drug taking in sport

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Originally Posted by noel

What's interesting to me about this is not that once again doping is associated with success. The interesting bit is that a culture of bullying seems to work.

Management consultants take note.

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It is debateable if fundamental human behaviours have changed very much over many thousands of years, as distinct from societal mores and pressures, and behaviourists providing intellectual frameworks to illustrate and explain those behaviours.

To take a blatant example; is the British Army so very different from the armies of Napoleon or Nero?

Is the way to motivate track cyclists really a million miles from motivating those who drove chariots round the Coliseum; as distinct from us liking to believe that it is because we are now more "civilised"?

Collusion, "carrot and stick", bullying, fear of reprisal: weren't invented last week; or "cheating" for fame and fortune.

Are we as a country in denial about drugs in sports.

Are we Russia's little brother when it comes to drug taking?

I stand to be corrected Trev; but as I understand it drug taking in the Eastern Block (back in the day) was right across the board - they were posing as amateurs but were in fact state sponsored professionals seeking to uphold nationalistic pride and political ideology, rather than competing for filthy lucre.
In the West most amateurs appear to be happy with good sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct - it's at the professional level when huge amounts of filthy lucre are at stake that people turn 'dirty'.
Keep big money out of sport ..... it just turns it into a business with those on the 'fringe' ( promoters, coaches, managers etc) putting the sportsmen under pressure to win at all costs.

The sad aspect of British professional cycling is that our top echelon are 'working' for Sky - whom I would view as a totally untrustworthy organisation.
It could get even worse if the 'Murky Murdochs' realise their takeover aspirations.

Ian.

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Originally Posted by Stagger

Are we as a country in denial about drugs in sports.

Are we Russia's little brother when it comes to drug taking?

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Are our top amateurs who are seeking to turn pro clean?
Or are we a nation who just like to think everyone is clean?

We appear to be very good at not telling the truth anymore from the political parties, to the law maker's and up holders, through to business and so one.

Is anything true anymore other than a couple of working class blokes in a pub?

With my state of mind and current position in life Ian, other than my 2 sons I find it hard to believe or trust anyone anymore.

From the Guardian:

"The drugs furore surrounding British Cycling and Team Sky has entered new territory with claims that UK anti-doping investigators uncovered evidence that testosterone patches were delivered in 2011 to Dr Richard Freeman, the doctor at the heart of Ukad’s inquiry into allegations of wrongdoing at the two organisations.

Using testosterone is banned at all times under the world anti-doping code. Freeman was contacted by the Guardian but did not comment.

It is understood that the box of testosterone patches was opened by a British Cycling employee who was unaware of its contents. The employee confronted Freeman, who was responsible for ordering medical supplies. The doctor’s explanation, according to a former head of medicine at British Cycling quoted by the Sunday Times – and corroborated to the Guardian by a source close to British Cycling and Sky with knowledge of the story – was that the package had been delivered in error."

Sent in error - that would be an amazing coincidence.

The authorities are closing in on Sky and Mo. Not long now. It's hilarious the Sky put great value in their claimed attention to detail but didn't keep medical records

One of my themes is that "someone always knows the truth" and the concomitant issue of collusion / "keeping one's head down".

Liggett and Sherwen know a thing or two about cycling and if you listen to the live sound track DVD of Armstrong's TdF comeback in 1999 they use "astonishing, unbelievable, incredible, miraculous, amazing".

And fellas, so it was.

But like most people a commentator has to earn a living and so Phil and Paul commented euphorically and enthusiastically about Armstrong's next 6 TdF victories.

Did they really believe in the "miracle" or did they just keep their heads down and put bread on the table and keep quiet along with most of the media world? After all the experience of David Walsh was a salutory example to all.

I am indifferent to Mo Farrah but if he's done wrong there are three truths. First, he is not a reliable witness, secondly someone knows the truth and thirdly, that truth may or may not emerge in time.

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Originally Posted by Stagger

Are our top amateurs who are seeking to turn pro clean?
Or are we a nation who just like to think everyone is clean?

We appear to be very good at not telling the truth anymore from the political parties, to the law maker's and up holders, through to business and so one.

Is anything true anymore other than a couple of working class blokes in a pub?

With my state of mind and current position in life Ian, other than my 2 sons I find it hard to believe or trust anyone anymore.

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It's probably always been that way. Dolos, Machiavelli, Nixon, Blair and Trump etc.
Being a bit naive and wanting to think the best of people, I get caught out all the time.

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Originally Posted by sbrt

It's probably always been that way. Dolos, Machiavelli, Nixon, Blair and Trump etc.
Being a bit naive and wanting to think the best of people, I get caught out all the time.

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That's the way I used to think. I trusted people and had respect for honesty.

Last year changed me massively. I was un loved, cheated on, divorced, mum died, mega depression almost suicide.

Now I try and live for the moment and struggle to trust anyone.

I'm have been super skeptical and don't believe anything think if there is any doubt.

Bradley and Mo in my opinion have both crossed the line and so have a lot more.

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Originally Posted by noel

Yes I wonder if Wiggins has convinced himself he was not actually cheating. I notice Brailsford was very specific to say "we never pressure team members to cheat" rather than "we don't let team members cheat". It's a much more defensible position and implies he knows more than he's letting on.

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I see Froome is reluctant to give a 1000% endorsement to Brailsford unlike all the sycophants in the Sky squad.

Maybe he has a recurring vision:

British TdF Wins

Wiggins - 0

Froome - 4