New safety rules

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Originally Posted by Britta

With just a few days left on the FRA committee, I hope the following comments are seen as they are meant - a defense of people who do a lot of work and take on a lot of responsibility for little Thanks - rather than a pat on my own back!

It irks me when these debates talk of the runners and the race organisers 'against' the FRA - the FRA committee consists of nothing but fellrunners and race organisers - many very very experienced.

These runners and race organisers have to make some very difficult decisions on behalf of the FRA membership and I can assure everyone that we don't sit round the table at meetings and think up means to make the sport more complicated with ever increasing rules, just for the sake of it. All decisions are made with the best interest of the sport of fellracing in mind and are usually a direct response to something we've been forced to deal with!

Luckily there are some very capable people on the committee to take on some of these issues - it could be very scary and overwhelming otherwise!

Britta

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Then why not treat runners with the same respect? the bin bag comment seemed needlessly dismissive of the argument, which is clearly valid, that a defined HH would be preferable..

Instead of explaing why a defined HH is not needed the author decides to use a needlessly dismissive and poorly constructed argument by using the big bag... you would expect, one with experience could formulate a suitable argument...

Afterall we have recently had 'what is a suitable waterproof' come up when an RO rejected a waterproof.. which by almost all possible definitions was a waterproof jacket.. so it is something fell running has had to deal with...

Well I've decided to make a curmudgeon like stand and, to quote Jack Black in School of Rock, 'stick it to the man'. I intend to hold to my deeply held principles and continue to fold my race number and pin it to my shorts. I will also wear my windproof if I want to even if it means I'm lugging my waterproof too (that'll show 'em) and may even run topless if my tan needs topping up.

Join me comrades

http://www.sovietsub.co.uk/acatalog/redstarsmall2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Britta

With just a few days left on the FRA committee, I hope the following comments are seen as they are meant - a defense of people who do a lot of work and take on a lot of responsibility for little Thanks - rather than a pat on my own back!

It irks me when these debates talk of the runners and the race organisers 'against' the FRA - the FRA committee consists of nothing but fellrunners and race organisers - many very very experienced.

These runners and race organisers have to make some very difficult decisions on behalf of the FRA membership and I can assure everyone that we don't sit round the table at meetings and think up means to make the sport more complicated with ever increasing rules, just for the sake of it. All decisions are made with the best interest of the sport of fellracing in mind and are usually a direct response to something we've been forced to deal with!

Luckily there are some very capable people on the committee to take on some of these issues - it could be very scary and overwhelming otherwise!

Britta

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Couldn't agree more; the target of frustration should be the minority who believe that the few simple rules do not apply to them. They are the cause of proposed changes.
- The man who entered an AL in the Lakes as his first fell race, with by his own admission no map or compass skills. Survived by playing follow my leader.
- The woman, who ran round an AM race course including all the check points and finish funnel, without having entered.
- The man who ducked out of a finish funnel, before his number could be recorded.
- Those who fold their race number to the point of being illegible, making it difficult to record finishers.
- Those who won't carry kit, but expect others to look after them if they get into trouble.
- Those who argue that a bin liner is acceptable body cover (yes really, Iain)
- Those who enter, but don't start, and fail to inform the RO. Similarly those who drop out of a race, and go home.
- RO who place finish funnels on downhill slopes, race number recorders who stand at the start of a funnel; yes both points are specifically mentioned in RO guidance.

All it takes is to read the rules and documentation, ask if not sure, and cooperate. If not, we may well find that a 3rd party starts to dictate how the sport is controlled. Cue ambitious but incompetent politician.

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Originally Posted by TheGrump

Those who fold their race number to the point of being illegible, making it difficult to record finishers.

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Haha. A couple of weeks ago I was at the first checkpoint of the Carlton Midsummer Meander fell race in the north york moors and one runner turned up with his race number pinned nicely to his chest, totally unfolded..... but it was the wrong way round with the number on the inside. Doh! :)

Having just read the PDF, I hardly think the "bin bag" comment is dismissive, it seems that a lot of people are taking umbrage at something or nothing. Perhaps fell runners don't possess common sense when deciding what constitutes a waterproof, turning up at a race with a bin bag for a waterproof is frankly taking the p*ss.

Many of the rules have come about because of incidents and accidents that have happened in the past - it would be stupid for the FRA not to learn and advise from these. Like it or not, if we want to race then there are going to be rules.

Note that I am not and never have been an FRA committee member so I'm not on any particular side of the fence.

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Originally Posted by IainR

Expected to you to comment on the National committees...

Can't see what WA have to do with Fell running.... think we all know the WFRA are far more present in welsh fell running...

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Que?? Utterly bemused by what you seem to have read into my post!

It reminds me a bit of Bruces sketch from Monty Python but in this case all the even numbered rules would read "no d..k heads"

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Well I've decided to make a curmudgeon like stand and, to quote Jack Black in School of Rock, 'stick it to the man'. I intend to hold to my deeply held principles and continue to fold my race number and pin it to my shorts. I will also wear my windproof if I want to even if it means I'm lugging my waterproof too (that'll show 'em) and may even run topless if my tan needs topping up.

Join me comrades

http://www.sovietsub.co.uk/acatalog/redstarsmall2.jpg

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As long as you dont run without your shorts:w00t:

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Que?? Utterly bemused by what you seem to have read into my post!

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I read nothing into your post... it was the WA in the PDF..

Bob.. yeah sure the odd person will say a binbag etc...

But we now have jesus knows how many jackets available.. you can understand confusion about what is waterproof... we have shower proof... water resistant.. water proof.. treated materials... such vague ambiguous terms.. but the one constant measure is HH....

I get quite a few requests for info on gear from people looking to start fell running due to various articles and you can't blame people for the confusion.. it seems a petty the FRA didn't use this to specify a HH... lots of other bodies have, it seems common sense to me.

Clearly a bin bag doesn't satisfy the new criteria (and old) wasn't hood specified, it is now at least..

But there is still a huge continuum of potentially suitable jackets...

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Originally Posted by Britta

With just a few days left on the FRA committee, I hope the following comments are seen as they are meant - a defense of people who do a lot of work and take on a lot of responsibility for little Thanks - rather than a pat on my own back!

It irks me when these debates talk of the runners and the race organisers 'against' the FRA - the FRA committee consists of nothing but fellrunners and race organisers - many very very experienced.

These runners and race organisers have to make some very difficult decisions on behalf of the FRA membership and I can assure everyone that we don't sit round the table at meetings and think up means to make the sport more complicated with ever increasing rules, just for the sake of it. All decisions are made with the best interest of the sport of fellracing in mind and are usually a direct response to something we've been forced to deal with!

Luckily there are some very capable people on the committee to take on some of these issues - it could be very scary and overwhelming otherwise!

Britta

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Sorry your irked Britta. But there's plenty of fell runners and race organisers on the forum here. Perhaps with something to add, perhaps with lots of experience as well and maybe with wider experience than just fell running.
Also who do a lot of work and take a lot of responsibility for little thanks.
So it's not exclusive to the committee Britta.
We are all in it together and whilst I agree we have to be mindful and respectful of the committee members that accept this responsibility on behalf of the sport, they have to reciprocate.
I'm sure that you'll appreciate that anyone who puts themselves in to such position whether committee, selector, RO - they always will get some criticism and a thick skin is needed a lot of the time. The measure of them is often how they handle that.

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Originally Posted by IainR

but the one constant measure is HH....

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IainR - the Hydro static head test is a measure but there's plenty of suitable products out there where you may not be able to find the test results and even then, at what standard.
Even in industrial PPE where they use EN343 it's not clear.

The 2 options are really to just ask for full body cover and leave it to the athlete to make the decision of the material type, or to ask for waterproof material with taped seams.

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Originally Posted by IainR

I read nothing into your post... it was the WA in the PDF..

Bob.. yeah sure the odd person will say a binbag etc...

But we now have jesus knows how many jackets available.. you can understand confusion about what is waterproof... we have shower proof... water resistant.. water proof.. treated materials... such vague ambiguous terms.. but the one constant measure is HH....

I get quite a few requests for info on gear from people looking to start fell running due to various articles and you can't blame people for the confusion.. it seems a petty the FRA didn't use this to specify a HH... lots of other bodies have, it seems common sense to me.

Clearly a bin bag doesn't satisfy the new criteria (and old) wasn't hood specified, it is now at least..

But there is still a huge continuum of potentially suitable jackets...

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The fact that there are so many jackets out there means it would be impossible to police it by specifying the HH rating. A race organisor would need a huge database of kit to check whether a given jacket meets / doesn't meet the requirements.

Looking at Pete Bland's website, http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/5/6/120/123/ 7 of the 10 jackets listed as waterproof specify a HH rating

One jacket listed as "Meets Fell Runners Association standards" clearly isn't waterproof! http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/pro...jacket-210.htm

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Originally Posted by TheGrump

- The man who entered an AL in the Lakes as his first fell race, with by his own admission no map or compass skills. Survived by playing follow my leader.
- The woman, who ran round an AM race course including all the check points and finish funnel, without having entered.
- T.

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re the woman.. annoying but its hardly anything that can be tackled by rules.. just education.. racing without registering is pretty common in some countries so we're bound to see it..

re follow the leader... common too.. the best thing the FRA did here was cheap nav courses...

I know.. but at least its good guidance for those buying....

As at the moment you can understand the confusion.. its confusing enough for us..

I don't think much has changed.. so its not a big deal anyway.. just think an opportunity missed..

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Originally Posted by IainR

re the woman.. annoying but its hardly anything that can be tackled by rules.

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No, but the guidelines can make sure ROs don't count them as a legitimate runner and miss someone still out there by making assumptions, this also happens possibly if you have someone inexperienced taking numbers at the end...

But this was all the same previously no? When racing on open roads or open fells.. open access land there's really not much you can do..

Basically we need chip timing.. :-)

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Que?? Utterly bemused by what you seem to have read into my post!

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What I meant by WFRA.. is as I udnerstand they insure most fell races in Wales.. so when discussing safety requirements I think all bodies should sing from the same page.. it seems strange to have two fell races,, held a few miles apart, say in Shropshire.. one witH FRA and one with WFRA insurance.. I know the FRA have/had WFRA reps so maybe just include them so its all one system.. one set of guidance.. keep things simple..

Where fell running is concerned.. actually at te grass roots.. its the WFRA which matter really..

Anyway now leavinG Bavaria back to the flat lands.. so long drive... :-)

Well, quite. We re-established the WFRA to mirror the eFRA in the principality in response to the presumptuous, non-democratic, non-discussed land grab for fell running in Wales made by WA.:wink:

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Well, quite. We re-established the WFRA to mirror the eFRA in the principality in response to the presumptuous, non-democratic, non-discussed land grab for fell running in Wales made by WA.:wink:

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So is the WFRA free to set its own rules? Can't work that one out.. the safety document seems almost identical to the FRA one, and Scottish SHR.

The SHR site says races can be insured through SHR or SA, but the SA website seems to imply that races must at least be registered with SA.

I suppose we could but, as I said, that was not the point of the resurrection at all. Rather, it was to ensure that the management of the sport in Wales took it's lead from FRA directly and not from an imposed quango. So yes, we adopt the FRA documents in full. Our committee has been discussing the new rules for a while now ahead of the public consultation just so we have our opportunity to feedback direct to Graham et al.

I just wasn't clear where the WFRA stood on that. As our mountains are higher, shouldn't the FRA follow our lead? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy093.gif

Maybe we could have a UKFRA, after all they all seem to be seeking consistency :w00t:

WARNING!!!!!! CAN OF WORMS ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:w00t: Of course

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Originally Posted by LissaJous

I just wasn't clear where the WFRA stood on that. As our mountains are higher, shouldn't the FRA follow our lead? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy093.gif

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Well, that's very true. As you know the trick of great leadership is to support from below rather than to pull from above!!

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Originally Posted by IainR

re the woman.. annoying but its hardly anything that can be tackled by rules.. just education.. racing without registering is pretty common in some countries so we're bound to see it..

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Originally Posted by bigfella

No, but the guidelines can make sure ROs don't count them as a legitimate runner and miss someone still out there by making assumptions, this also happens possibly if you have someone inexperienced taking numbers at the end...

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Which neatly illustrates that it is not necessarily the action itself, but the potential serious consequences of that action that should concern us.
Telling the idiot, "Please don't do it again" does little to help the legitimate entrant left on the hill.

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Originally Posted by Will_B

Maybe we could have a UKFRA, after all they all seem to be seeking consistency :w00t:

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Some folk would be happy with a YFRA just for Yorkshire!

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Originally Posted by LissaJous

So is the WFRA free to set its own rules? Can't work that one out.. the safety document seems almost identical to the FRA one, and Scottish SHR.

The SHR site says races can be insured through SHR or SA, but the SA website seems to imply that races must at least be registered with SA.

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The UKA "family" I referred to consists of UKA, EA/FRA(for fell running), WA and NIMRA. All of these Permit races which are covered by UK Athletics insurance.

About 8 years ago a large proportion of the fellrunning community in Wales became disenchanted with UKA/WA managing their sport. As a result the Welsh Fell Running Association (WFRA) was established and now the majority of fell/mountain races in Wales are registered and insured with the WFRA and not with WA. The WFRA operates completely independently of UKA/WA and has its own insurance. The WFRA are indeed free to set their own rules but have chosen to model them on the FRA ones.

Similarly in Scotland there are two bodies, SA(part of the UKA "family") and Scottish Hill Runners (independant of UKA) who offer insurance for fell/hill races. However in Scotland I think most race organisers still obtain their Permits/insurance from SA/UKA.

Whats the issue with running without a vest on? I take it its just the fact that they don't want numbers pinned to shorts and or folded, well being a RO ive never had a problem with reading numbers pinned to shorts folded or not or is it just to keep the sponsors happy! it tends to only be a small percentage that do it myself being one if its hot and I don't want to wear a vest or if its wet and I don't want to keep un zipping my waterproof top and getting colder and wetter! all other times its on my chest un folded on a white vest so it doesn't stand out any better.

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Originally Posted by Woodzy

Whats the issue with running without a vest on? I take it its just the fact that they don't want numbers pinned to shorts and or folded, well being a RO ive never had a problem with reading numbers pinned to shorts folded or not or is it just to keep the sponsors happy! it tends to only be a small percentage that do it myself being one if its hot and I don't want to wear a vest or if its wet and I don't want to keep un zipping my waterproof top and getting colder and wetter! all other times its on my chest un folded on a white vest so it doesn't stand out any better.

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If the sponsors logo was folder over that would make the number easier to read wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by Will_B

If the sponsors logo was folder over that would make the number easier to read wouldn't it?

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If we are carrying a sponsors name should we not be paid for this???

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Originally Posted by Stagger

If we are carrying a sponsors name should we not be paid for this???

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From the oxford dictionary :-
noun
Sponsor meaning

• 1a person or organization that pays for or contributes to the costs involved in staging a sporting or artistic event in return for advertising:

Some events would not be viable if not for sponsorship.

IMO Fell racing is a nice simple sport i.e. you see a race you want to do, you check and comply with the rules, do the race, have a good time with like minded folk,thank the RO, marshalls and sponsors that made it possible and then plan your next race.

Can`t be much more simple than that,

If you have a problem with the rules don`t do the event, still simple the way I see it.

Yep you should be on the fra committee.

If I choose to show a name I will and if asked other wise before money changes hands I will make my choice.

You must have great life reading the oxford dictionary.

To be honest I'm all for the proper safety rules but the current draft of the rules is also looking a bit like 'lets add all sorts of other bureaucratic stuff thats not nearly so important while we're at it'. The not allowing folding of numbers and insisting that they are pinned to your vest is just petty dabbling. Insisting on runners wearing a top is overkill to, although given our weather most runners do most of the time anyway. Yes it could a little bit easier to see a number pinned to your chest..... unless you've lost a safety pin, put on your waterproof or fallen face first in a bog..... but, really, whats the problem with pinning it to your shorts? Yep, you're right there is not a single problem :)

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Originally Posted by Stagger

If we are carrying a sponsors name should we not be paid for this???

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No, but you can pay extra for your entry to make up for the loss of exposure to the sponsor leading to a reduction in contribution and an increase in costs to the race organiser.

Well, as a race organiser, I don't plan to DQ people who run topless. Nor do I plan to throw away all of last year's numbers 78 to 400 (or whatever was left over).

I can see the argument for the latter one, but will take this as guidance not mandatory (in the letter of the law). Having said that, I did get confused on my last C&F relay as to the number of people in the race. So maybe I'll start at a number ending in "1" rather than starting where last year's race left off.

I'm a bit bemused by the number on legs argument. I think it's helpful, especially in races with potentially nasty conditions, to be able to put on and take off extra layers without obscuring your race number. Indeed I'm more likely to put a number on my leggings in the (very few) cold races I do, for that reason.

I am impressed by how committed to making fell running better the committee must be. To prepare a 14-page draft document and put it on the forums is akin to standing in the stocks with us all holding wet sponges. After my initial points above, I'd like to add that almost all of the 14 pages (and all the bits that are mandatory) seem to make perfect sense, and I appreciate you're working with my best interests at heart.

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Originally Posted by MargC

The UKA "family" I referred to consists of UKA, EA/FRA(for fell running), WA and NIMRA. All of these Permit races which are covered by UK Athletics insurance.

About 8 years ago a large proportion of the fellrunning community in Wales became disenchanted with UKA/WA managing their sport. As a result the Welsh Fell Running Association (WFRA) was established and now the majority of fell/mountain races in Wales are registered and insured with the WFRA and not with WA. The WFRA operates completely independently of UKA/WA and has its own insurance. The WFRA are indeed free to set their own rules but have chosen to model them on the FRA ones.

Similarly in Scotland there are two bodies, SA(part of the UKA "family") and Scottish Hill Runners (independant of UKA) who offer insurance for fell/hill races. However in Scotland I think most race organisers still obtain their Permits/insurance from SA/UKA.

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Marg, at risk of distracting from a very useful airing of views on the new safety rules, can I just slightly amend what you said about WFRA?
1. It was not that we were so much disenchanted with WA managing the sport it was more to do with the fact that WA was imposed on us with no mandate from the runners who, mistakenly, believed that they were managed by FRA and were members of FRA as a UK wide organisation. There was some rather unsavoury power grabbing by individuals who fed their ego's by taking unelected positions within the WA mountain running committee.
2. WFRA was not established, rather it was resurrected from the moribund remains of the WFRA that operated through the late 80's and early 90's until things went off the rails around the time of BAF. Old WFRA acted as a welsh subcommittee of the FRA and new WFRA sought to restore that order....even though FRA was now effectively an english only organisation.

As a life member of FRA with no interest in other sports I would dearly love for FRA to be UK wide. I consider it to be for me. These new safety rules are kind of inevitable and I salute those who labour at drawing them up. But I still ain't giving up my trusty PB rain suit!!!

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Originally Posted by Stagger

You must have great life reading the oxford dictionary.

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Hey, don't knock it. It really hots up in the second half!

Don't worry, I won't give away the ending:)

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Originally Posted by L.F.F.

Hey, don't knock it. It really hots up in the second half!

Don't worry, I won't give away the ending:)

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No it doesn't, it's boring.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Oh sorry!

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Originally Posted by TheGrump

No it doesn't, it's boring.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Oh sorry!

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"Like":D