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Thanks for reminding me of this thread Mossdog as first time round my shoulder was out of action and I was waiting for my surgery.
This evening I decided to have a go.
As I do no specific upper body strength exercises I was not expecting much and was not disappointed.
A pathetic 1 min 14 sec. :rolleyes:
Will now do a few daily press ups, shoulder allowing, and try Sally again in a couple of weeks.
Hey! Well done Llani. Actually, that's a great start, especially if, like me, you were just used to bashing out standard press-ups. It's a shock to the system when you get those longer, hovering-in-the-down-position pauses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
I've come to associate the lyrics "Old Miss Lucy's dead and gone, left me here to weep and moan..." with pain, humiliation and defeat (in the good old days these experiences used to be prescribed for proper life-preparing character-building!) :) What more can a fella/fellatte ask from a workout :D
Gawd Blimey!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsWOIaYUBf4
Bring Sally Up... X10 and all in one session.
Looks like he's a RM looking at the green beret tucked in his waistband.
This is amazing. Notwithstanding the physical challenge - the mental strength is so impressive. He's absolutely knackered by half way through.
My press-up sessions have plummeted - 1 set a couple of times a week if that. I can normally manage 35 or so, but using the Sally routine it is down to 12 - oh dear. This chap doing 300 is amazing!
I know! Same here. As mentioned above, I've changed my routine over the past year incorporating eccentric lowering, count of 5, and a 3 count pause isometric hovering at 'the bottom' of each press-up. All to no avail :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
As I gradually age past my prime for muscle strength development I'm going to need some radical 're-framing' to bolster my bruised ego :)
i did a total of 195 pressups last thursday in our club circuit session (in sets of 15).... also 195 squat-thrusts and a load of hurdle-based japery.... oh and 7 miles on top.
i do a fair bit of upper body stuff in the gym, but perhaps 3 sets of 15-25, so the sheer repetition of 195 made me feel a bit sore
Now you're just rubbing it in for those of us who are codgers! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
But, the question is, can you do the Sally challenge? A mere trifle of 30 press-ups in total. I mean, how hard can that be :rolleyes: ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koMp3ei4xJw
I can recall reading that we get the most benefit from the first 2 sets to failure of any resistance exercise - the sets after that do little or nothing in terms of increasing power and strength. But - but - those who did more sets regularly were better at doing more sets! So it depends how the results are measured.
One longstanding rule is to lift what you can lift between 8 and 12 times - if you can't lift a given weight 8 times, lower the weight; if you can lift it more than 12 times, increase the weight. Weight, or difficulty. Doing press-ups from the ground is rather more difficult than press-ups from 6 inches or so above the ground, as are press-ups done using hanging hoops.
My 2 sets of press-ups to failure last week: 42, then 36. Today: 41, then 41. I need to increase the difficulty - I will start with doing them from the ground.
That's pretty much what I'd heard too Mike, except that I thought it was 20 - 30 reps to failure, but I'll try 8 to 12 as that makes sense. I don't do them from chest flat on the ground, but do nose tip on the floor(ensuring my body/head are in straight alignment and resisting the temptation of lowering my face towards the floor). However, I wonder if starting each rep from chest on the floor, if that's what you meant, while recruiting a further set of muscles and range of movement, doesn't undermine the isometric aspect of hovering just above the floor, even if holding the 'hover' only momentarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
I'd also heard that if you are doing press-ups to pass, say a military selection test, where speed and number are important, you should of course train for speed and number. For example, it used to be that the RM selection day asked candidates to do at least 64 press-ups (proper form) in 2 minutes.
I believe it may be true generally, for strength training, that it's usually the last few reps before failure (ensuring correct form) that build the strength/muscle as these are the ones that cause the beneficial micro-tears. All the previous reps are doing is just providing a means of getting you to the point of near failure :) However, there must be a lot more to the physiology (stating the obvious!!!) if fewer than 8 reps is insufficient for efficient strength building.
If you're aiming for 8-12 before failure, you need someone light to sit on you while you're doing them. Then encourage them to put on weight as you get stronger. Good luck ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
At what point is it acceptable to swap out the older child for the younger/lighter model? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by noel
We had this discussion, a couple of years ago, on a different thread. I mention it again, as I had great results on fewer than 8 reps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossdog
When I started fell racing, I discovered that my legs were not strong enough on the descents; they were physically buckling below me as I chased the leaders. In the absence of any real hills locally, I used heavy weights and 1 set of 3-6 squats to build up strength without weight (using competitive weightlifting techniques). If I couldn't do 3 the weight was too heavy; if I could do 6 it was too light and I'd add one kg for next time.
This worked really well for me, (although I appreciate it might not work that well for everyone). I got a lot stronger, without adding any body weight, and it only took a couple of minutes three times a week.
Pure strength work is generally less than 8 reps.... more like 3-5 seems to be accepted.
Endurance would be 12+ (i tend to do 15-20 reps).
Of course there's a balance... i find i can't fit in pure strength work on top of 70 miles a week, so do what i can endurance-wise.
From my reading, strength - for a one off maximum effort - seems to benefit most from fewer than 8 reps to failure; endurance similarly seems to improve most with more than 12 reps to failure; 8 to 12 reps seems to be the sweet spot that benefits both strength and endurance to some extent. I hate to think what could happen to my knees and back with reps targeting purely leg strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Press-ups today - 2 sets to failure, starting from/finishing with chest fully on the floor: 18, then 16. I will try hanging hoops tomorrow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
I'm glad we're in general agreement about the numbers; when I originally read about this, the numbers were like the SML distance categories for fell races (in miles) with:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
1-6 Pure strength
6-12 Muscle building
12+ Endurance
Whilst you would think endurance training would be the most appropriate, I found that increasing (dramatically) my pure strength meant that I was running within my maximum muscle strength so my legs didn't get fatigued. Might not work for AL races, but was successful for me in AS and shorter AM races.
As to how small reps with big weights works, what I have read is that it is a neurological thing. In a squat with only body weight you might only use 60 percent (this is an estimation to make the point) of your muscle motor units. If you then do a squat with an additional 25kg of weight you might have to use 75 percent (again, this is an estimation) of your muscle motor units. What this training does, then, is not tear or damage the muscles to build more of them. Instead, it builds up a better nerve network so when the muscle is contracted at a maximum level it recruits more motor units. That's the theory then, as I understand it. If anyone has any better knowledge, feel free to correct me.
In terms of fitting in strength training, I always did it before running training. I did this because A) I'd read this was the order to do it, and B) I didn't fancy squatting with big weights, on my own, after a hard running session. I was nervous, at first, at what running would be like after lifting big weights, but I needn't have been. I'm not sure if it was adrenaline, or whether it was some sort of hormone release, but after the big weights I felt really great, and very focused, and did some of my best running sessions.
Mike T is right about what could happen to your knees and back. I built up slowly, and I remember feeling a bit of a knee twinge at 72kg. I kept the bar at this weight for about 3 weeks before it felt good and then I continued to increase it. I think slow progress is the secret to it.
I tried doing them from the ground yesterday evening, putting my chest on the ground between each rep. Crikey, I didn't think it would make such a difference, but it really does (at least for me). Brought my reps to failure right down to 26 from over 50. I shall keep doing them this way. Thanks for the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
It would be interesting to see if training with the chest-on-the-floor style of pressups helps with the Sally Challenge, perhaps by improving muscle strength over a greater range of muscle movement. Or, would it be better to train with a specific focus on isometric strength building?
Press-ups using hanging hoops today - the hoops are about 2" above the ground, the down position was with my face level with my hands - 2 sets to failure - 9 then 6. Gosh, it is so much harder than chest on the floor! One of the good things about "chest on the floor" is that there is no cheating - your chest is either on the floor or it isn't, whereas near the floor is a variable concept.
Here's an interesting take on the chest on the floor press-up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9sTjhN4Z3M
Sorry about the annoying Youtube pre- ads!!
After a day off I did hanging hoop press-ups again - 2 sets to failure - 11, then 8. Chest to floor tomorrow.
Hand release does at least guarantee/prove that your chest is on the floor!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossdog
Chest to floor press-ups, 2 sets to failure: 22, then 18.
Just thought I'd say, if you install the "uBlock Origin" browser extension it stops all the youtube ads, so you don't have to see them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossdog
23 and 15 today.
Yaay! It works. Thanks :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by PiesAreGood
How long in-between sets Mike?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
2-3 minutes - I haven't stuck to a definite time - but I should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossdog
29 reps, 3 mins rest, 25 reps. to failure.
Not sure I'd great form though towards the end. To ensure my chest was properly on the ground, as I tired my abs also touched the lino at times! :rolleyes:
There's no significant isometric element to this style, so it'll probably not help with the Bring Sally Up Challenge. But, as 'variety's the very spice of life, that gives it all its flavour (William Cowper)', I'll give it a go for a couple of weeks and set a target of trying to achieve at least both reps hitting the 30 plus range.
24 and 20, with 5 minutes rest. I was planning on going for 3 minutes rest, but it felt too short. I suspect that when I was not timing the rest it was longer than I thought.
Chest to floor press-ups can of course include an eccentric element if the descent is slow enough - 3 seconds or more; eccentrics are supposedly better for strength than isometrics.
30 reps - 3 mins rest - 21 reps! Not sure what happened to the last set. Too much lactic acid from the strain of the first I'm guessing.
25 and 19 with 5 minutes rest.
My down position is everything on the floor - feet/thighs/pelvis/abdomen/chest/forehead/hands. I don't "hands off" - I just relax my elbows.
Any thoughts about the physiological trade-off between a shorter rest leading to fewer reps, vs longer rest and possibly more reps? What's the best for strength gains? Or is it just a case of 6 or 2x3?
I found this:
"To increase strength and power, the best rest period is 2-5 minutes between sets. To increase hypertrophy (muscle growth), the best rest period is 30-90 seconds between sets. To increase muscular endurance, the best rest period is 30 seconds or less between sets."
Whether it is true or not is another matter. But doing the exercise to failure is probably the most important thing.
Cheers Mike - that's helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Re your other post, I also have to rest my abs and pelvis on the ground simultaneously, as mechanically I found it too difficult to touch just my chest down meaningfully.
26 reps (what happened there! :confused: Regression)
3 mins rest
20 reps
3 mins rest
16 reps
3 mins rest
12 reps
3 mins rest
11 reps
3 mins rest
12 reps (!)
3 mins rest
8 reps (thought it best to stop - indeed it was 'an effort to get up off the floor :) )
I'm not going to make a routine of this, but I did wonder how long I could go before 'failure-failure'.:rolleyes:
24, five minutes rest, then 18. I had been thinking of adding at least 1 more set - I will give it a go at some stage.
24 - 18 - 18, with five minutes rest between sets. Interesting. I was going to do another set or two but needed to get out as rain was forecast.
DIY chores and visitors meant a delay in today's efforts. So, with 3 mins rests in between...
30
21
18
15
12
12
11
10
10
I'd planned on continuing until a single figure rep was reached, but the pattern seems to be an exponential decline and there might have been a set or two more perhaps to obtain that level.
Is this exponential decline typical?
I'm not sure how best to utilise the 3 mins rest periods, but have been trying to shake the lactic acid out of my muscles (like that's going to work ;) ) and pumping air into my lungs.
25 - 18 - 18 - 17 - 15. Five minutes rest between sets. I am trying to use the five minutes to get ready to go out for my run rather than just "recovering".