Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
Yes you do WP. Don't pretend to be stupid. He used a queue of non-white people because he knew it would have more of an effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
Yes you do WP. Don't pretend to be stupid. He used a queue of non-white people because he knew it would have more of an effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I am nothing to do with him or his party. I suspect I can answer the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I presume because he wanted to use a real picture of refugees in a column in proving EU policy failed. In this case the mirgant stream through Austria to Germany if I recollect it aright.
That actually happened and created massive arguments at the time between many EU countries from which the EU has never recovered. It is EU recent history, I am surprised you missed it. It also cost Merkel her premiership in time. So nothing to do with Farage or his party inventing a problem. All to do with highlighting an actual problem in EU.
I am sure if you showed him a picture focussing on such a mass migration which happens to show white people he would probably use that as well or instead.
But I assume in making such a suggestion, you do actually HAVE such a picture before make the somewhat inane suggestion he should use a different picture to the factual one ? Do you think he should use a real picture, or do you think he should invent one with as you say white people to avoid offending your sense of political correctness? Myself I prefer the real picture.
Trouble is Pat. Whenever I challenge you on points of fact or detail on EU, you never seem to answer. But I would Refrain from calling other people racists Pat. It might get you into trouble, if it is without basis, it is ergo libellous. Brexiteers have had enough of it.
"I don't know, but I assume as it was in reference to Turkey. It was an awful poster, not relevant to any of what I posted."Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Noel - come on - why are you now utilising selective quoting to mislead? I can't say any more than what I did, but just like many you selectively snippet, as if I hadn't given a full and frank answer, when actually I had.
It seems you agree with my assumption, but seem to think I disagree with my own assumption :rolleyes:
Sorry WP. I didn't mean to selectively snip. I think my comment could equally have been applied to your whole sentence. I think it's pretty obvious why he chose to use non-white people in the poster, and I think you side-stepped what Pat was getting at.
But you're right it is annoying when (sometimes deliberate) mis-snips change what you were saying. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
So how do you respond to my answer Noel? Because the picture is a real point of EU history. The migration from turkey and others , through austria to germany, blocked at some borders if It is what I think. It started arguments that still rage today and was a massive failure in EU policy and cohesion.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
A queue of white people would have had to be faked, as would a backstory for it. Unless you remember something I don't? So Pats suggestion is fatuous and a complete straw man. And judging by previous remarks I suspect Pat would be the first to call out such a fake, if Farage had used one, in an attempt to undermine farage by any means.
Is even the truth now expendable in remainers relentless attack on brexiteers?
Background:
I think the cheapshot of calling others racist is disgraceful unless with proof of intent. Brexiteers have had enough of it
If we thought the Brexit shambles was making Great Britain the laughing stock of the world it has just been trumped by the decision to give Shamima Begum legal aid. That really takes the biscuit!
The only upside will be even less people voting for the Con/Lab/Lib parties in the next election.
We need change quickly before this country slides any further down the shithole
I'm not answering, in a deliberate attempt to encourage you to get out running now your knee is better. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
But seriously. My take on it is that Farage wasn't saying "look at the all these people who are going to Germany" like you seem to be suggesting. I think he knew full well this would be interpreted by many as "look at all these people who will come to the UK if you don't support us leaving". If you're talking about fatuous arguments - maybe you'd like to start with this.
And regarding Turkey. That was another scare story. There was no way Turkey was going to be allowed to join the EU. Yes, it had been previously discussed, but at the time was getting more and more unlikely. Am I right in saying it could have been vetoed (and still can) by a single country? How likely do you think it is that the UK would have said yes after the various arrests of journalists etc?
She was a minor when she left - I wonder if this affected the decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
The accession of turkey is hardly relevant. The volume of migrants and refugees is. Add the fact that brussels demands all take a share, and once in the EU they are free to travel.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
The high population density in England is higher than most eu countries, combined with a 10 percent population increase. Something no migrant brings is accomodation, and even the most optimistic house forecasts do not get close to prior migrant numbers. So we have an issue with numbers. It is why we have a problem, and it is why we must control numbes. Farages photo radiates "big numbers" which could be because there were big numbers! Germany took 500000 I recollect!
Despite welcoming tenants of several nationalities I see the flaws in the policies that cause them to migrate here. Until EU solves its own nightmare policies leading to scorched earth in some countries, we have to restrict numbers.
Farage is not Tommy Robinson. The word racist should never be used a cheapshot. Using afake white photograph rather than real one as a sop to correctness is ridiculous. Are you going to ask the BBC to fake news photos, to make all stories race or gender neutraL as well?
I come back to what I said. Accusing anyone of racism without proof of intent is libellous,and cheapshots like Pats are scandalous. Brexiteers have had enough of it. If you detect anger it is because I am angry.
I love it the UK goes into the middle east blowing the hell out of everything and leaves a disaster behind. This contributes to the migrant crisis, I say contributes, because the main reason is different types of muslims cannot live together in pace. But then the likes of Farage urges the UK to pull up the drawbridge to stop the flow of people, which somehow fixes the issue.
I actually agree with some of those sentiments Pat althoughQuote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
Farage cannot be blamed for UK foreign policy if indeed that had influence on the outcome. The arab spring was a homegrown affair, In a dozen countries uprising, and there are serious ethical problems in allowing despots to practice genocides unfettered. Damned if we do. Damned if we don't.
But My objection was to the term "racist" used to describe the wish for selective control over population numbers here, which every advanced country outside the EU already does.
The US is an entire nation of immigrants. They still control who can and cant come, favouring some skills over others. Australia and New Zealand are very selective. I do not hear anyone calling Australia and New Zealand racist.
The mexican border is also a serious problem for traffic of drugs, illegals and tarriff dodging. Any attempt to control that is also called racist. The cheapshot doesnt help
Racist is too often used as a cheapshot, that I as a brexiteer resent.
We have arch remainers Blair and Campbell to blame for that! I always love it when the author of the dodgy dossier goes on about Leave “lies”.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
As far as I can see, Farage himself is not a racist, but the party he founded (the first one, UKIP) attracted racists like a light attracts moths. Farage got so concerned that his main project of taking Britain out of the EU would get submerged in accusations of racism, that he put in place strict rules to ban racists from UKIP. Now that party is being led by Gerard Batten, who seems to think that UKIP stands for United Kingdom Islamophobe Party. Farage has had to dissociate himself from UKIP, while Batten finds himself in a bit of a bind: he can't revoke Farage's rules because that would be openly admitting that UKIP welcomes racists, so we have the bizarre situation where someone who is banned from UKIP membership is taken on as an "adviser".
Meanwhile, Farage has gone on to form a new single-issue party (the clue is in the name). He has no credible plans to deal with all those other important issues listed by Derby Tup, although I am sure he could come up with some clever soundbites to rally the troops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSIsjUqvkfQQuote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
Has anyone on this thread yet pointed out that immigration to the UK from outside the EU is higher than from within the EU (and has been for a long time)?
The main source of "the problem" of immigration has been a strong economy offering jobs to people. If you think leaving the EU will improve the economy, but are worried about immigration, you're on the horns of a dilemma.
https://unherd.com/2018/10/remainers...ion-hypocrisy/Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Interesting piece here from Giles Fraser. I like this guy.
In response to your point Noel, yes they have and of course it has also been pointed out on many occasions in debate away from this thread.
Why do you think that is?
Your link won’t load on my phone Witton. Is it about politics and that Brexit?
Why do I think it's been pointed out? Because pro-leave politicians use immigration as a reason to leave the EU by saying "we'd like reduce immigration, but we can't without leaving the EU". Whereas it's a spurious argument, because (a) we have control over at least half of immigration currently but choose not to exercise any control over it (b) actually politicians don't want to because they know immigration grows the economy and growth in the economy is one of their key performance indicators - rightly or wrongly (I actually think wrongly - growth for the sake of it is a pointless objective).Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Or why do I think it's higher? Because the UK is an attractive place for people to come and live and work. Many of whom speak English, due to language links established from the empire days.
Sorry for not being clear. I meant why do you think the figures from RoW have also increased over the last 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
The thing that amuses me is fellrunners ie lovers of wide-open spaces (we are all fellrunners aren’t we? Not just anonymous internet trolls) moaning about the country being ‘full’. If it’s full where you live why don’t you move? I’m in my mid-50’s and have never lived anywhere remotely full
Wonder why that was, would it becasue the likes of Farage were saying the things the racists wanted to hear. As far as that photo, I linked was concerned, a "truer" one would have been Romanians in a Bucharest bus station queuing to board a bus to London. Only problem is is they would all be white and being honest would look little different to any bus queue in the UK. Much better to use a queue of dark skinned people who are probably all muslim, of which half of them are members of Islamic State.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Farage may or may not be racists, but he has no quams about using those sentiments to achieve what he wants, "the UK out of the EU".
I moved from Rossendale to Blackburn. Didn't think much of it. I was just moving closer to my place of work in Skelmersdale at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
Kept my original GP - but when the out of hours service changes kicked in I had to find a new one. It took me some time in Blackburn. I was lucky to get one it turns out.
I kept my old NHS dentist, but then when he decided to move to only private clients, I couldn't get one in Blackburn and so have a 20 mile drive to one.
I hadn't considered school places. But the secondary schools in Blackburn were full, apart from 2 that were in special measures.
I found after I started coaching at the club, that many Blackburn parents sent their kids out of town to schools in Whalley, Clitheroe, Preston and often these were kids being sent from the wrong side of Blackburn such as one that travelled Darwen to Whalley.
If I'd stayed put in Rossendale, I might not have experienced these difficulties.
As fell runners we are aware of limits on race entries for a number of reasons and sometimes it is down to the capacity of the venue to cope.
The UK does not have the capacity to cope with a ten fold increase in the population growth of the country. That's an opinion, but it's backed up by ample evidence out there.
This is off topic but related to what has just been said. What do people think of how to fix the population dependency ratio issue, because continuously increasing the population is not sustainable.
More rapid increase of the retirement age is a must, but do you also stop dragging out the lives of chronically ill people, with very expensive health treatments?
Given that the population of the rest of the world is vastly more than the population of the EU it is no surprise that immigration from the former is more especially given our historic links with the Commonwealth. I think you're wrong to say that we chose not to exercise any control over it. If we allowed free movement of people from the rest of the world then immigration would be a good deal higher than it is. I think it is indisputable that people from the rest of the word find it harder to come to the UK than people from the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
It is often propagated by remainers that all leavers want immigration to be reduced. In fact for many like me it is much more nuanced than that. I think that it is for the Government of the day to decide the appropriate level of immigration that is suitable for the country given skill shortages and the pressure on infrastructure etc. They are then accountable every five years for that decision and others. At present under free movement of people, those from the EU have an absolute right to come and settle in the UK. So if Oracle is right and the eurozone is on the cusp of another economic crisis, we could see a mass influx of people wanting to come here and there would be nothing we could do about it.
But Farage does have policies and he has said so just a few days ago on his radio show. He said that the policies would be the same as when he was in charge of UKIP. That's consistency for you. For instance no foreign aid is a great policy UKIP held to. You won't get that with Labour or the Tories I.e. sticking to a principle. Simples!Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Noel you're skirting around the issue. Fundamentally the UK doesn't want immigration to welfare. They don't want miles of people coming here for cheap labour jobs or no jobs then having their children's education, health care etc paid by the state. It pushes their already low standard of living further down because they have to pay for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
So it's you Noel that is on the horns of a dilemma. If you want free movement of people - full stop - then you have to abolish welfare because you're going to attract a majority that are attracted by that welfare. The country can't last long with that policy. Simples.
And the thing that amuses me is fell runners are supposed to love freedom but then support policies and parties that control all aspects of their lives. Why is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
All the usual remainer straw men noel. What is the point in answering since the same straw men get echoed ad infinitum. Now the reality.
First. We know who and how many are coming from other than EU - they have to apply to come.
EU can just roll up when they feel like it making the problem uncontrollable.
Second: One thing no migrant brings is accomodation. England (as opposed to UK) is one of densest country for population other than micro states in the EU, and we already have 10 percent increase. Millions. So it is causing a massive accomodation problem. Even the most optimistic forecasts by liars like corbyn, dont come close to housing the migrants at the peaks of flow. In addtion - many of them want to live in London adding to the massive accomodation crisis for own resident. So we have to apply a brake.
It is not our fault EU is so crap, they want to come here.
Third. Every developed country in the world other than EU controls who comes. EU is the exception, not the rule.
SoFor as long as EU is run so badly that many of the youngsters prefer to come here, (causing as many problems for the states they leave as the ones they come to) and until EU gets its house in order and stops laying waste to countries, we have to put on a brake.
I notice our main corbynista has gone. But one reason they come is Britain is run for the many not the few. We have a massive no tax threshold , indeed give it away with tax credits, and most of our tax is payed by the top few percent (Corbyns main slogan is a complete lie, like the rest of his manifesto). In most of the countries that EU lays waste they have a 20 percent tax even for lowest earners and high rates kick in far lower, and they earn far less than we do on average. So all the professionals leave, making the problems worse.
So Until EU sorts out its crap economics, and allows these countries to grow by setting growth budgets, ( by ditiching the euro, and adopting their own interest rates and exchange rat5es) it is it is asking for trouble allowing the flood here to countries run for the many. But like our own parliament has no idea of what is north of watford. in brussels and Berlin they have no concept of how bad it is far away in italy greece or portugal, for many of the EU subjects. Juncker has only one thing to say to them "keep taking the medicine, it pays for myexpenses and berlin is waiting for another trainful of loot, so time to sell your grandmother, if you havent sold her already" From which you can know I take a dim view of EU and the hypocrisy of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Thank you CL, that's very reassuring. I had begun to worry that my only reason for not wanting to vote for the Brexit party was personal distaste for Nigel Farage (which is not a good reason), but now I realise that he does actually have policies that I totally disagree with, like no foreign aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
Chris, sorry I don’t listen to Farage FM. Any other policies please? Maybe things he would do, rather than things he wouldn’t?
Foreign aid, the international transfer of capital, goods, or services from a country or international organization for the benefit of the recipient country or its population. Aid can be economic, military, or emergency humanitarian (e.g., aid given following natural disasters).Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
Yep let’s all live in a country that doesn’t give a toss about anyone else, Farage needs to go and boil his head, he’s a prat :mad:
Question: are there any data on how much tax immigrants pay on average?
Oracles seems to be suggesting they are a net drain on the system. Is this true?
No, and not even close.
You seem to be obsessed with immigrants Noel.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Most Brexiteers don't have a problem with immigrants but only the control of immigration. What's wrong with that?
No I did not. I Suggest you comment on what I did say instead.
I said in the craponomics of the EU , in the countries that Brussels and Berlin have decided to abandon, youngsters pay a bigger proportion of a much smaller wage in tax. They are clearly better off here in their eyes. E.g. Greece Portugal min wage iscless than half of ours, and even that is hit by over 20 percent tax, forced by the rules of Euro budget that prevent them getting out of the straightjacket. The countries have no real choice. The tax rates guarantee a big black market,and a mass exodus and a big inhibition to foreign investment. Professionals head to the richer economies so accentuating the disaster.
The migration problem is caused by terminal dysfunction of the currency union.
Apart from which, only leftloonies think contribution to an economy is defined by tax extorted from people, to be used inefficiently in the public sector. Where contribution is also economic activity in increasing both output and demand, the amount and speed of money flowing in the economy. Successful economies like Singapore don't drag activity down with silly tax rates. It is my belief economies would work better if corporation tax was abolished completely, not least because it taxes an illusion which is why it is hard to define. Up the dividend tax to compensate.
Put the right number in a rowing boat and get them all to pull in coordinated fashion and the rowing boat goes faster. Put more in and efficiency suffers, more still and it actually sinks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
http://www.institutmolinari.org/IMG/...en-eu-2018.pdf
Some interesting points on tax. Simple google searches show the rates etc. Unsure on average wages in these countries but many will probably be lower than UK. Quite a few do have tax free allowances, UK tax does not seem bad in comparison to many. Was surprised at France and Germany being so high tax wise!!
https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/y...mployment-rate
Italian youth unemployment rate, too high but in this thread or Brexit it stated a figure of nearly 50%
https://tradingeconomics.com/about-te.aspx Website address saying 'about us'. I can't take Wikipedia at face value with the number of errors in many pages, hence ignoring that particular site.
Ian.
First point, the comparison I make is no and low tax thresholds.
Germany like us has low tax for low earners. That is not so in the southern states which they tax even low paid substantially, despite earning far less than us.
Euro rules demand it. Which is also why black market thrives, and also the reason for exodus. The more that leave, the more upward pressure it puts on tax for those that remain in the Brussels demanded balancing of books.
France is socialist heaven on tax, and employment law and is also why it suffers.
Macron wants to modernise. Unions won't let him. E.g. The trains are the the least efficient in EU , also the most heavily unionised. The two follow as night and day.
Corbyn plans to bring Britain to a halt in a similar way.
Beware comparisons on headline corporation rates of tax.
German corporation tax is simply not comparable with ours. Chalk and cheese.
The headline rate includes local tax , which is only paid in profitable businesses.
The critical issue is they pay almost no business rates.
Our own business rates are massive,a big proportion of tax for many businesses massively distorting the comparison. With Corporation tax on top.
Business rates are regressive. So paid whether profitable or not, so effectively taxing a loss. So You cannot compare our corporation tax with theirs. Period. Much as corbyn likes to mislead.
The regressive nature is bad for startup or struggling business, and the size of rates a direct impact on retail. It is why our high streets have relatively few EU shopping chains.
Finally. Will people ever do me the courtesy of READING.
Italy is almost two countries, I said 50 percent in the south: the Mezzogiorno and such as Naples, which are the people left behind. It has been getting worse not better. The situation is dire.
And the angry young adults become the populist votes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biaraV2
Try posting something different Oracle
Noel contested an opinion he attributed to me, that I neither hold nor agree with on migrant contribution. I contested,Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
Biara directly challenged a number of mine 50 percent. I justified.
ian raised the comparison of tax, That is a different subject pertinent to Brexit. I explained corporation tax differences that mean headline rates across EU are not comprable. Just keeping the debate honest.
But you are right Tup in one way: most have closed minds on Brexit one way or t'other. And seem to have no or little interest in facts that disagree.
So it is rather pointless trying to debate it.
Trouble is we are about to have Brexit hijacked by remainers because of completely false arguments. Which is not good.