But that's always been the case, and it used to fill up every year with a long waiting list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanneke
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But that's always been the case, and it used to fill up every year with a long waiting list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanneke
I think it must largely be the competition from other events - when I did my first KIMM the Saunders was the only other 2 day mountain marathon - now there are a number to choose from, and not that many people do them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toreador
Yes, I meant if one has the choice between doing a MM in the summer, with better chance of good weather and no freezing temperatures at night, or one at the end of October, the OMM was always going to suffer. Don't think the Borrowdale 2008 debacle helped much either... Truth is, we are all getting softer ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gej
Just rummaged through some old maps........have found rhe 1989 Howgills. It was a Harvey map and extended the existing Harvey Howgills map. The competition area included from the M6 in the west to 3.5 k east of Mallerstang Edge . The start was Ravenstonedale and the Elite went W to Hooksey, then back East zig zagging to Wild Boar Fell then continuing S East to just above Cotterdale, N to below the summit of Mallersatng Edge, then W to Little Fell, then South back over Mallerstang Edge down to the bottom of the map to East Baugh Fell/Tarn Rigg. It then went NW over awest Baugh Fell to some bog that was called a stream junction. The camp must have been near Ulldale House as that is where I have the last control marked. Cant find Day 2 but it was incredibly long, we retired half way through Day 2 as my partner (Anne Stentiford) had a bad hip and we couldnt move fast enough to complete within the cut off. The same map area has been used for other MMs in the area. Wouldnt be surprised if they just revise the old map with the Wild Boar Fell, Mallerstang edge extensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toreador
Cheers. Wonder what the deal is with training in the Wild Boar/Mallerstang area? Obviously the Howgills (my main training area) are out as that's been announced, but anywhere else adjacent is just guesswork.
It could also go south towards Dent/Gragareth/Whernside, though the Capricorn's also been held on the Wild Boar Fell area, so presumably the landowners are sympathetic round there.
Yes they could well go south. Exactly the same Harvey map, with minor revisions, was used for the 1998 Kimm and also the Saunders in ( i think ) 1993. No idea about access regarding running in the area as am based in S Cheshire and only visit for MMs and races. I think in good weather it could be brilliant, but 1998 was appalling! Have fun :)
if it was a Harvey's map, were the previous events maps at 1:40,000 scale and 15m contour interval?
Some old OMM maps I've seen(not based on Harvey's) use a 10m contour but a 1:40,000 scale
Yes, standard Harvey vintage, 1:40,000 and 15m contoursQuote:
Originally Posted by drmorris
Thanks for that. Trying to get my head round the different scale and colouring by training with the Harveys of the Peak District
in terms of training, without breaking any rules about recce'ing the area beforehand:
http://www.darkandwhite.co.uk/challe...sp?race_id=367
Dark and White's first mini MM of the next series is into the Howgills area, from Sedbergh.
Seems like as good a training event as any(I'm in for OMM medium score). Its a 4 hr score event.
Me and my OMM partner are in for it.
In case anyone's wondering, I asked Jen and they're waiving the "no visiting the area" rule just for this race :)Quote:
Originally Posted by drmorris
Good to know. My partner wondered if we should have entered under pseudonyms!
To all experienced OMMers out there...
I've done a lot of long events - BG, Fellsman, Lakes 100 etc.
I even did the OMM around 1994 when it was the KIMM, but I was very inexperienced then and I've not done an overnight camping event since.
I've just entered this year's OMM to do a proper navigation event and because it's in one of my favourite areas.
Question:
How minimalist can you get in terms of food, cooking and sleeping kit without it getting daft/dangerous?
Not sure I can answer in terms of 'daft' because that could mean anything. I think folk who set off with a 50L rucksac are daft but they sure are gonna be safe and comfy at the overnight.
In terms of staying safe, my partner & I did Elite last year and I think at the start of day 1 his rucsack was 3.1kg & mine was 3.2kg. Weather wasn't ridiculous but was consistently poor all day and we were fine on the hill. I also had a full change of dry clothes for overnight inc spare thermal, fleece and long tights, day 2 would have seen me wearing the spare thermal plus wet shorts/socks from day 1 if we hadn't retired due to injury in the morning.
If we'd had to stop on the course for any length of time (e.g. injury), i'd have had to put on spare kit to stay warm enough but surely that's the whole point of carrying minimum kit requirements?
Sacks used were modified Last Drops (10L).
I can't see anyting above 15L, certainly 20L being strictly necessary, and that would allow for more than ample spare warm kit plus a hell of a lot of food.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevinbyTorchlight
Chevin - thanks for that. The clothing info is very helpful.
I suppose I'd like to know how you get your sack down to 3.2kg...
Depends on how minimalist your kit is. We can just about get ours into two 20L sacks, but usually take a 20 and a 25. Outside the top runners, the vast majority of people have 20 or 25L sacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevinbyTorchlight
I'm sure you would :pQuote:
Originally Posted by MarkL
After a couple of events doing 'B' & carrying far too much kit, I realised my ambition was restricted by the weight I was having to carry, and it was also making my legs very sore on day 2 due to the extra impact on descents.
Gradually reduced amount of kit taken over next couple of years and then I spent a bit of cash on a lightweight tent & sleeping bag which made the biggest difference. Developed a fairly reliable menu which avoided carrying loads of unused grub, moved to fuel blocks (no stove + no gas = big space & weight saving). Experience also helped with carrying the right amount of kit for the conditions, before i'd been scared of getting cold overnight and taken far too much kit with me.
The simple answer is I generally now use everything I carry at some point in the race, with maybe a bar or 2 of day food left over as I still worry about not having enough if the course turns out to be a monster. And i've learnt how to pack it all into a really small rucksac!!
Final details arrived in post today. Was hoping for a brighter car sticker as my dark windows will conceal it - bah!
Need to work out how to fit everything into last drop 10l sac. If I take my 25l sac I'll only fill it to the brim! I think the weather will determine what I take.
Easy - make sure your partner takes a 35l bag :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mapper
Don't give him any ideas! :w00t:Quote:
Originally Posted by Toreador
3kg and 10l sacks are pretty extreme, even on the Elite class. I got everything in a 15l sack for a couple of solo MMs, but it resembled one of those "snakes in a can" tricks when I opened it at mid-camp, and I expended a significant amout of energy on the morning of day 2 pummeling everything back in. I now use a 20l sack which weighs virtually the same and makes life easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkL
Solid fuel blocks is a great shout. Much lighter and smaller (and cheaper) than gas and stove, and it's not like you don't have a few extra minutes in camp to wait for your water to boil. Spending a bomb on a light tent makes a massive difference. You can get a Terra Nova sub 700g job for maybe £300. Lightweight sleeping bag makes a big difference too. Beyond that it's how light your clothing and food are, and how much of each you need to take to survive (or be comfortable, but I'm guessing you're a survival kinda guy).
Another tip from my previous OMM partner is rather than taking dry socks for day 2, simply cook day 1's socks in the morning. It looks and smells a little odd, but he tells me they sure are toasty. I tend to go with wet, cold socks.
What course you doing? Hopefully see you there.
Thanks Hank, great response.
Just dug my old Terra Nova tent and my "lightweight" sleeping bag out of the garage. Tent - 1550g. Call it 800g each.
Sleeping bag 800g.
I was thinking along the lines of solid fuel so thanks for confirming that.
If I remember correctly my kit for the Lakes 100 including food, clothes, headtorch, waterproofs etc came in at around 4kg so I suppose being optimistic we're talking 5 - 6kg for the OMM unless I go out and splurge a load of dosh. We're doing the B course and we're not out to be particularly competitive so I reckon what we've got will suffice.
I like the sock tip - but I find that toasting socks make them a bit crisp!
One more question - what to sleep on - air bed, Karrimat or bubble wrap?
Yeah, hopefully see you there. If not, come the Lakeland 100 I might be one of the endless stream of 50ers who tell you that you're awesome.
1.5kg for a tent is pretty jurassic - 1KG or below is standard for most Terra Novas now.
My sleeping bag is c.800g. Top guys will be carrying 300g ones, but I'm too much of a skinflint to shell out for one at the moment. I also enjoy being warm.
Big Bubbled bubblewrap feels amazing and warm after a day on the hill - although only carry enough to go to your bum. The laminated map will provide enough insulation for your feet.
Mark- my terra nova laser ( not even competition version) is under 1kg
PHD sleeping bag under 500g (silk liner ads 100g and I WISH i had tajen it a couple of weeks ago in alps)
Get my sack to under or around 5kg even less (without water) for MM even solo
Now use Neo Air as bed- my hips and knees appreciate it and the extra weight is minimal compared to the comfort and extra insulation, so can use lighter sleeping bag further into autumn
Have not used the solid fuel - did experiment with foil trays one year- and would never do it again!
Did you have to cut bits off to get down to that weight? Mine is about 1.2kg.Quote:
Originally Posted by karen nash
Though I still sometimes take my Laser Large (1.6kg) instead - if the weather's foul then it's hard to stay dry in a tent that's meant for 1, and a good night's sleep can be better than the slight advantage gained by shedding 400g.
It's not that long since a 2kg tent was at the cutting edge of lightweight kit!
Karen, definitely give the solid fuel a bash. I still use a pan, but I use it with an 11g titanium tripod that holds the fuel block (cost about £8). It folds in on itself so takes up virtually no space when packed. You can ditch the stove altogether and just use rocks to put your pan on and put your fuel block on a square of foil. This method has passed kit checks at both the OMM and LAMM! If you're using solid fuel I recommend a sheet of foil to use as a wind-break.
Mark, for a sleeping mat I use this stuff: http://www.screwfix.com/p/radiator-r...FcYMfAodai0AMA
It's super light (from memory about 70g for a 4m length). It's basically foil-backed foam. Take 4m in a roll and you can double it over to get 10mm thick, 2m long mat. The foil means it keeps ground moisture out and provides mega insulation. The roll itself can be lashed to the outside of your pack if space inside is an issue. And it's cheap as chips.
That's stove, fuel and sleeping mat for about 100g weight and change out of a twenty pound note.
Hank, Karen, Toreador, Ba-ba and all - thanks for your very helpful tips. When I occasionally manage to elevate myself to have a serious query on this forum it usually pays off big time!
Foil backed foam, titanium tripod, jurassic tent, "lightweight" sleeping bag, toasted socks it is then!
Talking about MM equipment, on the minimum equipment listfor the OMM is a survival bag, Iwanted to take my RAB Gortex Bivi bag, does anybody know if this would be OKinstead of the plastic survival bag?
Many thanks
Tahr
Don't see why not, it's more substantial (and heavy) than the minimum requirement. But if in doubt, email Jen, she usually replies pretty quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
I have an old, orange, heavyweight 'survival bag' which I must have had since... ages.
Seen similar for sale now 'Highlander' type brands. Heavy, but you'd be glad of it if you needed it.
There are much lighter, light gauge polythene ones available - I have been lent one - which I assume would pass the kit check.
Planning on running with one of each in our team
Also available in foil
Best is the foil bag as it's the lightest you'll get and fairly cheap too. It must be a BAG and not a blanket though, so check carefully if buying one ~ they look the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toreador
My thoughts were to use the Bivi bag with my sleeping bag inside when in the tent, therefore have a little more warmth if it is cold. My kit overall would not weigh more and I would have a better mountain shelter if things did go pear shaped.
This is only my second MM so advice is much welcomed.
ATB
Tahr
I don't have experience of this, but have been told that sleeping bag inside BiviBag is NOT the way to go, as any moisture you create has nowhere to escape, resulting in a damp sleepingbag and all the trappings thereof. Whether foil bags are more breathable I don't know.
Use the BiviBag as an extra layer of insulation under you/makeshift boat when you get flooded out in the night.
I've been pondering these as alternatives to the foil-backed foam. Slightly heavier but much warmer :w00t:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
If it's cold then I take a silk liner, which adds a few degrees to the temperature.
The only time I've ever bothered using my (foil) survival bag was in the infamous Borrowdale OMM, in a futile attempt to stay dry.
Nice option. Room in your porch for a little 'un?Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
I think whichever way round you were to use a survival bag/sleeping bag combo condensation will be an issue. Have had to lay my surivival bag over the top of me before to shield drips in a single skin tent. I think it probably added a bit of warmth too.
Derby Tub, that might put the be a tight fit in my 32lt OMM rucksack.:confused: As my RAB survival bag is Gortex I was hoping that condensation would not be a problem, maybe wishful thinking:o, I will try it out next weekend while I am camping. I have a couple of silk liners too use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
ATB
Tahr
I've posted this in Sales and Wants as well, but I have a team entry available for the bargain price of £80, if anybody's been thinking about it but not committed yet.
Cheers
Finding the 3.1kg figure amazing. I was at 4.8kg for the Rab (solo) and thought I was doing pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
I've been through my kit list, and if I wear leggings instead of shorts (to save packing the leggings), invest in a new warm top and lightweight head torch, switch to solid fuel, and take a partner instead of going solo, I think I can get to 3.8kg.
Sleeping bag is 566g, and the rucksack is 210g, so I don't see much scope for improvement there, nor on the rest of the kit (e.g. waterproof top 220g, pertex overtrousers 130g).
So it must be the food??
My breakdown for solo in the Rab was:
2 * couscous == 200g
dry pasta 65g
200g fruitcake. It goes down well, and has lots of calories.
Porridge for breakfast 110g
tea bags + sugar - 26g
energy bars 130g
energy gels 300g. Extra weight because they're isotonic, but I've tried the ones which need lots of water, and the hassle of planning my water pickups/drinking around gels outweighs the (small) weight saving.
electrolytes 100g
SIS rego 50g
hot chocolate powder 17g
custard powder 28g
cadburys chocolate 56g
dry pasta 65g
supplemented by picking up a cliff bar at the 2nd day start as my emergency food for day 2.
Base on the left-overs, and some bits of limited value, I could save about 160g. Leaves me with 540g to find to get down to a 3.1kg weight. I have actually considered re-sewing my sleeping bag to a shorter length, but I don't think it'll save much....
Do people just take much less food than me?!
I'm not sure how anyone manages to get their pack down to near 3kg on solo classes. I'm reckon I'm usually something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by nutkey
Pack, tent and sleeping bag: 1.6kg
Waterproof jacket (200g) and kegs (200g – not Pertex), warm layer (250-320g), hat/buff, gloves and leggings (can’t run in them): 750-800g
So I’m at about 2.4kg before any food:
10-12 gels – 500g
3 x super noodles – 300g
Something sweet and a sachet of custard powder – 200g
Couple of flapjacky/cereal type bars for the morning – 200g
Coffee bag – 10g
That’s another 1.1kg, so 3.5kg before first aid kit, stove, fuel, lighter, pan, mug (for stream drinking on the move), probably a cap, protein drink sachet, sleeping mat, compass, spork, headtorch, survival bag and anything else I might’ve forgotten. All of which must put me somewhere getting on for 4.5kg before I add fluid, which I’d set off without depending on location and temperature.
I reckon I could save weight with new waterproof bottoms and a lighter pack, so sub-4kg might be possible. Beyond that I think I’m looking at seriously compromising what little comfort that lot offers, and I can’t see that improving my performance.
Edit: the above gels would only be enough for say a 6/5 hour score event, I'd probably take additional Mars/Snicker type bars for longer events.