Are Park Runs Destructive ?

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Originally Posted by The General

This is correct Witton - parkrun gets its insurance cover for free whilst we the clubs have to chip up. Also Local Government is putting up the costs and reducing the assistance it offers to us the affiliated clubs (who in many cases develop youth athletics) whilst giving subsidies to Park Run. It's not a level playing field and to be honest it's p*ssing me off :angry:

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General - from what I can make of it, it seems that Local Councils are under pressure to show that they are promoting healthy lifestyles (there is funding involved.) Parkrun would argue that they are helping them do that, that's why they get funded.

The issue for me (and by the way, i love parkrun) is that my own club Rochdale Harriers (on every Tuesday and Thursday night) arrange training for more athletes across a much wider age range than any of the individual Greater Manchester Park Runs and unlike parkrun our members get structured training and specialist coaching. Parkrun however is free because it is subsidised by the council yet our members have to pay subs to cover the costs that the Council ask from us. How can that be fair and equitable? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry

Look at the results (and the depth of the field) from 1993 there are a few forumites amongst the 270 runners too :thumbup:

http://www.ukresults.net/1993/sal5k.html

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This weekend's Bramhall Park Run was won in a time of 18:06. From those 1993 results that would have earned 119th place out of 270 runners! If it's attracting runners away from the big 5Ks then it's not the fast ones.

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Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry

This morning there were 85 runners in Salford Harriers 'traditional' 5K in Heaton Park


Yesterday Parkrun had the following attendances in Greater Manchester

Bolton Leverhulme - 107 runners
Stockport Bramhall - 367 runners
Manchester Heaton Park - 260 runners
Oldham Alexandra Park - 65 runners
Leigh Pennington Flash - 41 runners
Manchester Platt Fields - 210 runners
Stockport Woodbank Park - 75 runners

Sale Water Park parkrun starts soon too.


Parkruns destructive, pernicious, harmful and damaging to our club events or a welcome addition to the calendar? :confused:

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I'm not sure why Parkrun 5K on the Saturday should affect the numbers at a 5K the following day.

Only done a couple of Parkruns because there are not any in North Lancs but if there were i would be a regular. I dont see what the problem is really, the majority of club organised road races seem to be on a Sunday anyway

Danbert - it can be argued that the Clubs do get Council funding anyway. The tracks lose money so we would be on dodgy ground to complain about the Council supporting Park Run.
That is not my beef.

My beef is that UKA/EA are the umbrella organisations for athletics. They take money from Clubs in affiliation fees and permitting and then are using some of that money to give cover to Park Run.

Joe and Richard Head:
Similar to my above point, I do not have an issue with Park Run - but I have made the point before that they have to be affecting numbers. I had this debate on here last year and also on 8lane.
There were runners I know going down to Heaton Park last year that would normally have been running the local XC race or road race previously. Due to Park Run they were at races less.
Danbert is perhaps a very good example of this.

Now that would be all fine and dandy if Park Run was standing on it's own 2 feet ie. not receiving financial support from the clubs by the back door.

The claim is made that it is bringing new people to athletics, that it is good for the sport. I would perhaps be able to accept that if Park Run had a policy of leafleting all the runners with details of all the local clubs within a 10 mile radius (for example)

Unfortunately the UKA/EA are in the pockets of the big sponsors, the NGO Funders and the large organisations such as FLM / Great Run.

What next - will they be assisting the Ramblers Association because it might attract people in to race walking :/

Just have a look at the results for the Chorley and Horwich Wednesday night races and you will see the numbers are down quite significantly, with them struggling to get to a 100 runners now.
www.race-results.co.uk

These races would have been often over 200 when I started in 2004 / 5 and some of the old timers at our club talk of 300+ in the old days and times of 21 mins for 4 miles only just getting in the top 50!

Clearly there's more issues than just Park Run - but I do think the expanse and regularity of the Park Run events has got to impact on race attendance, particularly the short distance ones such as these.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Just have a look at the results for the Chorley and Horwich Wednesday night races and you will see the numbers are down quite significantly, with them struggling to get to a 100 runners now.
www.race-results.co.uk

These races would have been often over 200 when I started in 2004 / 5 and some of the old timers at our club talk of 300+ in the old days and times of 21 mins for 4 miles only just getting in the top 50!

Clearly there's more issues than just Park Run - but I do think the expanse and regularity of the Park Run events has got to impact on race attendance, particularly the short distance ones such as these.

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I did 21.53 for Chorley 4ml back in '91 ,got me 74th place.........back then a big gang of us made the trip over.Now youd be lucky to see anyone from my club there but it aint because of Parkruns,they just don't seem interested.
To be blunt in the 80s and 90s the standard of running was a lot stronger at the top end,some of the guys who were down in the 20s in the results back then would have been winning today.

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Originally Posted by john doe

I did 21.53 for Chorley 4ml back in '91 ,got me 74th place.........back then a big gang of us made the trip over.Now youd be lucky to see anyone from my club there but it aint because of Parkruns,they just don't seem interested.
To be blunt in the 80s and 90s the standard of running was a lot stronger at the top end,some of the guys who were down in the 20s in the results back then would have been winning today.

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I completely agree with everythig you say there john doe.

Witton I also find it interesting when looking at 'current' race results how the numbers are massively proped up by the large number of
veterans of all categories. These athletes more often than not finish very high up in the field too. The question is - is this an indicator of the poor standards of races overall or is it an indicator of how our generation were imbued with a different attitude towards running and training
hard? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry

I completely agree with everythig you say there john doe.

Witton I also find it interesting when looking at 'current' race results how the numbers are massively proped up by the large number of
veterans of all categories. These athletes more often than not finish very high up in the field too. The question is - is this an indicator of the poor standards of races overall or is it an indicator of how our generation were imbued with a different attitude towards running and training
hard? :confused:

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Certainly a different attitude to racing. I feel like a freak encouraging the kids I coach to have a go at something different, get some variety and avoid getting stale. So where I try and direct juniors to have a go at the odd 5K - 10K road / trail race and dabble with the junior fell, you look at the rest and they're down at Trafford for the track time trials over 800 - 3000m chasing rankings & PBs.

I've made the point on 8lane in a discussion about the dearth of marathon talent these days, that the ranking for 10K and upwards are almost devoid of U23s.
http://www.thepowerof10.info/ranking...ex=M&year=2010
The 10K road rankings from last year have the first VET well above the first U23.

Go to the HM and it's far worse
http://www.thepowerof10.info/ranking...ex=M&year=2010
9 Vets to 3 U23s in the top 50.

The women fare better and perhaps that's why they tend to be more competitive on the international scene at the moment - U20s are even figuring in the 10K rankings and the U23W are almost double the guys in the the HM rankings for 2010.

Are the guys going soft?

I know that my club captain was looking back at previous results from years back and most of our top runners nowadays wouldn't even have made the top twenty back then. Apparently we had several 2:30 marathoners and these days most of the top lads are trying to get sub 3, never mind 2:30

why pay an extortionate fee to run an organised road race when you can have a jolly good run around the local park for free with like minded people though?

you surely cannot have it both ways-either you want people to enjoy running and get fit for the goodness of their health or you want to put your own event above that.

a friend of mine was heavily overweight and started doing park runs and has lost 4 stone. she's never going to want to run 10km races but is happy to do park runs. where's the harm? why should she feel bad about it?

im glad to be out on the hills away from the Nova internationals charging rip off fees for road races who fill their events by bringing charities on board? a minister once told me that you shouldnt pay for anything in this day and age. he obviously didnt mean it literally but his words were echoed by a south african visitor who said "there is no limit to the good we can do if we dont mind who gets the credit". we should be doing things for the good of people and for the love of doing it in the first place not out of obligation or due to tradition

im so glad to be out of the rat race.

kk

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Originally Posted by Keswick_Krumble

why pay an extortionate fee to run an organised road race when you can have a jolly good run around the local park for free with like minded people though?

you surely cannot have it both ways-either you want people to enjoy running and get fit for the goodness of their health or you want to put your own event above that.

a friend of mine was heavily overweight and started doing park runs and has lost 4 stone. she's never going to want to run 10km races but is happy to do park runs. where's the harm? why should she feel bad about it?

im glad to be out on the hills away from the Nova internationals charging rip off fees for road races who fill their events by bringing charities on board? a minister once told me that you shouldnt pay for anything in this day and age. he obviously didnt mean it literally but his words were echoed by a south african visitor who said "there is no limit to the good we can do if we dont mind who gets the credit". we should be doing things for the good of people and for the love of doing it in the first place not out of obligation or due to tradition

im so glad to be out of the rat race.

kk

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Nova / Park Run - there is a linkage there. They are usually the same type of runner. Look at a typical Nova event or the FLM and the presence of club runners makes almost no difference to them, it is just a token presence to legitimise a mass jog as being part of the sport.

The points you raise are fine - why not run for free if you can?

However, if you are a club member, often your club races bring in much needed funds that goes back in to the sport. Supporting coach and athlete development. Yet your race is "taxed" by the NGO by requiring it to be permitted. Some of the proceeds therefore go to the NGO.

In order to avoid this, ARC has been set up mainly for clubs specifically involved in road running and offered a cheaper system of insuring your races.

Our NGO then puts pressure on clubs not to use ARC by advising that all those races will be blocked from the rankings.

Park Run receives free insurance from our NGO and so the club races are actually paying for these Park Runs to be set up.

It isn't right.

As soon as you mentioned acronymns you lost me both literally and emotionally. i hope that doesnt sound rude as it wasnt meant to. i dont understand what they are and their very presence hints at wasteful and pointless bureaucracy

KK

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Originally Posted by Keswick_Krumble

As soon as you mentioned acronymns you lost me both literally and emotionally. i hope that doesnt sound rude as it wasnt meant to. i dont understand what they are and their very presence hints at wasteful and pointless bureaucracy

KK

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Sorry

FLM - Flora London Marathon
NGO - In this case UK Athletics and England Athletics
ARC - http://www.runningclubs.org.uk/ -is a breakaway organisation. I think they were set up as they felt that money from road running through the UKA Permit system was being taken out of road running and channeled in to other areas of athletics. It was to provide pow cost membership and insurance for any road clubs that wanted to join.

NGO sounds a bit like a middle eastern dictator

I see the latest Greater Manchester parkrun got under way this morning in Wythenshawe Park and that it was run entirely on grass. It will make for ideal cross country training. ;)

Don't u mean it will b a fantastic REPLACEMENT for xc racing!KK

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Originally Posted by Richard Head

Only done a couple of Parkruns because there are not any in North Lancs but if there were i would be a regular. I dont see what the problem is really, the majority of club organised road races seem to be on a Sunday anyway

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One of the more recent parkrun newsletter mentions "Meeting at the Manchester City sports grounds, we presented to a balanced room of parkrun volunteers coming from Bramhall, Bolton, Heaton, Oldham, Pennington Flash, Princes Park, South Manchester, Woodbank, Wythenshaw, Trafford Water Park and Preston including some visitors from Run England and the Manchester City Council."


The interesting bits being the references to Preston & Trafford (Sale) Water Park - sounds like plans for those 2 are reasonably well progressed.

Did anyone do the Heaton Park Parkrun this morning?

I was just wondering if the new course is considered to be be faster or slower !!!

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Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry

Did anyone do the Heaton Park Parkrun this morning?

I was just wondering if the new course is considered to be be faster or slower !!!

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Hi Danbert. My time was spot on the 'norm' for 2011 (1 minute down on autumn 2010 Heaton PB). My thoughts and consensus from asking around afterwards was that the times / effort was similar. To be honest the route has not changed that much, just the order and direction in which its run. Difficult to explain on here without rambling on, but you will see when you next do it. It's been moved to start at the Hall (the old half way mark) as we have 'grown too big for the dog walkers and the cafe' (good ridance - at least we hae open toilets at 8:50 near the Hall!), but essentially it still includes the small lap, the bit round the lake and the two hills (down and up) just in a different order. Start of up hill is now at 3.5k mark rather than 2k mark Cheers. (end of semi-ramble)
PS. Oh, and I picked up my 50 Tee too and ran in it (didn't speed me up nor hinder either) - missed being awarded it by Ron Hill MBE last week, shame.
PPS. Parkrun (09-10) actually got my lard off and gave me renewed confidence to join a club, and a Fell Club at that (GDH)! Will be at F.Grouse Tomorrow. QED.

The only 'quirk' (mere observation) was that we had the Salford Harriers elite doing speed laps of the top circuit round the hall in the opposite direction as we were completing the last 1km of the Parkrun. As long as they dont mind 200 runners (oops joggers!) plodding towards them as they steam in the other direction I dont suppose it matters, but statistically there will probably be a collision if this becaomes the 'norm'. Hopefully a one-off / rarity. Parkrun is always between 9 and 9.45, maybe SH could do the laps outside of this window? Not sure if Parkrun Director has liasied with Salford Harriers coach on this one.
RoadRunner (you were there - we exchanged waves) or other SH elite - any feedback from SH point of view?

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Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry

Did anyone do the Heaton Park Parkrun this morning? I was just wondering if the new course is considered to be be faster or slower !!!

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Personally I didn't like big hill at the end :angry: or maybe I just set off too fast with the downhill start? But was good to have the toilets handy :thumbup: Martin was 2 seconds quicker than two weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by Martins Mrs

Personally I didn't like big hill at the end :angry: or maybe I just set off too fast with the downhill start? But was good to have the toilets handy :thumbup: Martin was 2 seconds quicker than two weeks ago.

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MM, I know what you mean, but I always save a bit for that 'hill' (hump), it just meant bottling up the reserve for an extra 5+ minutes. If Martin and I were bth within seconds of our last times then it supports the general consensus (from my post race chat) that its much the same - just takes getting used to. At least the hill is not the last 250m - that would be cruel. I did Bradford a month ago and the 3 x little hill (think Woodbank x2) and the last mini-hill-sting-in-tail into the funnel, nearly qualified it for a fell run (tarmac paths aside)!

I've only done 3 parkruns including today and they are all within 2 seconds. Today, I've done the exact same time I did 27 Nov 2010 ! How weird it that?

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Originally Posted by Martins Mrs

I've only done 3 parkruns including today and they are all within 2 seconds. Today, I've done the exact same time I did 27 Nov 2010 ! How weird it that?

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Results out. Well run both. How about roping onto CLH next time?!
Weirder still - you and I did near identical performance at 65.9x?!;)

Staying with a friend in London and took part in my first ever park run. Bushy park a lovely park to run round, really enjoyed it what a blast! Really impressed how they just take place with minimal organisation. How can they be destructive 726 people turn up and enjoyed themselves!

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Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry

Did anyone do the Heaton Park Parkrun this morning?

I was just wondering if the new course is considered to be be faster or slower !!!

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Same time time as usual..........first turn round the Halls a bit sharp though.

Seems like most of you enjoyed it then.

John Doe - Is the loop around the back of the hall at the start........ before you head down the hill?

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Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry

Seems like most of you enjoyed it then.

John Doe - Is the loop around the back of the hall at the start........ before you head down the hill?

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Thats it,you need to keep your elbows out to get round.

I found it much slower than the old course

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Originally Posted by Sparth Bottoms

I found it much slower than the old course

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Alright Sparth?


Just found out there is meant to be a parkrun starting soon at Worsley Woods up in Salford - we really are getting spoilt for choice around Greater Manchester now

PS - Sale Water Park parkrun and Congleton Parkrun still being discussed too.

Brabyns Park, Marple to start soon

I think these are great. I'm just getting back to fitness and do the Platt Fields one every 2 or 3 weeks to gauge my improvement.

They're free and early, leaving the rest of the weekend free.

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Originally Posted by TheHeathens

I think these are great. I'm just getting back to fitness and do the Platt Fields one every 2 or 3 weeks to gauge my improvement.

They're free and early, leaving the rest of the weekend free.

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I'm going to head down to Platt Fields in a couple of weeks is it a fast course?

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

I'm going to head down to Platt Fields in a couple of weeks is it a fast course?

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No, it made me at least 5 minutes slower than I should be running.....in my head at least!

Yes, it's a fast course - flat as a pancake

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Originally Posted by TheHeathens

No, it made me at least 5 minutes slower than I should be running.....in my head at least!

Yes, it's a fast course - flat as a pancake

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Cheers I thought it would be flat, I was just worried there might be a few twists, turns and narrow paths once you go round the lake.

God knows what time I'll do I've never ran a 5k before...

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

Cheers I thought it would be flat, I was just worried there might be a few twists, turns and narrow paths once you go round the lake.

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There are a lot of sharp turns which makes it not that fast.

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Originally Posted by Swoop

There are a lot of sharp turns which makes it not that fast.

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They're not that bad though Colin. I think it's easily a course you could run a PB on when compared to Heaton Park, for instance.

The big problem is if it's been raining / is icy. I raced a couple of months ago and it was -2 when the race started having had a weeks worth of rain - it was more like a cross-country course.

Bloody great turn out for Duncan M and his team at the first Worsley Woods parkrun this weekend
http://www.parkrun.org.uk/worsleywoo.../latestresults

First park run for me at Platt Fields this morning. I must say I enjoyed it! I was a bit slower than I would've liked, hardly surprising condsidering I ran the HPM last weekend and had a two hour run over Kinder on Thursday, but I definitely had a good tempo run.

It was nice to see people clapping in the slower runners at the end. People moan about the fun running culture in his country, but at a time when most people sit on their arses eating crisps and drinking pop, park runs are a good thing!

All in all a nice morning - good to see OB1 there too!