with EAH from the 2005 race were 500 and 600mls/hr, with sodiums 127 and 120mMol/l respectively (<130 = EAH). The limited evidence from the WHW race to date does not, in my opinion, support the American recommendations.

EAH is exercise associated hyponatremia - water overload - nasty, can even be fatal, sometimes with very little warning.

I expected to lose weight in a marathon, about 3 or 4lbs, principally water. I always found afterwards that 7 or 8 pints of Guinness filled this lacuna to my satisfaction.

I believe it's the case that, whilst no-one has died of dehydration in a marathon, several have died of hyponatraemia.

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Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad

I expected to lose weight in a marathon, about 3 or 4lbs, principally water. I always found afterwards that 7 or 8 pints of Guinness filled this lacuna to my satisfaction.

I believe it's the case that, whilst no-one has died of dehydration in a marathon, several have died of hyponatraemia.

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Or inebriation in your case BL! :D

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Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad

I believe it's the case that, whilst no-one has died of dehydration in a marathon, several have died of hyponatraemia.

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I think most of us can (and do) manage to find a happy balance somewhere between the two!! :wink:

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Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad

I always found afterwards that 7 or 8 pints of Guinness filled this lacuna to my satisfaction.

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A man after my own heart, nowt like copious amounts of Guinness after a good run, Bloody Marvellous:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Mike T

....water overload - nasty, can even be fatal, sometimes with very little warning.

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This is ridiculous! I'm just talking from personal experience when I get very very thirsty on long runs; I'm not talking about trying to drown myself!!

I never realised that having a drink of water could be so complicated - my head is spinning from reading this thread. I like fell running because of the lack of technical know-how and equipment needed to get out there, so I think I'll keep my happy ignorance on this technical matter :)

You are quite right, Eleanor, and fell-running being a grassroots, bottom-up sort of sport (may Allah be praised), that's just how it should be.

I suppose the point is of more relevance to road running, where over-commercialisation brings inexperienced people in who feel (and indeed have been told) they have to drink constantly. I expect we've all seen 10k races with people carrying bottles and even Camelbaks and, even then, you'll get complaints that there is not enough water on the course, as if drinks at the start, halfway round and at the end are a dereliction of duty.

I, for one, didn't realise that the use of glycogen in the energy pathway released water, though it makes perfect sense now Mike has pointed it out.

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Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad

You are quite right, Eleanor, and fell-running being a grassroots, bottom-up sort of sport (may Allah be praised), that's just how it should be.

I suppose the point is of more relevance to road running, where over-commercialisation brings inexperienced people in who feel (and indeed have been told) they have to drink constantly. I expect we've all seen 10k races with people carrying bottles and even Camelbaks and, even then, you'll get complaints that there is not enough water on the course, as if drinks at the start, halfway round and at the end are a dereliction of duty.

I, for one, didn't realise that the use of glycogen in the energy pathway released water, though it makes perfect sense now Mike has pointed it out.

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I think that is what many of us have been trying to say, that just cause we drink doesn't mean we are drinking loads and loads with the risk of over-hydrating.

I'll never be a top of the pack runner anway and so feeling comfortable with my hydration levels is more important than getting my maximum performance.

Personally I struggle with the fact that I am not a scientist. So one scientist / medical boff says one thing and another says another and because science is not what I know everthing one person says makes perfect sense but then so does eveything someone else says too. I don't have the knowledge base to distinguish what is technically 'right' and what is technically 'wrong'. I don't know who to believe as they all sound convincing. So me personally (and I suspect others) feel overwhelmed with all the info and think b***er it I'll just do what feels right for me.

yeah fine but ...

What MikeT is arguing is that you can be less concerned about carrying and drinking loads of water: to me that means you can be less encumbered and frees up the running experience. It's one less thing to worry about.

Just cos it's expressed scientifically doesn't mean it's complicating anything - it's actually the opposite.

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Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo

yeah fine but ...

What MikeT is arguing is that you can be less concerned about carrying and drinking loads of water: to me that means you can be less encumbered and frees up the running experience. It's one less thing to worry about.

Just cos it's expressed scientifically doesn't mean it's complicating anything - it's actually the opposite.

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Not complicating things for you maybe. But Mike is saying the exact opposite to other 'scientists / medical bods (who say that just a small level of dehydration affects the peformance), so who do I believe?

If I don't carry water, I will feel thirsty, so I will be carrying less but feeling worse. I also have a medical reason why I cannot become dehydrated without consequences.

Also many places have so many tourists etc nowadays that I can't guarantee I would be happy with the natural water supply en route. It's not a reliable source. Sure on the more remote runs (such as MM's) but not many of the more local runs.

I like others (I suspect) don't carry so much water that I feel encumbered. Just enough to stop my thirst and stop the start of dehydration.

Which just goes to show we all have a Goldilock spot.

(Did I just write that?).

understood flopsy

Leaving MikeT's theory aside, I think on balance people - me included - have probably become overconcerned with hydration, as wisdom has been accepted - though the evidence and science behind it is pretty flimsy - that one has to drink so much every 20 mins or whatever.

From experience I reckon that: dehydration does affect performance - but only after a lag time, and probably only at fairly high aerobic work rates.

i.e., at a stately pace of say 5mph over the fells, as long as I was well hydrated when I started and conditions weren't warm, I could get away without drinking anything for maybe two hours before it had an impact. Even then it might be more psychological than physical - I might feel thirsty and worry about it.

I would probably feel the effects of dehydration after I finished but it wouldn't slow me down. Also if I wanted to suddenly up the pace I might then start to feel the effects.

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Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad

Which just goes to show we all have a Goldilock spot.
(Did I just write that?).

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hehe, yes you did - what does it mean?

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Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo

yeah fine but ...

What MikeT is arguing is that you can be less concerned about carrying and drinking loads of water: to me that means you can be less encumbered and frees up the running experience. It's one less thing to worry about.

Just cos it's expressed scientifically doesn't mean it's complicating anything - it's actually the opposite.

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I don't think most of us do carry or drink LOADS of water on the run; just enough to feel comfortable. And filling a bottle with a pint of water and carrying it up and down a few hills on a belt round my waist really isn't that complicated.

Sorry, even though I'm bored with my own argument let alone Mike T's, I can't help myself saying one last thing. I totally understand about not drinking for the sake of drinking but in one of Mike T's posts he used the example of running a marathon with just a small cup of water. The point I've been trying to make (and seemingly failing with) is that trying to run a similar distance in the hills on a hot day (but with 5,000 odd feet of climbing and bogs and tussock grass and whatnot thrown in) on the self same cup of water would be effing stupid. I've been out in the hills loads of time completely and utterly desperate for a drink, so dehydrated I've long ago stopped sweating. I've collapsed from heat exhaustion during a race before and fainted another time after a very long and hot 6 hours in the hills. Lets just say that I've tried the not drinking thing before (albeit not purposely) and know precisely what liquid nowadays I need to take with me on long hot runs. And its more than a cup of water.

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Originally Posted by Latege

I don't think most of us do carry or drink LOADS of water on the run; just enough to feel comfortable. And filling a bottle with a pint of water and carrying it up and down a few hills on a belt round my waist really isn't that complicated.

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Precisely :)

If you feel thirsty have a drink....simples! :D

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Lets just say that I've tried the not drinking thing before (albeit not purposely) and know precisely what liquid nowadays I need to take with me on long hot runs. And its more than a cup of water.

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Me too. My simple equation goes "hottish day + longer than 60 minutes hard terrain at speed = take small bottle of water in hand".

I second that (although I put it in my bumbag/backpack). Seems like common sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Eleanor

Me too. My simple equation goes "hottish day + longer than 60 minutes hard terrain at speed = take small bottle of water in hand".

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Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess

If you feel thirsty have a drink....simples! :D

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Works for me Mountain Meerkat. And if you fancy a Guinness after simples too, unless the pub don't serve it, then it's not so simples and downright frustrating!

If in doubt ... As the great man used to say - Drink!http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...ed=0CCgQ9QEwAA