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It is called Advan-tic, I have treated my dogs with it, in Germany they have a stick-on plaster that is imprecated with some antibiotics for humans, so long as you put this on the bite within 48 hours it kills the bacteria that cause lymes.Quote:
Originally Posted by stumpy
ATB
Tahr
I think something will be done in the UK over the next few years. LD is becoming more common and will start to constitute a significant health problem in certain areas. Up here, we know of plenty of people who've had it.
As for Avon Skin So Soft, my understanding is that putting that or something similar on would have an effect, not because of the smell, but because of the additional barrier it creates between tick and skin. As for dogs, there is something anti-tick in their worming and flea treatment. We always know when it's time for flea treatment shortly, because one or two ticks start sticking to them, whereas the rest of the time, ticks just don't want to latch on.
As for number of ticks, I'm not sure if I mentioned earlier in this thread, but on an outing at the end of Loch Eil last summer (through deep deer grass in a "de-sheeped" area), I got covered and, when I got back and we worked at removing them all, we reckoned near enough 100!! Not all latched on, but all wanting to. I will NOT be going there during main tick months!
By the way, they're back already this year, which is really early. Wondered what the lump was at the top of Sammy's leg after a run the other day....and ended up removing a fully engorged tick. Take care out there.
Isn't Advan-tic is a spot that should prevent ticks from staying on the dog, but not a vaccine. A specific Lyme disease vaccine for dogs is now available though: http://www.lymeinfo.com/prevent-Lyme/vaccination.html
I got a vaccine to prevent diseases carried by ticks when I grew up in Austria - but it does not protect from Lyme disease :( (http://zecken.at/schutzimpfung/impfstoff/ for those who speak German)
Sorry Britta you are right. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Britta
I have half a litre of Astragalus tincture, of which I have started taking a small quantity twice a day. Apparently it makes you unpalatable to the ticks and they won't latch on. If they do, you up the quantity to something huge for 10 days and that should deal with any possible infection... Still, I rather not get bitten again...
I have already seen the blighters active as well. We have had a wet mild winter, ideal for them... So far I have avoided bare legs out on the hills on the bike or on foot. I may just keep it that way!
However, the idea of avon skin so soft providing another barrier makes me think maybe the oil roadies put on their legs might do the trick... I will investigate if I can create my own herbal tick repellent oil to smother my legs with, wathc this space.
Alas, relapse hasn't gone yet and worried I may relapse further but so far it hasn't deteriorated drastically, fingers crossed!
Found a device in Millets yesterday that looks very handy. It's a credit card size piece of plastic for removing ticks. It has a part for large ticks and a part for small ticks and gives clear instructions on how to remove the tick without stressing them and causing them to vomit! Ideal for putting in your wallet and forgetting about until you need it. Much handier than the tweezers. Here it is:
http://www.lifesystems.co.uk/product...k-remover-card
following a similar discussion on the Mountain Leaders FB page and the increased threat this year I took a tick remover and some smidge(repellent)to Scotland with me...
over 3 days I removed over 20 of the critters that were crawling, and have removed 5 that were well attached.
I put the smidge on legs below the knee and on the arms below the elbow. I had no bites in that area, 2 on my upper arms, 2 on my stomach and bravely one on my nether region..!
so I'd be happy to say the repellent works.
as a foot note and a question I've just been sorting my kit out and found 3 ticks one in a plastic bag,1 on a buff and another on a windproof.
I just wandered does any one know if they can live indoors if brought in by accident
I'd guess that they'd dry out and die pretty quickly indoors.
That is a pretty scary number there IDP!!
Ticks require a high humidity (>90%) to survive off a host so are not likely to set up an infestation in the home (although there are reports of Rhipicephalus sanguineus (Brown Dog Tick) infesting homes in the US. The most common tick to attach to people and pets in the UK is Ixodes Ricinus. They mate on the host (be that farm animal, hedgehog, dog, you) and then the female stays attached to suck blood before laying eggs up to 14 days later. Chances are you would spot this female before she laid any eggs anyway so you won't have an issue with them in the home.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
We've been looking into what's best to repel them. They are belligerent blighters as everyone knows and our standard pet products (Fipronil and imidacloprid based) don't always seem to repel them. Seems DEET on the legs is the best thing (although OK for us we don't recommend this on pets).
In the vet world we have a real worry about the introduction of more exotic tick species due to relaxation of the PET travel scheme. If travelling abroad vets still recommend tick treatment and you should always carefully check your dog before coming back to the UK. A recent random study of pet dogs showed that 15% of them were carrying attached ticks without their owners' knowledge!
That's interesting info brummievet. In terms of repelling them on humans, I think IDP has the right idea, it needs some form of barrier and, to some extent at least, it doesn't seem to matter what it is. I've even found suncream has some effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by brummievet
I'm not surprised that 15% of dogs carry ticks without their owners' knowledge - a lot of people still aren't fully aware of the risk and prevalence of ticks plus they do seem to hide themselves away well, despite always checking over our collie after a trip out on the hill.
It really looks like it's going to be a bad year for them. Even walking Sammy along the lochside (where he wanders through the grass verges), he's picking up ticks. Out on the hill, we both come back with ticks on us. Listening to local knowledge, a good part of the problem up here is the deer population is relatively large, but the sheep, which "hoovered" up the ticks and stopped so many getting on humans, are no longer farmed so the problem is exacerbated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brummievet
Thanks Brummievet, I feel a little happier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr1470
one wonders if we will see an epidemic of lymes, I saw more ticks in 30 minutes on Thursday than I have the rest of my life. every one I speak to says there is a huge increase this year. Midges will be terrible also. I don't envy your loch side walks Richard...
Well, of course, the southern-biased media doesn't pick up on this as a problem but, since moving up here a few years ago, I've been astonished by the number of people I've met who have had Lyme (no "s" IDP!) disease and whose lives have been significantly affected. And it is getting worse, whether that's because of climatic conditions or recognition of the disease, I'm not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Yes you do, you know you do! :-) This morning's stroll in the pouring rain included a couple of mating herons on the shore, a few oystercatchers dive-bombing us (I'm guessing we were close to their young) and a cormorant fishing. Ticks can't spoil that!Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
We will see tick numbers keep rising. This year will be a bumper year for them given the mild winter. Can only follow that number of tick attachments will increase so secondary disease will increase. It's a worry for us vets as much for ourselves as for the animals! For animal impact look up Babesiosis in cattle. Cases of babesiosis in man will also likely go up.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Brummievet, is there anything I can do to stop my cat from getting Lyme disease? I have removed several ticks from her the last couple of days, as well as two from myself, just from being in my back garden :-o
I suffer with Lyme & co as I call it, the 3 bad B's: Borelia, Babesia and Bartonella and according to the Id consultant also Ehrlichia. Still very much affected but slowly slowly getting better.
Paranoid about getting bitten again and also anxious about my little cat and what would hapen to her if she gets infected?
Lyme disease in cats is historically rare in the UK, but cases will probably increase. However, studies have shown that cats seem to be more resistant to Borrelia than us people, due to a better initial antibody response. Therefore, even in tick endemic areas where Lyme disease is present in man, canines and horses, the incidence of disease in cats is much lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanneke
The common signs of the disease that are seen in people are hard to spot in cats because they are so good at hiding illnesses! However, you know your own cat so if she seemed to go 'off colour' I would definitely mention to your vet that you have removed ticks. Cats can present with recurrent temperatures, stiffness, lameness and general anorexia. It can be treated with antibiotics if infection is found. I'd say if you have a worry about your cat (if she's seeming poorly) then visit your vet and mention that you have found ticks on her.
From a prevention point of view, Fipronil based products (e.g. Frontline) have some preventative action against ticks, but I have found a large burden of ticks can overcome this action. One of colleagues has been raving about Seresto collars:
http://www.seresto.com/en/seresto-fo...hat-is-seresto
These have a long length of action and are now regularly recommended for animals travelling to Europe.
The clinically proven best way to remove ticks is with the O-Tom tick removers:
http://www.otom.com/how-to-remove-a-tick
Hope this helps and hope you get better quickly.
Have you lived there long enough to develop a chip on that shoulder? :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr1470
Lyme disease is a rife in NE USA and it still gets ignored by the press. Plenty of Scottish press is based in Scotland, hence why you the back pages are full of the dross standard of football and not the world's best league a few hundred miles away..
95% of all US cases occur in the NE/Midwest and there's not much to be done...
Get ticks off quick, check yourself after runs/hikes, watch out for a rash.. and know the other symptoms if you do get ill.
But press wise it gets ignored.
But winter wise, we've just had one of the snowiest winters on record and it seems the tick population is no different size wise than after a mild winter.
Its a medical issue more than for the public after you've got it, Dr's not picking it up, but over here, in the NE, most if not all will be very aware of it and any condition which has lyme like symptons Lyme will be suspected.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by IainR
People here think I'm a well-balanced individual........I've got a chip on BOTH shoulders :D
Thanks for that, I am a little less worried now. I used a tick twister to get the ticks out and checked the heads were removed as well. I use these on myself as well...
She also gets her monthly spot on Advocate, which I get from the vet. I am just worried that she may get infected, as she gets bitten and I have Lyme myself, so allthough I don't know where I caught it, it could well be here! Ticks are everywhere, even in my back garden! and I have a bit fo woodland behind the house where she loves hanging out. Sheep, rats and rabbits and voles and moce are everywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brummievet
Advocate, whilst a good all round worm, flea and mite prevention, has no action against ticks. You might want to consider a different critter control protocol if ticks are such a problem by you. Fipronil based products will work v ticks and treat fleas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanneke
Thanks Brummievet, will look into this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brummievet
Lyme disease (Lyme borrelosis) is an infectious disease caused by at least three species of bacteria. I have not faced this type of condition actually.
Bit of an update... I was eventually symptom free last July. I then tore my meniscus beginning of august, which resulted in the usual being fobbed off for months. Saw a consultant end of November, had two MRIs, operation end of January. Lyme arthritis has worn away the whole of my right knee.
I have also had two operations on my jaw, due to bone resorption and am left with severe degeneration of the cervical spine.
I am slowly gaining functionality of the knee and some semblance of quality of life.
That is 2.5 years and counting. I need one more op, but I have postponed it for now, as I dearly like to feel well for a bit...
Blimey Hanneke I didn't realise you'd been/were so unwell! Hope all goes well for the future. How much do you get out on the bike(s). I was under the impression you cycled a lot!
Hanneke, so sorry to hear about all your problems. I knew you were bad last year but everything seems to have gone from bad to worse - I thought you had been quiet for a while but imagined you were back cycling hard , how wrong could I be.
Hope it all comes back together this year and whatever you do don't "push it", accept you will only slowly gain your health and strength back but it will come with time and patience, just enjoy being out again when you can.
Good luck for the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brummievet
The hound is on advocate at the moment. Any issue with using fipronil as well?
Generally ticks aren't too much of a problem where we normally run but planning on taking him up the lakes, dales and cheviots over the summer so some protection is in order.
Hi PeteS. Shouldn't be a problem using Fipronil too. Generally we advise leaving 2 weeks between each product just to be safe (although this would be classed as off-license). I use advocate on my own dog and if going to tick areas I have used Advantix with 2 weeks between it and Advocate, which is what Bayer, the manufacturer, recommended to us. I would seriously consider using the Serestro collar now though, which can be used alongside Advocate, as it has been shown to repel ticks. Fipronil products require the tick to bite to work (so means Borrelia etc can still be transmitted). If you don't want to leave a collar on then I would consider advantix over fipronil as there is some evidence it is a better repellant. Always worth taking an O-Tom tick remover too and a good check of him at the end of each day!
Hanneke, I'm so sorry to hear about your illness. I hope you get some semblance of normality now.
Cheers for the advice - will look into it. Always have a dog first aid kit in the campervan which includes a tick removal tool. Thankfully not had to use it yet but we both get a thorough once over after a run through tick infested areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by brummievet
Hanneke, I hope you get back to fitness soon. Thanks for your posts - you have managed to put a positive spin on what can only have been a terrible experience for you by raising awareness for others. A noble thing to do.
Hanneke, as above thank you for the update, that is another tough deal you've been dealt. It would make a valuable 'wakeup' article in the Fellrunner to remind us all how devastating these little pests can be to an individual. Hope you get some semblance of normality through this year.
Also, thank you Brummievet, we've just been having a discussion on dosing our Beagles before the next Scottish trip as the ticks are rising at the moment.
Actually I think that's a fantastic idea. That sort of information would be very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris K
If such an article is written, try and get someone to speak to the many people who have suffered up here in the Highlands. You'll hear some sorry tales. I talked to someone last week who had decided not to have children on the basis that her continuing problems meant that she couldn't be sure she wouldn't pass something on to an unborn child (according to the medical opinion she received).
What was very interesting was that she experienced excellent results from a visit to a local herbalist who has a "ready-made" remedy for what is a common ailment up here. I'll report back when I can, I'm planning to get in touch and make an appointment because I wonder if I have got ongoing problems since some of my symptoms match very closely to those who've experienced LTLD.
Of course, one of the big problems is that Lyme Disease is notoriously difficult to diagnose. The "standard" blood test carried out by the NHS does not necessarily pick it up and it can lie dormant and undetectable for some time before erupting. Not for nothing is it known as The Great Imitator, since it can appear in many guises which are similar to other illnesses.
Ticks are a fact of life up here. Dealing with them is a problem, especially if you have a dog. Spot On does seem to work, in that the tick will bite but will immediately die and drop off. However, I'm not sure that's foolproof and also, having taken great strides in eliminating harmful chemicals from our own lives, we are wondering whether we should be looking for a more natural remedy for Sam the Collie. Anyone got any thoughts on that?
I'm not convinced Lymes disease is one disease from one agent tbh..
I think as we get more and more genetic testing we'll realise it's a number of different pathogenic agents which ticks carry, sometimes Lyme's may be present as well but that doesn't necessarily fulfill Kochs postulates as the disease causing agents. Likewise the early treatement with a wide-acting antibiotic may clear up Lyme's and bacteria and other agents, but could also leave viral agents and even prions..
The range of symptoms and its severity is astronomical.
It's scary really but all we can do is just watch out for ticks, remove them quickly and be very aware of the range of potential symptoms.
There's already some findings of it being other things, closely related:
http://healthland.time.com/2013/07/1...-its-not-lyme/
"Ticks are a fact of life up here. Dealing with them is a problem, especially if you have a dog. Spot On does seem to work, in that the tick will bite but will immediately die and drop off. However, I'm not sure that's foolproof and also, having taken great strides in eliminating harmful chemicals from our own lives, we are wondering whether we should be looking for a more natural remedy for Sam the Collie. Anyone got any thoughts on that?"
Can't seem to sort the quote thing properly...
Anyway, a number of studies have looked at prevention of ticks in dogs. If you have access to PubMed or similar I would advise looking at Otranto and Wall (2008) New strategies for the control of arthropod vectors in dogs and cat. Medical and Veterinary Entomology 22, 291-302.
There is a review of preventatives here including biological and natural treatments. As a general rule they advise a combined approach using medications (such as spot-ons), removal of the ticks and possibly natural repellants. Ultimately, using drugs alone is unlikely to be sufficient.
Biological control has been shown against some tick species using a fungal pathogen, but unless someone corrects me, I am not aware of a commercial practical product available. Some natural plant oils have been shown to have high levels of repellance against Ixodes ricinus (the main tick to worry about in the UK), such as lemon eucalyptus, geranium, chamomile and lavender. The disadvantage of these products over the spot-ons is that they would need to be applied over the whole animal and they are quite short lived as they evaporate away easily. They are also potentially toxic if ingested so they must be used with extreme caution. I guess they may be useful if applied to the legs and your dog wouldn;t lick them, but I'd do more research into it and I certainly wouldn't use them in cats. Remember, without trying to set up a debate about natural vs drug treatment, 'natural' doesn't always mean safe. Drug companies have to jump through hoops to show that their products are safe and effective, whereas you can just buy plant oils and use them as you wish. As a vet I would say use them with caution if your dog is likely to lick them off.
Personally, I have always used DEET for me as I find it most effective although it isn't the nicest of chemicals and I wouldn't use it on my dog in case of ingestion. I'd be interested to know what people think about using DEET??
Very effective but banned in many countries as it's a carcogen.Quote:
Originally Posted by brummievet
Last year I moved to Smidge on many recommendations. I put it on from Knees down and elbows down on my first trip, the only Tick bites I got were by my shoulders and one on my stomach !
next day a fuller covering and no bites. It doesn't contain Deet so I'm sold.
I'd use DEET for odd days but if I was working or living in an area with ticks I'd not..
I would be willing to write an article for Fellrunner Magazine, who do I approach? I haven't been a member for a few years now, too depressing, so not sure who to contact. I think it would be very useful.I have done a LOT of research, largely to get myself well, and know quite a few fellow sufferers. If it would help stopping even one person of getting as ill as I am, it would be worth it!
To answer a question of one of the people above: I can just about walk again. I haven't cycled since August last year and can only do a little bit of therapeutic pedalling, trying to build my wasted leg muscles to support my wasted knee joint. It is dire, but one has to stay positive so the fact that I can now ride the 6 kms to the next village and back is HUGE! Even though it is at a snails pace. I have sold all but two of my bikes, as I can't use them and am not exactly motivated to ride again, as it is such a mega-effort to go a few miles at a snail's pace, but the surgeon has instricted me to pedal, in whatever way, to strengthen my quads and it is the only way. I started off with 5 minutes on the turbo, so the fact that I can now potter for an hour is something I suppose.
The knee is so bad, I am never to run again, not even to the bus... and walking downhill is out of the question too. As I am not strong enough to walk uphill, this isn't really an issue. I have become a couch potatoe I am afraid, with resulting change of shape and weight :'( but I am in less pain than I was a few months ago and can sleep again, which gives me more energy, so onwards and upwards, looking to do 1 hr 15 minutes on the bike soon... I try to get out once a week, but it doesn't always happen, it has to be a good day...
I would be willing to write an article for Fellrunner Magazine, who do I approach? I haven't been a member for a few years now, too depressing, so not sure who to contact. I think it would be very useful.I have done a LOT of research, largely to get myself well, and know quite a few fellow sufferers. If it would help stopping even one person of getting as ill as I am, it would be worth it!
To answer a question of one of the people above: I can just about walk again. I haven't cycled since August last year and can only do a little bit of therapeutic pedalling, trying to build my wasted leg muscles to support my wasted knee joint. It is dire, but one has to stay positive so the fact that I can now ride the 6 kms to the next village and back is HUGE! Even though it is at a snails pace. I have sold all but two of my bikes, as I can't use them and am not exactly motivated to ride again, as it is such a mega-effort to go a few miles at a snail's pace, but the surgeon has instricted me to pedal, in whatever way, to strengthen my quads and it is the only way. I started off with 5 minutes on the turbo, so the fact that I can now potter for an hour is something I suppose.
The knee is so bad, I am never to run again, not even to the bus... and walking downhill is out of the question too. As I am not strong enough to walk uphill, this isn't really an issue. I have become a couch potatoe I am afraid, with resulting change of shape and weight :'( but I am in less pain than I was a few months ago and can sleep again, which gives me more energy, so onwards and upwards, looking to do 1 hr 15 minutes on the bike soon... I try to get out once a week, but it doesn't always happen, it has to be a good day...
Not sure what happened there...
I will have a full knee replacement in a few years. I am really too young for it and would run out of knees so to speak if I had one now...
And it is interesting that there is much more knowledge about Lyme disease amongst vets than there is amongst GPs... Thanks for your contributions Brummie Vet!