Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarryQuote:
Yes he is very good at blaming other people.
and the response?
Quote:
it is an EU deal that failed to address any of the concerns of the UK whilst demanding unnaceptable conditions.
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Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarryQuote:
Yes he is very good at blaming other people.
and the response?
Quote:
it is an EU deal that failed to address any of the concerns of the UK whilst demanding unnaceptable conditions.
Now I know you're joking - phew ;) ! Boris is quite evidently an incompetent (see his legacy of massive blunders while at the FO https://theconversation.com/boris-jo...iplomacy-99649 ) pants-on-fire liar and there is the 'on the side of a bus' promise that £350 million a week to the NHS monster fib, he and his Leave mates made to the electorate to prove it. Perhaps worse, is that this guy shows a cavalier indifference to the lives of ordinary people (that is, any one who wasn't educated at Eton or isn't part of his cadre of swanky, overly pampered rich chums). There's an innocent British citizen rotting in an Iranian jail for years, suffering from serious health issues and having been separated from her little girl and husband, whose fate was hugely exacerbated by Boris' incompetence and indolence. This guy would be on par with Failing Grayling, whose botch-ups have cost us taxpayers multiple millions, except that Johnson's serial disasters have been far worse and have seriously f**ked-up people's lives - not that he cares. The guy is a national disgrace and the ugly face of the far-right aristo-elite; those who have an over-blown sense of their own entitlement to rule over us. God help us all if this twat-fest (to paraphrase a borrowed term for describing politicians used elsewhere on this thread) ends up replacing May as leader and... or far worse...gulp...PM!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
Well said Mossdog. I'm hoping for Jacob Rees-Mogg. He'll provide an unelectable balance to Corbyn. Some people have even mentioned Jeremy Hunt!!
Yes, it is a very strange situation when Jeremy Hunt is being seen as the sensible, steady-handed alternative.
Yesterday on Channel 4 News, they had Nicky Morgan, Jess Phillips and Anna Soubry being interviewed together. I reckon a Government of National Unity headed by those three is what we need.
Yesterday on Channel 4 News, they had Nicky Morgan, Jess Phillips and Anna Soubry being interviewed together. I reckon a Government of National Unity headed by those three is what we need.[/QUOTE]
You've got to be joking.
Three of the many "who respect the wish of the British people and the referendum result" and then do everything they can to scupper it. They are a lot closer to Traitor than National Unity.
The sooner we have a General Election in which hopefully many of these shysters will either be de-selected or lose their seats the better
Meanwhile, despite the attempts to ridicule him with the usual memes Boris is a competent leader and manager/ delegator which is why he was the most popular and successful London mayor. He, and I, and many respected economists believe the Brexit bonus is far bigger than that, if only remainers stop trying to keep us shackled to the eu titanic.
Have you ever even studied why Boris wants to leave EU Or spoken to him ? I doubt it : those who accept such media memes as you seem to have done, (and by definition all corbynistas ) rarely study the subjects related.
For example : Boris was rightly concerned about London bike deaths and wanted to limit vehicles entering central London to those with sufficient driver visibility at bike height. He was told that Brussels define the standard for vehicle window height, and he could not restrict it even as a local byelaw , because EU law trumps British or local law. He, and I, believe EU interferes in too many arenas with the foolhardy assumption that one size can ever fit all. That is why he, and I , want to leave EU to escape such ridiculous and unnecessary EU straight jackets.
So Meet the real Boris, a thinking man, this case caring about bike deaths, not the pathetic caricature developed by his opponents that you seem to accept unchallenged.
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Originally Posted by Mossdog
Yes I saw a Meme going around labelled "Atomic Mutton" which raised a little chuckle :)Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Varoufakis is clearly an educated guy. I often find myself agreeing with his analysis, but disagreeing with his solutions though.
But one thing he said last night was bang on.
"let's have a little negotiation between us. First you're going to give me everything I want. Secondly we will discuss that which you want".
The agreement to the sequencing of talks by May was a huge mistake and set the tone for the rest of the negotiation period.
It was suggested on Good Morning Britain today that Macron might block any further extension to Article 50. So with Teresa May's withdrawal agreement set to be defeated again today are we headed for a no-deal exit on April 12th after all?
Didnt watch it, but I agree with your thoughts on YV. He has made these same points many times. David Davis was wholly opposed to accepting the schedule as his body language proved in the joint press statement at the time, and as his post resignation statements confirmed. May overruled him which was her fatal mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
If davis stands, I would vote for him. He also commands respect across the house. He turned round tate and lyle, so unlike most MPs has actually had some life experience. He also walked the BG last summer!
There is light at the end of the tunnel!Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Oh come on, I don’t think Boris needs any help in developing his own pathetic caricature he does that really well himself, the man is clearly a self centred, egotistical, buffoon with more faces than the town hall clock and scarily appears to be proud of the fact, the problem is, when someone like him takes centre stage, then people looking in think ‘if he’s the leader, what is the rest of the team like??’Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
That is hilarious, enjoyed that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
https://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/201...-what-he-said/
You should study the real Boris. Not the memes or media you clearly read. I spent half an hour talking with him a couple of years ago and formed an opinion of the man. I demonstrated with one example the real Boris is a thinking man.
Nor can any accuse him of being two faced. Boris is unusual for a politician because he thinks what he says. And even more unusually he says what he thinks rather than sanitizes it for public consumption: What you see is what you get.
Indeed it is saying what he thinks that gets him into to trouble. And it doesnt change with expedience and weather as it does for the weasel Comrade Corbyn or the shifty Gove.
He proved his leadership credentials as London Mayor, before opponents considered him a threat and so decided to ridicule him, so that such as you would echo such memes.
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Originally Posted by Daletownrunner
I'm surprised that none of the experts on this forum have been co-opted onto the negotiating team.
Or are they subject to the Official Secrets Act, or simply just modest?
We should be wary of responding to the media caricatures of any of these public figures. It's their track record that counts.
Like many, I abhor the media persona that boris has created. But a few years ago I watched a live broadcast of him in council with all the London councillors. Without notes, without briefing, he adroitly and assuredly handled a probing and at times hostile series of questions from the floor. It was quietly impressive. Changed my view of him.
Maybe it’s a pre-requisite not to be anonymous if you’re a negotiator . . .
If you mean EU is worried so is briefing against him , you are correct. The sad thing is those who take the continuous EU negative press agains Britain and its policians seriously. It is a sad reflection on our society that Corbyn proved at the last election people will buy any pack of lies.
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Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
So. I think its boiling down to 3 choices.
1. WA voted through and a soft Brexit on may 22.
2. WA voted down and departure on 12 April with no signed agreement.
3. Government u-turns and decides not to abide by consultative referendum result.
My money is on 3.
Boris is an enigma. He is very unusual in saying what he thinks, and believing what he says, and not trying to manipulate what he says to follow tides of public opinion . Which is how he does well withot briefing. He also has many opponents both sides of the house determined to undermine him. None of them can take away his being the most popular and successful London Mayor precisely because he is a leader and good delegator, who delegated across the political spectrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
What negotiation? The EU never intended a negotiation. This is not Mays deal and she should not take the blame. It is EUs failure of a non deal. They have laid down terms to preserve their autocracy however it harms their nation states expecting Britain to conform because our Mps are so stupid as to say they will not no deal. So being called Britains "negotiator" is at best an honorary title, that nobody could want. Minute taker for EU demands would be more accurate. Particularly when chicken liver MPs will not stand up to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrump
Clearly the majority of us don’t have the opportunity to study our politicians at close range so any opinions that we hold will be based upon their media persona, Boris Johnson clearly comes across as a bumbling idiot, if he is happy to be portrayed in this way then I have no trust in him, the man is clearly not a fool and needs to smarten up his act. For the record I am with you on the pond scum that is Corbyn and Gove, we unfortunately live in a time of no alternatives within politics, perhaps all of our current politicians suffer from being in the public eye at a time when absolutely everything is reported in the mass media.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
Haha to all the Boris Johnston for pm talk. The conservatives urgently need to be looking outwards not in - their own tribe might mostly like Boris (although a few on the left of the party have said they’d leave if he became leader) but any voter at all sitting on the fence in the middle won’t. All the remainers wouldnt go near him with a barge pole. In the mix that’s an awfully big chunk of middle class people, the very sort that have helped the conservatives get into power in the past. From my point of view Boris would be brilliant - the conservatives will be doomed 😊
Boris
Jeremy
Nigel
Indeed. How did someone with so many deplorable character traits get to where he has?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
Maybe it's charisma. You say you've met him? Perhaps it's this that is blinding you to his many flaws. I've heard the same thing said about Jeremy Corbyn.
I think there is a different way flowing out of 2, as I think they WA will go down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
May will have to go, perhaps tonight. A stand in PM will have to ask for a short extension, which the EU might oppose, but I think they will allow an extra month or so.
Tory leadership contest.
General Election.
It could be done by early June.
If it delivers a Tory majority we will probably have a no deal Brexit and then some side deals and further talks.
If it delivers a Labour majority, as things stand we will leave but as part of a Customs Union. I suspect that it might mean we Remain as they will drift to that position if a GE happens.
If it delivers a hung Parliament, we are back to square one of course.
But I think as the last election more or less neutralised Brexit by the Tory and Labour parties standing on the same manifesto, at the next GE there will be clear water between them and it would be much more a Brexit General Election.
I hope he’s not his barber :DQuote:
Originally Posted by noel
The EU is and has always been hostile. The terms of 3 would be punitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Since parliament does not vote yes to anything, 2 is a distinct possibility by default. That is also what was mandated by election. The house will still be voting not to no deal long after the only deal has expired.
Perhaps it is because I judge on the man and his provable leadership ability, not how his opponents misreprent him.
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Originally Posted by noel
I do not see why May should Go: it isnt her deal, it is the EUs nonsense and she is not obliged to stand down under party rules. Her offer was conditional on the deal accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
In any confidence vote I expect the indy group to support her: It is far too early for them to hope they can get reelected at a GE. They will want to bide their time. Since Corbyn is a republican terrorist loving thug, no way will DUP ever vote with him, indeed will vote with May. A general election solves nothing for brexit except in labour office wishful thinking. I can imagine the jewish community will also have their say against corbyn.
You cannot seriously hope a terrorist loving marxist thug intent on total financial destruction gets into power?
I hope the electorate are not so stupid: But just in case I have overestimated their intellect, I like many companies have taken precautions by taking most assets offshore. By the time Mcdonnel says capital controls there will be little left to seize except the savings of pensioners. These marxist idiots always forget that the wealthy are mobile. Ask Hollande who was the last one to be quite that stupid. He ended up reversing his tax increases. Like Callaghan Corbyn would end up cap in hand to the IMF when he runs out of other peoples money. Then there would be real austerity. The inevitable result of authoritarian socialism, just like Venezuela.
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Originally Posted by Stolly
Are you doing any running at all this weekend Oracle??Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
Struggling with injury on that front at present. It is why I waste time here. Wouldnt see me for dust if I could spend days on the fells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daletownrunner
Nobody picked up on why I thought Davis should be leader. He walked the BG last summer. That must get the fellrunner vote!
;) No worries, I spent a good 10 minutes watching lambs racing each other across the fields on my run last night, takes your mind right off this Brexit lark, hope that injury sorts itself :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
It has been under May's direction we started on the wrong track and carried on being on the wrong track from the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
The only thing she got right was delaying article 50 for 9 months.
The sequencing was wrong. Even today in the debate that has been brought up.
The December protocol, which she signed off at the end of 2017 so she could claim progress.
The White Paper at Chequers.
The "I'm not going to hold a General Election" then to call one, with a manifesto put together by her and her team, without cabinet involvement.
She turned a 10% poll lead, replicated in the May local elections (11%) in to a meagre 2% and a loss of 13 seats, loss of a Commons majority in just a month.
The worst General Election campaign I can recall.
She has been a disaster in more than one way.
This is not now a Commons issue. It is a Tory party issue. She will be obliged to go as party leader. She has promised to go if the WA agreement passes.
It won't.
But how ludicrous would it be to stay on if it fails?
So a general election could be a strong probability now but some interesting poll predictions if that were to happen from Curtice:
Conservatives 307 seats
Labour 256
SNP/PC 48
Lib Dem 20
Green 1
DUP 10
Independent 1
Sinn Fein 7
Coalition government and conservatives out 🤔
Edit: obviously this excludes the new TIG aka Change U.K. but I doubt they will necessarily do the conservatives any favours in the round
Or referendum version 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Or revoke article 50 completely?
Or do what was actually mandated in a referendum and a pledge in a general election winning manifesto. Leave. No deal better than bad deal. The one thing they have not tried, is the thing the electorate asked them to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
A general election is nothing but opportunism. Corbyns strategy got voted down just as heavily as an indicative vote. He has nothing to offer.
I will agree on only one thing. Revoking A50 and keeping the Veto is far better than other worse forms of remain like "norway" or "customs union" . None of them including corbyns non strategy is brexit. But having repealed it then we should be as awkard as possible voting down all budgets until EU negotiate which they have not done until now.
There are a lot of variables to come in to play before this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
If the Tories went now with May, this might be correct, although I suspect the LibDems are a little over-aged.
But I don't think the Tories will go with May. I will be quite surprised if she doesn't announce her departure, staying on until the new leader is in place.
Johnson as leader would in my opinion add 30-50 seats to the above.
Faced with a clean Brexit Tory party, where do Labour go? I think they would implode in many of the Northern towns.
All guesswork I accept that Stolly, but that's how I read it.
A leadership contest could be done in 2-3 weeks.
A General Election by early June.
Ask EU for extension until late June.
That’s really interesting as I’d put Johnson down as a guaranteed vote loser. A new Farage party could also jump into the mix and plunder votes from the tories (and labour) - they wouldn’t neccessarily win any seats but just upset the vote balance