Love her or hate her: she knew how to negotiate with EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
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Love her or hate her: she knew how to negotiate with EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
and hotpants, smoking in pubs, pickled eggs, Gary Glitter, British Leyland and Red Robbo? I'd forgotten what a fantastic time it was all those years ago!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
Have you heard of sarcascium Oracle?
The referendum was clear what the majority requested but the minority request a another vote.
Wasn’t Sarcascium Oracle one of Breezie’s log-ons from back in the day?
Isn't it a variety of pepper?
Ah back in the good old days of wit, humour, irony, perception, illumination, erudition, knowledge, prescience, education, wisdom,...and modest tautology - just to mention my humble contributions.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
Graham, you appear to have forgotten modesty on your list. In fairness you have described your posts as humble
'I'm an idiot': Conservative MP regrets Brexit referendum
British prime minister Theresa May suffered another defeat in parliament as MPs roundly defeated her Brexit deal. Speaking after the vote, Conservative MP Charles Walker tells Newshour 'I will curse myself for ever thinking that a referendum was a good idea'.
So lets have another
Attachment 8745
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p073bkm5
I wonder what the slimy Leo Varadkar has to say about the proposal to impose no tariff's on Irish goods entering the UK should we leave with no deal?
And I overlooked imperfect as well.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
Would that be the person doing what the UK Goverment should be doing; trying to protect the increasingly fragile peace in N.I?Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
You bought into EU myths. Here a reality check. There were only two outcomes of the EU insult (I will decline to call it a deal, it was never intended as such by them)Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
Either the effective annexation of northern ireland into permanent customs union so no longer under UK control or jurisdiction Inevitably alienating unionists disturbing the peace (are you listening to DUP?) Or the building of a physical border alienating republicans both sides of the border So both the EU decided and forced (not UK forced) alternatives result in trouble and EU are deliberately inciting it.
The simple alternative brexiteers support of an invisible electronic border avoids the grief. No border is perferct. Northern Ireland has very few points of entry, so it would work. But it offends EU intent on humiliation using their offensive red lines. World war II started by eannexation by the third reich, the fourth reich now want to annexe northern ireland.
Sadly varadkar is caught in the EU trap himself and is a useful idiot for them. If we do not allow annexation they will force him into building the wall, or demand he accept checks in the channel and gets fined for failing to do what he is told. Which is why he is fighting us. Varadkar is deeply unpopular at home, and is trying to score points being nasty to brits.
Surely any remainers rose tinted view of brussels is now tarnished by their refusal to negotiate in good faith or even negotiate at all. Which is why none can accept the deal which relies on good faith on their part.
I’m calling Godwin in that 😆
If only it were exaggeration for effect. The similiarites are disturbing. As is EU intended militarization. As is the fact one faction in Austria welcomed the annexation.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
The wanton disregard that EU shows for unionists in their annexation is alarming and far from the previous poster buying the myth of preserving the peace, the deliberate alienation of unionists by the EU is quite the reverse.
Oracle, why would the EU negotiate in good faith or even at all? It is not vaguely in their interests to allow one of the strongest partners to leave. Anyone who thinks there would be an acceptable negotiated position is living in la la land. The only way to negotiate is to leave with no agreement and then thrash out the details afterwards. A leaving party has no negotiating position. A left party has plenty.
Even then, they’ll want to negotiate the best possible deal for themselves. As will everyone else we negotiate a deal with.
Of course. But the difference is that we won't have both hands tied behind our backs.
Of course I am privileged by having been paid in a previous existence to plan and execute industrial relations negotiations where a decimal point or two on a paybill of several £billion could end up as serious money, but the greatest crime of this government was naively thinking that the big hitters of the EU were their friends and would happily reach an amicable agreement etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
I think Margaret Thatcher's advice would have been "Theresa, think of the EU as the NUM and you won't go far wrong".
I entirely agree Wheeze. From the time EU refused to discuss trade, I have been a "no dealer". Please tell that to our boneheaded MPs.
The public will discover the lack of teeth in many EU threats then pragmatism will take over. I also believe the EU as we know it will collapse because of the Euro and mass migration on a timescale of 3-5 years, and then be replaced by something more useful and loose based on trade and areas of common interest ( rather than superstate), in which we should then play a big part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Agreed provided you swap the word Government for "May" who mistakenly wanted to think the best of people, (then was wholly mis-advised by remainer civil servants)Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Davies for example had no such illusions, and I think would have done better.
It is strange that ERG are called "right wing radicals" who seem to be the only ones in parliament following the democratic manifestos, and May's own statements about no deal better than bad deal.
A good negotiator understands how far you can push. There is a difference between hard negotiation and alienating the other party, so offering no reason to accept the deal,just as EU have done. Barnier should resign as a total failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
I have posted on this before but to reprise;Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
1. A good negotiator keeps his agenda (what he really wants and what he will settle for - which are not the same as the public posturing) secret and never reveals it (because there might be a next time).
2. This negotiation is still ongoing and it is only after the dust has settled that the outcome can be evaluated against 2. by the players - who will then put the best "spin" on the outcome for public consumption.
3. There are other aspects such as how much skin you have in the game to concentrate the mind (your own job, money or in some regimes, your life) - but I think Theresa May has already discounted those issues.:)
The ability to walk away is the prime key. Our Mps still fail to grasp it.
It is pointless. Here is Barniers statement: "Why should EU extend Brexit talks , they're complete" He lives in another world.
As a negotiator you may well want to extract 40 bn from the UK , but since there is no legal imperative and the reason many in UK want to leave is partly excessive spending by brussels. As negotiator you cannot start there. All you do is alienate, you first tackle positive reasons to deal then announce the cost. Barnier is incompetent as his deal rejection has proved.
So first the EU needs a negotiator ,who recognises that until the other side agrees all matters are continuing. EU are used to laying the law down and rogue states coming to heel. All adverse votes are told to vote again in the affirmative. We are the first that have not played to the script. They have no idea what to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
It is all explained here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...tJ7jJKr1DrDhz3
Hoping the link works!
Brilliant Moley!!!!:D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Government lose another vote.
Getting closer but so is the 29th👍
30-06-2019
For the UK to leave the EU it had to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which gives the two sides two years to agree the terms of the split. Theresa May triggered this process on 29 March, 2017, meaning the UK is scheduled to leave at 11pm UK time on Friday, 29 March 2019.
You've really cheered me up with that - massive thanks.;););)Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
It doesn't look like that's going to happen though does it? Probably not on the 29th March at least. But then they say deals are always done in the final moments. Nothing would surprise me now: no deal, some deal, don't leave, don't agree but extend the process, agree to partly leave but agree to not agree things until later...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
If I were a betting man, I wouldn't be betting on anything right now.
Like all American attempts at comedy. Not funny!Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
I’d not be averse to a bet on May attempting to force her deal through at the last minute. “My deal or no deal” type scenario.Quote:
If I were a betting man, I wouldn't be betting on anything right now.
Should have some reasonable odds on that.
Edit: not much of a bet now I’ve read the news...
Yes, although I hear she's going to have a third go at it anyway !!Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Interesting move by the chancellor yesterday. To paraphrase: "Teresa, stop trying to win over Tories, start trying to win over Labour".
If you bang your head against a brick wall and it hurts, keep on banging it against the wall until it stops hurting. Simples.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Labour are priceless on the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
They have no objection to the Withdrawal Agreement - the meaty legally binding bit.
They have objections to the Future Declaration trhat has no legal standing and is agreed between people who will probably not be in post later this year.
They say that this declaration is too open, gives too much flexibility.
The point is though, it does leave the door open for what Labour's current policy is (although that might change over the weekend :rolleyes:) and it is also not possible to add any detail according to the EU until we leave.
So it appears to me that they voted down the Withdrawal Agreement for pure political motives. Almost because it was someone else's agreement.
I'm glad they are that stupid as I think the WA is awful.
I agree. Normally this amount of turmoil within a ruling party would mean the opposition would be 15 points ahead in the polls. Whereas actually they're 10 points behind. Not many people singing "Oh Jeremy Corbin" now. Maybe they need to change the emphasis to one of disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
TBH I'm disappointed by both main parties at the moment (more so than usual). What's a suitable analogy? Cats fighting in a bag? It seems clear to me that the left of the right and right of the left could quite easily agree on the principles of a brexit deal, but they still regard each other as the enemy.
What policy? Have labour ever had one? I despair of them all: voting 'never to no deal under any circumstances' is accepting a blank cheque on price. If the price doubles on the day of signing, they will still prefer the deal to no deal. I cannot imagine any of them doing that in their private lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Labour don't have a policy because there is no Labour party at the moment. However, Momentum's goals are very clear - undermine and disrupt, which is why they are unlikely to support any deal or proposal. It is pure party politics that the deal offered by the EU is persistently described as Theresa May's deal; Tories so they can distance themselves from her when they stand in the next leadership contest, Momentum so they can use the vitriolic personality card to turn floating voters to vote for what they believe is Labour, but will turn out to be Momentum. All Corbyn wants is a General Election, so he can be 'IN POWER' and start Project Destroy. Genuine supporters of Labour's true values need to seize back control of their party for all our sakes. The sooner the better.
All true. The craxy think is how bad Tory PR office is. It should never have allowed the phrase "mays deal" - it should have kept repeating the "EU deal" or "EU bad deal" in all statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrump
But I think our own brexit issues may all become academic. I predict the day after the euro elections the money markets will be spooked, italian bond yields will spike , banks will start to collapse because of the stupidest EU rule of all on collateral, a run on the banks will commence in earnest, capital controls will start, Bail ins will steal savings from all and we will see financial market disruption worse than 2008, and considering how little real collateral the dominoes will start to fall. UK banks are certainly not insulated from it. There are anti euro noises in other states like spain and civil unrest will spread. It is already gathering pace in france. Even the US is straining. Recent bond issues have had lower subscription than ever before.
I am aware of quite a few high net worth currently moving money to switzerland. There is already a money flood out of italy. It is not going to be pretty.The cost of insuring banks is already spiking. But just like 2007, the public will be unaware of it till the day it happens.
It is somewhat farcical that the day we brexit (if ever we do) all our banks will need to increase collateral, becuase they will no longer be allowed to use the stupid EU and Eurozone (legally prescribed) assumption that all EU country gilts are safe. Which is why all banks hold them. Ask how that one worked out in greece!
Just leave as the majority voted.