core strength

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Originally Posted by dominion

It isn't.

20 sit ups every other day for core stability and 20 mins on a turbo trainer as hard a possible, without a warmup is all there is to it.

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Marvellous. So just basic running doesn't come into it then?

Wake me up at 6 tomorrow so I can get on a machine. :D

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Originally Posted by Joliver Jim

Marvellous. So just basic running doesn't come into it then?

Wake me up at 6 tomorrow so I can get on a machine. :D

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txt message do?

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Originally Posted by dominion

txt message do?

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I dare you.

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Originally Posted by Joliver Jim

I dare you.

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You don't really expect me to up at 6 after all this Stella?

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Originally Posted by Joliver Jim

Marvellous. So just basic running doesn't come into it then?

Wake me up at 6 tomorrow so I can get on a machine. :D

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Don't bother, JJ, you've already got COR!!!strength:D

Cor??

Hmm well, about 6 weeks ago I saw the physio, second appointment, different person (the first one had given me 3 very gentle exercises for my core, lie on back, legs bent and hold belly in for count of 10, 10 reps, same position, raise buttock, hold & lower, 10 reps then hands & knees, hold belly in for count of 10, 10 reps - I had even found these hard at first, that's how out of shape I was). Anyway, she seemed much more interested in technique, showed me how to feel that the muscle was working, by using it to push against my fingers, located in the hollow just inside my hip bones, and keeping the pressure constant while breathing deeply, later adding a heel slide then a foot raise, still working on the out breath, returning on the in breath. These I think are similar to the Denise Park exercises.

They aren't macho:( , They don't get you sweaty:( , They dont feel like alot of exertion, you do feel it if you do it right, but they don't hurt:( . However they have made a world of difference:D.

You've got to find an exercise that you believe in, Sit-ups feel like you're achieving something, but I prefer planks

Couldn't agree more Scaniagirl:-
"You've got to find an exercise that you believe in, Sit-ups feel like you're achieving something, but I prefer planks."

I think, if you look at the research evidence that there's plenty of high quality stuff to support the use of this type of muscle re-education.... hence why the vast majority of elite athletes do some core work....Paula, Andi Murray, England rugby players, and the rest.........even your golfers!!

I know that it isn't all that you need, but certain aspects of balance and stability work are very pertinent to our activities on the fells....especially if you do some of your "core " work in standing...eg. functional position (for most of us!).

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Originally Posted by Joliver Jim

I never realised running was so complicated.

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It is if you want to get the best out of yourself.

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Originally Posted by scaniagirl

Cor??

Hmm well, about 6 weeks ago I saw the physio, second appointment, different person (the first one had given me 3 very gentle exercises for my core, lie on back, legs bent and hold belly in for count of 10, 10 reps, same position, raise buttock, hold & lower, 10 reps then hands & knees, hold belly in for count of 10, 10 reps - I had even found these hard at first, that's how out of shape I was). Anyway, she seemed much more interested in technique, showed me how to feel that the muscle was working, by using it to push against my fingers, located in the hollow just inside my hip bones, and keeping the pressure constant while breathing deeply, later adding a heel slide then a foot raise, still working on the out breath, returning on the in breath. These I think are similar to the Denise Park exercises.

They aren't macho:( , They don't get you sweaty:( , They dont feel like alot of exertion, you do feel it if you do it right, but they don't hurt:( . However they have made a world of difference:D.

You've got to find an exercise that you believe in, Sit-ups feel like you're achieving something, but I prefer planks

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Scania Girl when you're as unfit as you imply, then almost any exercise is intense.I've seen people out of breath sat down in a chair, because they're in such poor condition.For them, getting up is like running a mile.

If you want real physical improvement(like most women)you have to work hard.Most Physios won't tell you that, because as I've already said, most don't know anything about worthwhile exercise.They'll give you whatever makes you happy.

One other thing.Just because you believe in something doesn't necessarily make it true.Most peoples beliefs are based on that which is easy. Thats why they don't get the best out of themselves.

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Originally Posted by dominion

You don't really expect me to up at 6 after all this Stella?

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it'll be easier if you stay up and then text at 6 and only then go to bed....

Dear Mr Leigh,

I have been fairly fit in the past, and feel that I am coming on in leaps and bounds. Unfit to me was only being able to walk to work 3 days out of 4 at that point, and having trouble with reaching/pulling.

I am concerned that you have had a bad experience with physios, or are in some way out to discredit someone that has spent years training...surely a physio specialising in sport knows alot. I have no idea of your qualifications, but you seem to be some kind of personal trainer.

To be honest I didn't go to a physio to get exercise advice, I went to find out how to return my abs to their fromer selves after an op.

As for the belief, you don't seem to believe in physios, you seem to have come across salesmen posing as physios though, which I never have.

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Originally Posted by scaniagirl

Dear Mr Leigh,

I have been fairly fit in the past, and feel that I am coming on in leaps and bounds. Unfit to me was only being able to walk to work 3 days out of 4 at that point, and having trouble with reaching/pulling.

I am concerned that you have had a bad experience with physios, or are in some way out to discredit someone that has spent years training...surely a physio specialising in sport knows alot. I have no idea of your qualifications, but you seem to be some kind of personal trainer.

To be honest I didn't go to a physio to get exercise advice, I went to find out how to return my abs to their fromer selves after an op.

As for the belief, you don't seem to believe in physios, you seem to have come across salesmen posing as physios though, which I never have.

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Scania Girl I'm just a taxi driver with no sports qualifications.

I'm not discrediting all physios, just stating a fact that most of them know nothing about worthwhile physical training.In fact nearly every personal trainer is the same.

The reason for this is the need for substantial knowledge in the areas of Maths, Physics, chemistry and human biology.Most people struggle with these subjects, hence they can't apply them to physical training.

The job of a physio is to heal injuries in the best way possible.Once recovered the work of a physio is over.To tell you how to train after isn't really their domain, although they may have a personal interest in sports training.

Regards

A physiotherapist trains for 3 or 4 years covering anatomy, physiology, physics and pathology, which obviously includes maths, physics, chemistry and most certainly human biology. The job of the physio maybe to promote healing of the injury, and this is usually by means of physical exercise. This is not to become aerobically fit but the exercises are designed to strengthen the tendons, ligaments, muscles, joints, so they can function properly. I don't think they 'struggle' with these subjects especially if they are sports specific therapists!
Personal trainers do a very indepth course which is specific to the type of work they do. They are not 'all the same'!
Sports physiologists are the guys you need to speak to if you want to go into the maths, physics and chemistry of nutrition and exercise effects on the body.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Scania Girl I'm just a taxi driver with no sports qualifications.

I'm not discrediting all physios, just stating a fact that most of them know nothing about worthwhile physical training.In fact nearly every personal trainer is the same.

The reason for this is the need for substantial knowledge in the areas of Maths, Physics, chemistry and human biology.Most people struggle with these subjects, hence they can't apply them to physical training.

The job of a physio is to heal injuries in the best way possible.Once recovered the work of a physio is over.To tell you how to train after isn't really their domain, although they may have a personal interest in sports training.

Regards

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

No you haven't the resistance is the same i.e bodyweight.

Not only that but you don't produce as much power with one leg working compared to two.Less power means poorer results.

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What on earth are you talking about?! Are you seriously trying to tell me that a one-legged squat is half as difficult as a normal bodyweight squat? That a one-armed press-up is twice as easy as a normal one? That you can do twenty one-armed pull-ups but only ten if you use both arms?

Power is force divided by time. If you increase the force exerted by your leg (notice I even put resistance in inverted commas because it's such a bullshit concept only relevant to those ridiculous fixed motion machines that make you big but sap your capacity for functional strength and movement) by a factor of two (by loading only one instead of two) and keep the time the same then the power is doubled. If you had twenty legs, all sharing the load then the power of each leg would be a twentieth of that if you did it on one, and you're moaning about people not understanding physics.

Anyone with a reasonable level of fitness will be able to bodyweight squat until they get bored. Not many people can do a bodyweight squat on one leg (pistol style), let alone keep cranking them out until the cows come home.

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Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess

A physiotherapist trains for 3 or 4 years covering anatomy, physiology, physics and pathology, which obviously includes maths, physics, chemistry and most certainly human biology. The job of the physio maybe to promote healing of the injury, and this is usually by means of physical exercise. This is not to become aerobically fit but the exercises are designed to strengthen the tendons, ligaments, muscles, joints, so they can function properly. I don't think they 'struggle' with these subjects especially if they are sports specific therapists!
Personal trainers do a very indepth course which is specific to the type of work they do. They are not 'all the same'!
Sports physiologists are the guys you need to speak to if you want to go into the maths, physics and chemistry of nutrition and exercise effects on the body.

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A lot of children spend 11 years at school and still can't read,write or do simple sums.So just because they spend 3-4 years at uni doesn't mean they've grasped principles.

I agree with the rest of what you say.

Regards

[QUOTE=steve456;120134]What on earth are you talking about?! Are you seriously trying to tell me that a one-legged squat is half as difficult as a normal bodyweight squat? That a one-armed press-up is twice as easy as a normal one? That you can do twenty one-armed pull-ups but only ten if you use both arms?[quote]

Hello Steve.I never said a one-legged squat was half as difficult as a two-legged squat.I was referring to power and resistance.You brought the concept of 'difficulty' into it.

Power is force divided by time. If you increase the force exerted by your leg (notice I even put resistance in inverted commas because it's such a bullshit concept only relevant to those ridiculous fixed motion machines that make you big but sap your capacity for functional strength and movement) by a factor of two (by loading only one instead of two) and keep the time the same then the power is doubled. If you had twenty legs, all sharing the load then the power of each leg would be a twentieth of that if you did it on one, and you're moaning about people not understanding physics.
QUOTE]

Steve you've based the above on an error.Power is not 'force divided by time.' It's energy divided by time.This mistake has invalidated everything else you say!

[
Anyone with a reasonable level of fitness will be able to bodyweight squat until they get bored. Not many people can do a bodyweight squat on one leg (pistol style), let alone keep cranking them out until the cows come home.[/QUOTE]

Steve I was the guinness record holder for squats in an hour(2706).I've still got the certificate.

I'll tell you now, that most athletes couldn't last 5 minutes of fast paced, full, free standing squats.

Balls. That'll be me failing...

...Although force is still proportional to energy and you are travelling the same distance too (but I'm still wrong).

2706/hour is a lot of squats very quickly. As such a bodyweight maestro (and I'm honestly in awe and not being sarcastic) I'm quite surprised you encourage resistance machines over free-weights, they seem to be generally regarded as the biggest evil of commercial gyms by the genuinely fit.

Apologies. Steve

[quote=christopher leigh;120107]Scania Girl I'm just a taxi driver with no sports qualifications.


I think that I'd rather look at scientifically based practice regarding core stability from practitioners who can do their jobs (of rehabilitating elite level athletes) AND drive a car.
See papers in respected journals by C.A. Richardson, J.A. Hides, P.W Hodges, E. Ramussen-Barr and the Fellrunner article by Denise Parks...she does know her stuff, as we all have to, in order to justify our existence to NICE, these days.

Keep up with your own training methods, with pleasure, they may well work for you. But try not to use your "singlecase study (of yourself) method" to convince everyone.
Look at the science in a more openminded way than you appear to want to in your posts. (Or, if you are just taking the pi$$ then do so without belittling other peoples experiences.)
Thanks.

[QUOTE=Chugger;120345]

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Scania Girl I'm just a taxi driver with no sports qualifications.


I think that I'd rather look at scientifically based practice regarding core stability from practitioners who can do their jobs (of rehabilitating elite level athletes) AND drive a car.
See papers in respected journals by C.A. Richardson, J.A. Hides, P.W Hodges, E. Ramussen-Barr and the Fellrunner article by Denise Parks...she does know her stuff, as we all have to, in order to justify our existence to NICE, these days.

Keep up with your own training methods, with pleasure, they may well work for you. But try not to use your "singlecase study (of yourself) method" to convince everyone.
Look at the science in a more openminded way than you appear to want to in your posts. (Or, if you are just taking the pi$$ then do so without belittling other peoples experiences.)
Thanks.

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Well said that man! ;)

You mean.;)

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Scania Girl I'm just a taxi driver with no sports qualifications.

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Originally Posted by Chugger

I think that I'd rather look at scientifically based practice regarding core stability from practitioners who can do their jobs (of rehabilitating elite level athletes) AND drive a car.
See papers in respected journals by C.A. Richardson, J.A. Hides, P.W Hodges, E. Ramussen-Barr and the Fellrunner article by Denise Parks...she does know her stuff, as we all have to, in order to justify our existence to NICE, these days.

Keep up with your own training methods, with pleasure, they may well work for you. But try not to use your "singlecase study (of yourself) method" to convince everyone.
Look at the science in a more openminded way than you appear to want to in your posts. (Or, if you are just taking the pi$$ then do so without belittling other peoples experiences.)
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess

Well said that man! ;)

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For the last 6 months or so I have been going to fitball class once a week to improve my core strength. This time last year I was getting aching in my stomach area after very long, off road runs. This year I'm training more, running longer off road and without the pain. So I am a fitball convert.

[QUOTE=Chugger;120345]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Scania Girl I'm just a taxi driver with no sports qualifications.


I think that I'd rather look at scientifically based practice regarding core stability from practitioners who can do their jobs (of rehabilitating elite level athletes) AND drive a car.
See papers in respected journals by C.A. Richardson, J.A. Hides, P.W Hodges, E. Ramussen-Barr and the Fellrunner article by Denise Parks...she does know her stuff, as we all have to, in order to justify our existence to NICE, these days.

Keep up with your own training methods, with pleasure, they may well work for you. But try not to use your "singlecase study (of yourself) method" to convince everyone.
Look at the science in a more openminded way than you appear to want to in your posts. (Or, if you are just taking the pi$$ then do so without belittling other peoples experiences.)
Thanks.

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Chugger if you think I'm joking then you're wrong about me.What gets me is you tell me to look at the science and have an open mind, yet you dismiss perfectly good training advice I gave to another.

What you really mean is you'll only consider ideas from 'respected' sources.Those who belong to your clan and distribute worthless training advice about 'deep postural thing'(s).

Science is all about having an 'active mind' and judging ideas critically, even if they come from taxi drivers.Open mindedness is not applicable to me,or scientists because not everything can be true.

No Christopher. 'respected advice' comes from those that have been there and done it. My previous coach has got numerous athletes to the Olympics, plus I know he has furthered his knowledge from some of the best athletes and coaches in the world - I know this because I've sat with him and the best athletes and coaches in the world whilst he's interrogated them on their training methods. Walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

What works for one doesn't always work for another be there scientific evidence or not. We should all respect one anothers views, evidence and experiences.

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Originally Posted by dominion

No Christopher. 'respected advice' comes from those that have been there and done it. My previous coach has got numerous athletes to the Olympics, plus I know he has furthered his knowledge from some of the best athletes and coaches in the world - I know this because I've sat with him and the best athletes and coaches in the world whilst he's interrogated them on their training methods. Walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

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No one respects advice that's wrong!

Would building up my core strength help me get up the bigger hills?????????

I live,train & race in the North East, and manage ok, but whenever I venture to the bigger hills (Black Combe so far this year) I get aches and pains in my lower back whilst climbing. (This eases with the gradient)

Should I do some core strength stuff or just get on the bigger hills more often?

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Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess

What works for one doesn't always work for another be there scientific evidence or not. We should all respect one anothers views, evidence and experiences.

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Do you respect the views of Adolf Hitler?

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Originally Posted by Nee Bother

Would building up my core strength help me get up the bigger hills?????????

I live,train & race in the North East, and manage ok, but whenever I venture to the bigger hills (Black Combe so far this year) I get aches and pains in my lower back whilst climbing. (This eases with the gradient)

Should I do some core strength stuff or just get on the bigger hills more often?

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It depends on what you mean by 'core strength?'

The aching in your back is just lack of conditioning in that area.Squats and deadlifts with a barbell will strengthen up that area.

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Originally Posted by Nee Bother

Would building up my core strength help me get up the bigger hills?????????

I live,train & race in the North East, and manage ok, but whenever I venture to the bigger hills (Black Combe so far this year) I get aches and pains in my lower back whilst climbing. (This eases with the gradient)

Should I do some core strength stuff or just get on the bigger hills more often?

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Yes NB. Building up your core strength provides a great support for your back. You can also do back strengthening exercises to balance the two.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Do you respect the views of Adolf Hitler?

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I am talking about respecting peoples views on this forum. People don't come on here to be put down. There are alot of very experienced guys on here who have spent alot of hard work, blood, sweat and tears to become as fit as they are. I think you and all of us should respect that they know what they are talking about. going back to what I said...what works for one doesn't always work for another.

Cheers CL & MG....have been to a few circuit sessions earlier in year but found I was aching too much afterwards and seemed to be affecting my training, so I stopped going.
Was thinking about starting again but may just do some basic stuff at home for now.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

I can be quite intolerant.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Maybe a lot of people don't agree with what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Open mindedness is not applicable to me.

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I believe most people on this forum would be in total agreement with these statements.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess

I am talking about respecting peoples views on this forum. People don't come on here to be put down. There are alot of very experienced guys on here who have spent alot of hard work, blood, sweat and tears to become as fit as they are. I think you and all of us should respect that they know what they are talking about. going back to what I said...what works for one doesn't always work for another.

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No they come on here for honest opinions!

The point is a lot of people don't know what they're talking about, and you'll see that a lot of threads involve people disagreeing.

A chap on this thread earlier said that power is 'force divided by time.' It was an honest error on his behalf, but it was false.If no one corrected this error, then some might accept it including youngsters.Debate is about rooting out contradictions in one's philosophy.

By the way what doesn't work doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by XRunner

I believe most people on this forum would be in total agreement with these statements.:rolleyes:

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Quite literally X-Runner;)

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Originally Posted by Nee Bother

Cheers CL & MG....have been to a few circuit sessions earlier in year but found I was aching too much afterwards and seemed to be affecting my training, so I stopped going.
Was thinking about starting again but may just do some basic stuff at home for now.

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The aching will subside after a couple of weeks.Perservere.

Regards

[quote=christopher leigh;120766]

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Originally Posted by Chugger

Chugger if you think I'm joking then you're wrong about me.What gets me is you tell me to look at the science and have an open mind, yet you dismiss perfectly good training advice I gave to another.

What you really mean is you'll only consider ideas from 'respected' sources.Those who belong to your clan and distribute worthless training advice about 'deep postural thing'(s).

Science is all about having an 'active mind' and judging ideas critically, even if they come from taxi drivers.Open mindedness is not applicable to me,or scientists because not everything can be true.

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I have an open mind not because I belong to a clan, but because I want to give myself the best possible chance of doing what I do, to the best of my ability.......if I have some muscles that I don't use well, taking some time to improve seems like a reasonable experiment to me. I DO also do pure strength training, but as this thread relates to CORE STABILITY, I've commented on your input regarding this.

I have never criticised your training........I am happy for you if it works and I would always say that you need to make your own decisions regarding advice. Hence: don't dismiss it, suck it and see!?

What I would question is that you have dismissed other peoples views in such a sweeping fashion: see the quote above regarding "worthless training advice"..........you cannot possibly justify that statement except by turning a blind eye to the sound base of evidence that now exists.

I'm sure I'm not alone in noting one of our gold medal winning swimmers quoting "Pilates" in his chat with Sharon Davies this week.

Take a leaf out of the professionals book, they DO have the best guidance, us mere mortals should try and fly with the eagles, even if we usually end up pecking with the hens!!
Good luck.

[QUOTE=Chugger;121091]

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

I have an open mind not because I belong to a clan, but because I want to give myself the best possible chance of doing what I do, to the best of my ability.......if I have some muscles that I don't use well, taking some time to improve seems like a reasonable experiment to me. I DO also do pure strength training, but as this thread relates to CORE STABILITY, I've commented on your input regarding this.

I have never criticised your training........I am happy for you if it works and I would always say that you need to make your own decisions regarding advice. Hence: don't dismiss it, suck it and see!?

What I would question is that you have dismissed other peoples views in such a sweeping fashion: see the quote above regarding "worthless training advice"..........you cannot possibly justify that statement except by turning a blind eye to the sound base of evidence that now exists.

I'm sure I'm not alone in noting one of our gold medal winning swimmers quoting "Pilates" in his chat with Sharon Davies this week.

Take a leaf out of the professionals book, they DO have the best guidance, us mere mortals should try and fly with the eagles, even if we usually end up pecking with the hens!!
Good luck.

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Chugger I don't just consider 'core training'(ball)worthless, I also think that the advice given in regard to such training is reckless to the point of insanity.

For a professional healer to advocate doing dumbell exercises(and others) on an unstable platform, is tantamount to professional incompetence.

Physios, should know that sudden movements are the cause of a lot of injuries, and yet they advocate unstable training techniques that greatly increase the risk of injuries, whilst doing nothing for fitness.

The science of proper physical training has been available for decades.In this day and age though, most people want the easy route, and they'll find no shortage of individuals willing to offer them that route, for a quick buck.

Just look at the drugs crisis in sports today and you'll see what I mean.

[quote=christopher leigh;121495]

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Originally Posted by Chugger

Just look at the drugs crisis in sports today and you'll see what I mean.

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er no.. it's only a crisis if you therefore view it as one.. but if you don't use em you therefore don't see it as a crisis..

by the way i can understand where you are coming from but been tectchy in a discussion on ere will only get a slating or 20 back from others..