Brexit

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I'd love to talk more about races I've done as I did in the past. But having only managed two I think this year, and not having run for two weeks now because of my back, I haven't a lot to say on races these days.
Hopefully that will change some time soon.

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I am sorry to hear, I sincerely hope you get back to it soon!

Actually it would be nice if you contributed to some of the other threads, perhaps we can find a more stable footing there, I would love to hear what you have been reading for example?

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Does this come cross less offensive? Just wondering for future reference.

I'm sorry DM, but this is an inaccurate analysis of the situation.

I can't remember a post on my fairly long time on this forum that has seemed to represent as many worst case scenarios as the reality should we leave to WTO terms.

It might be economically more beneficial to have some sort of trade agreement, but that is a matter of opinion.
I can certainly give you some benefits of not having one.

Food shortages within a few hours! Why? We control what comes in. The Government has already issued information to say they will not be holding up goods coming in to the UK.

Borders being closed to hauliers! I haven't heard that one before. I would be grateful for your source please so I can analyse and check it's veracity.

Even a minor disruption will cause chaos? I ship goods to the EU and I can tell you that 24 hour delays are almost a weekly occurrence. I get daily bulletins from the couriers and hauliers I work with. If someone sneezes on the M6 I know about it :p
Weather events, strikes, ferry breakdown, Train stuck in tunnel, immigrants walking through tunnel... I have had the full range this year.

The same applies to pharmaceutical? I would just re-confirm what the UK Government has said on the matter.

No you don't sound over-dramatic, you sound as if you have only been receiving information of the worst negative potential consequences without being made aware of the control measures and policies the UK Government and business are putting in place to avoid the more extreme consequences.

Do you really think a UK Government of any persuasion would see a potential problem and not act to lessen or remove the effect?
They might not be very good at it, but that is a different topic.

In my own mitigation, if you read your own post "we will have a very serious food shortage problem within just a few hours and at most a couple of days, of the borders being closed to hauliers." is offensive to me.
If you genuinely think that, I have tried countless times to explain why this won't happen as have many others on and off the forum.

Had you posted "we may have some disruption to food supply. The Government has advised we shouldn't as they will take measures to smooth the passage across the border, but I have yet to be convinced in their ability to aid the continuity of the supply chain."
Then I probably wouldn't have even replied, as it's somewhere close to the reality.

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Okay, I appreciate what you are doing here!

I also appreciate that you might find the ideas offensive, but that's not me is it?

By all means challenge the things i say in the way you have done here, it's vastly superior to what you wrote before!

I am a reasonable person, you will find I am very open minded and quick to admit my mistakes.

I need to go now, but I hope this is the sign of a much more mutually respectful discussion to come - lets do it!!

Let's go with the majority.
And call it democracy.
Out it is then.
Simples.

Well, at least that brought about discussion. DM I think you unknowingly hit a nerve with WP because of some of his corruscating exchanges earlier on with people like Stolly. I share his frustration with repetition of over dramatic negative fear-spreading propaganda. No more accurate than the crap on the battle bus! Let's try to see beyond all that and continue to exchange views backed up by our own experiences or stand points.

DM, I'm very surprised that you have taken exception to WP's posts. He is one of the most reasonable and intelligent commentators on here along with Noel and Wheeze. As we know Brexit is very divisive and stirs people up a bit so some things can come across as rather strident. But I'd be interested to hear you counter the actual points WP made on the possible effects of leaving without a deal.

Some people have criticised the Brexit thread but I disagree with them. I think it is a good thing that diverse opinions are being shared here in for the most part a civilised manner. I'm on the opposite side of the argument to Noel but I often find the points he raises thoughtful and interesting.

So often people only go to outlets that confirm the view they already hold. For those people who are upset by coming across opinions that differ from their own perhaps they would be better sticking to these echo chambers.

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Well, at least that brought about discussion. DM I think you unknowingly hit a nerve with WP because of some of his corruscating exchanges earlier on with people like Stolly. I share his frustration with repetition of over dramatic negative fear-spreading propaganda. No more accurate than the crap on the battle bus! Let's try to see beyond all that and continue to exchange views backed up by our own experiences or stand points.

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More or less bang on. Hence my post 2060 to suggest if you applied the same points to fell running, there wouldn't be any fell races and having to go over the same ground.

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Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever

DM, I'm very surprised that you have taken exception to WP's posts. He is one of the most reasonable and intelligent commentators on here along with Noel and Wheeze. As we know Brexit is very divisive and stirs people up a bit so some things can come across as rather strident. But I'd be interested to hear you counter the actual points WP made on the possible effects of leaving without a deal.

Some people have criticised the Brexit thread but I disagree with them. I think it is a good thing that diverse opinions are being shared here in for the most part a civilised manner. I'm on the opposite side of the argument to Noel but I often find the points he raises thoughtful and interesting.

So often people only go to outlets that confirm the view they already hold. For those people who are upset by coming across opinions that differ from their own perhaps they would be better sticking to these echo chambers.

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I promise I'm not MR under another identity :D

I think you can all tell he's much more together than me :)

I think the debate has moved on from the details of Brexit to the core of this country's democracy. Much of the blame for the current impasse should be laid at Cameron's door, if only for his poor framing of the referendum. But as Stagger succinctly stated, the result was clear and U.K. democratic principles mean we leave. As far as I know, no-one has legally and successfully challenged the holding of the referendum or the accuracy of the voting. Therefore it stands. In a parliamentary election would the outcome be continually contested until the 'right' result was obtained? I suggest that politicians might be surprised at the number of remain voters, who albeit reluctantly, accept the referendum outcome because of their overriding belief in our democracy, and also want to see it brought to fruition if only for the return of some certainty and stability.
Personally I'm sick and tired of having what can only be predictions about the effects of Brexit/no deal rammed down my throat as unalterable FACTS in a poorly disguised attempt to manipulate opinion. The contempt of politicians for the electorate is becoming all too obvious. Most politicians seem to have forgotten they are elected to serve. They will do anything to grab the keys to No 10 to be in 'power' regardless of how undemocratic their methods. Has Jo Swinson stopped and listened to her own utterings? Here's my prediction - the LibDems (ironic name) will be annihilated at the next General election. Of course just like the Brexit supporters and doom mongers, I could be completely wrong :)

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As far as I know, no-one has legally and successfully challenged the holding of the referendum or the accuracy of the voting.

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.....have a look at how the referendum on abortion played out in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever

DM, I'm very surprised that you have taken exception to WP's posts. He is one of the most reasonable and intelligent commentators on here along with Noel and Wheeze. As we know Brexit is very divisive and stirs people up a bit so some things can come across as rather strident. But I'd be interested to hear you counter the actual points WP made on the possible effects of leaving without a deal.

Some people have criticised the Brexit thread but I disagree with them. I think it is a good thing that diverse opinions are being shared here in for the most part a civilised manner. I'm on the opposite side of the argument to Noel but I often find the points he raises thoughtful and interesting.

So often people only go to outlets that confirm the view they already hold. For those people who are upset by coming across opinions that differ from their own perhaps they would be better sticking to these echo chambers.

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I take it you did't actually read the disgusting things he wrote, he definitely lost his cool and embarrassed himself greatly!

Apart from that, yes, I agree completely and that's all I wanted too and it was going well until he decided to use ridicule to try and bully his way to winning the argument, which of course just made him look desperate and at this point he lost completely. Even if what he said was true, he lost all authenticity by resorting to such a low level. Funnily enough, in an almost perfect facsimile of the repulsive way the so called politicians behave.

More generally I too am not interested in being told FACTS that are simply unknowable outcomes.

I mean who the hell believes the government?

I don't believe a single word from their lying mouths!!

I am willing to listen to an apology, but unfortunately I just found out I lost a big contract and I need to focus on sorting work out and won't be around as much as I have been.

Catch ye later!!

:D

Good luck!!