To drink or not to drink

My dog stops at every single puddle for a drink. Should I try to explain to her just how unnecessary this is or do different rules apply!?

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Originally Posted by Nowton Park Harrier

My dog stops at every single puddle for a drink. Should I try to explain to her just how unnecessary this is or do different rules apply!?

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no but if you're going to judge what is a good way of going about things by a dog's instincts, then you'd end up defecating on pavements and masturbating against people's legs

Dogs do not sweat but lose most of their heat by breathing - this pre-disposes them to a dry mouth which it is natural for them to try and alleviate/prevent. Also, as they were evolving, they did not know how long they would be out for, nor when the next water stop would be, so it made sense to top up at every opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Also, as they were evolving, they did not know how long they would be out for, nor when the next water stop would be, so it made sense to top up at every opportunity.

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Not wanting to be pedantic but isn't that true of every species? It's also like saying if you didn't know what the weather was going to be like so wore a jacket all the time your species would eventually evolve a thick coat.

Dog's evolution has been fast-tracked by their association with man over the last x-thousand years, and to be selected, both by nature and by us, they needed to obey and to survive. So they needed to be able to keep going when it was asked of them, by keeping topped up - otherwise they would have been the next meal, thus removing their DNA from the gene pool. I doubt if wolves top up like domestic dogs - correct me if I am wrong. Of course we usually know how long we will be out for, and can plan accordingly. Military scenarios, where we know we don't know how long we will be out, are different, and the keeping topped up strategy applies there as well.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

So they needed to be able to keep going when it was asked of them, by keeping topped up

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That's not really evolution. But surely the same applies to dogs as it does to us, using energy would liberate water and thus they wouldn't need to keep topping up. Presumably they do it for comfort, same as us really.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Of course we usually know how long we will be out for, and can plan accordingly. Military scenarios, where we know we don't know how long we will be out, are different, and the keeping topped up strategy applies there as well.

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That's not really evolution either. Evolution is not a conscious process and isn't really affected by choices such as that, evolution would come into play if our ancestors regularly needed water but weren't able to top up, and thus the ones who were able to survive better with less water would be the ones to carry the genes on.

I certainly think our in built camelbak - our glycogen stores - developed because of evolutionary pressures - it seems such a good "design". The point I am trying to make about domestic dogs is that they had less choice about how far/fast they went than their wild counterparts, so different evolutionary pressures would apply - those that did not top up would be less likely to survive, so topping up became the norm. I imagine, but do not actually know, that they have similar glycogen stores to us, and that they lose heat by loss of respiratory water, which results in heat loss just like evaporation.

This New York Times article puts the water drinking 'debate' well and truly to bed I think.

And blow me down, it draws the conclusion that you should drink if you're thirsty but not if you're not :)

I sure enjoyed my few sips of water halfway round the 10 miler today! :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess

I sure enjoyed my few sips of water halfway round the 10 miler today! :thumbup:

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Me too MG! Which 10-miler were you doing today?
Okay just read the other thread so I already know the answer.

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Originally Posted by Stolly

This New York Times article puts the water drinking 'debate' well and truly to bed I think.

And blow me down, it draws the conclusion that you should drink if you're thirsty but not if you're not :)

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I've been doing that since I was born and it's worked ok so far :D

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Originally Posted by Stolly

This New York Times article puts the water drinking 'debate' well and truly to bed I think.

And blow me down, it draws the conclusion that you should drink if you're thirsty but not if you're not :)

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Unfortunately the article contains several inaccuracies, the most important being: "If you've lost weight, you need to start drinking a little more every hour," - as followers of this thread will have spotted.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Unfortunately the article contains several inaccuracies, the most important being: "If you've lost weight, you need to start drinking a little more every hour," - as followers of this thread will have spotted.

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Is your other name Christopher Leigh? :wink:

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Originally Posted by Stolly

This New York Times article puts the water drinking 'debate' well and truly to bed I think.

And blow me down, it draws the conclusion that you should drink if you're thirsty but not if you're not :)

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I have read that thirst is not a good guide to hydration needs, especially as we get old, and this chimes with my experiences. I well remember when I was trying my best in LDWA events I would not be aware of being at all thirsty during the last miles but the moment I finished I was desperately thirsty and all I wanted was to down glass after glass after glass of squash (not something I would usually like). I remember kind LDWA volunteers offering me food, and my feeling amazed that they might suppose I could eat, when all I wanted was to drink. Similarly, years ago when video cameras were fairly new, especially to me, I had the good fortune at work to be given the use of an editing suite for a day. I was so fascinated by what I was doing, I never stirred from that room all day, and my normal meal and drink times passed unremembered. I think it is easy for runners in the stress of competition to fail to notice that they need to drink, just as it is easy for someone at home and bored to feel they need a cup of tea every 5 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Alexandra

I have read that thirst is not a good guide to hydration needs, especially as we get old, and this chimes with my experiences. I well remember when I was trying my best in LDWA events I would not be aware of being at all thirsty during the last miles but the moment I finished I was desperately thirsty and all I wanted was to down glass after glass after glass of squash (not something I would usually like). I remember kind LDWA volunteers offering me food, and my feeling amazed that they might suppose I could eat, when all I wanted was to drink. Similarly, years ago when video cameras were fairly new, especially to me, I had the good fortune at work to be given the use of an editing suite for a day. I was so fascinated by what I was doing, I never stirred from that room all day, and my normal meal and drink times passed unremembered. I think it is easy for runners in the stress of competition to fail to notice that they need to drink, just as it is easy for someone at home and bored to feel they need a cup of tea every 5 minutes.

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Amongst old folk admitted to hospital there are as many with hyponatremia - water overload - as there are with dehydration. This is partly due to the "whatever you do keep drinking" philosophy.

Every now and then we have a thread on here that inspires debate, that challenges our thinking, makes us really question what we believe. This isn't one of them

Some folk drink more water than others. Carrying a bottle or not will make bugger all difference to many runners performance either way. You can get very ill if you don't drink enough fluid and similarly if you drink too much. imho too little is far more common than too much, in most everyday situations :closed:

Agreed DT, can we put this to bed now?

Some drink lots, some don't drink at all, and some haven't yet worked out what's best for them. Long scheme of things it's fairly irrelevant unless you personally have an issue with hydration, in which case there's lots of research out there for everybody to make there own informed decision.

You can lead a horse to water .....

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Originally Posted by Mike T

You can lead a horse to water .....

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Mike just shut the fluck up about it now. The advice about runners being prone to drinking too much is largely relevant to fun runners and joggers who have a bash at a marathon or half marathon for the first time. Fell running is a completely different ball game - few fun runners and joggers run in the hills for a start and when the do they rarely race and if they race they very rarely enter tough long races, largely because they need experience to get accepted. Everybody else knows what water they need and feel quite happy carrying water with them in any event, regardless of whether they drink it or not.

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

Every now and then we have a thread on here that inspires debate, that challenges our thinking, makes us really question what we believe. This isn't one of them
:closed:

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:D Like it!!

Like Stolly says. Enough now Mike....please!!!

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Originally Posted by Mike T

You can lead a horse to water .....

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But you can't make him not drink? :)

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Amongst old folk admitted to hospital there are as many with hyponatremia - water overload - as there are with dehydration. This is partly due to the "whatever you do keep drinking" philosophy.

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I would say it's more likely due to the "let's have a nice cup of tea" philosophy. Most old people (older than me, that is) that I talk to are not letting fear of either dehydration or hyponatremia affect their behaviour or indeed dwell in their thoughts at all. They sometimes hold back from drinking in order to avoid trips to the loo or, like younger people, they sometimes drink pints and pints because they enjoy it or it is a social custom or they want to cheer themselves up.

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Mike just shut the fluck up about it now. The advice about runners being prone to drinking too much is largely relevant to fun runners and joggers who have a bash at a marathon or half marathon for the first time. Fell running is a completely different ball game - few fun runners and joggers run in the hills for a start and when the do they rarely race and if they race they very rarely enter tough long races, largely because they need experience to get accepted. Everybody else knows what water they need and feel quite happy carrying water with them in any event, regardless of whether they drink it or not.

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I agree with most of this, although I realise, Stolly, you would prefer that I not prolong the discussion by saying so. HOWEVER "just shut the fluck up" is surely not by anyone's standards reasoned argument and I don't think it has a place in these Forums. AND you risk a visit from Spelling Bee.

If you feel the debate has run it's course, stop reading it! If you have nothing to add stop commenting! I'm still fascinated by it and learning from it.

Those must have been the runners setting of to do Hardmoors 50 a couple of weekends ago carrying 3 lites of water each

I do need a cup of tea every five minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5DIu...eature=related

me too..its a very important part of my daily procrastination.

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Originally Posted by Grouse

I do need a cup of tea every five minutes.

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Seriously though, always enjoy a brew, be it tea, coffee, a wee whiskey 2 thirds through the Howarth Hobble or a Guinness 2 thirds through a 20m recce of the Old Counties Tops, as my good mate Crumblydown would say, 'It'd be rude not too'
Never had cramp since i discovered Nuun's either, and boy have i had cramp in the past!

A wee?

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Originally Posted by Grouse

A wee?

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A small drink or what comes after a large drink.

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Mike just shut the fluck up about it now. The advice about runners being prone to drinking too much is largely relevant to fun runners and joggers who have a bash at a marathon or half marathon for the first time. Fell running is a completely different ball game - few fun runners and joggers run in the hills for a start and when the do they rarely race and if they race they very rarely enter tough long races, largely because they need experience to get accepted. Everybody else knows what water they need and feel quite happy carrying water with them in any event, regardless of whether they drink it or not.

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Leave it out Stolly. Some do and some don't could be applied to every single debate on these forums; it does not mean that we can not debate these subjects without resorting to nasty gestures. Everyone on here knows your stance on matters and it simply adds nothing. Go recce some course that you will never race and leave this thread.

It's not really a debate though is it. It's just Mike telling us we're all wrong. And that if we carry any water on a race or ever have a pee during a race (even if it is a 25 mile race) we are over hydrating. Also that we are at risk of hyponatremia by drinking during a race - even though most of us drinking on longer races wouldn't be drinking excessively and would be eating too (ie, taking on salts). Not really a sensible debate is it.

I'd say this thread has been prolonged more by people carping at MikeT, doling out their homespun wisdom and trying to back up their opinions by quoting inane TV adverts, than it has by Mike himself.

Now I'm prolonging it. Never mind, eh.

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Originally Posted by Flopsy

It's not really a debate though is it. It's just Mike telling us we're all wrong. And that if we carry any water on a race or ever have a pee during a race (even if it is a 25 mile race) we are over hydrating. Also that we are at risk of hyponatremia by drinking during a race - even though most of us drinking on longer races wouldn't be drinking excessively and would be eating too (ie, taking on salts). Not really a sensible debate is it.

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Two sides to a subject area we are all interested in,hum, i would say that was a debate.
Mike has a point. Most people have been fed incorrect advice on hydration for years/decades. We had all been told for a very long time that if you wait till you are thirsty then it is too late, you are too dehydrated. I always thought this was strange as, how would could such an essential biological indicator that has developed though evolution be wrong or too late. Well recently Tim Noakes has proven that this indicator is infact spot on. Based on this research, up to a point Mike is correct. Discuss

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Originally Posted by Roy Scott

Based on this research, up to a point Mike is correct. Discuss

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Not really as he is suggesting not to drink during races, plenty of people feel thirsty and have a sip of water during races

Anyone else need the loo?:o

I'm one of the 'carry it with me and drink when thirsty' crowd when it comes to the hills. On the road...meh. Depends how I'm feeling, but never on routes less than 10mi unless it's very hot. Not bothered about being encumbered by extra weight, because guess what? It adds to the training experience by increasing your effort (though in reality, a small bottle of water weighs less than 1kg so not really that much more effort).

In Mike's defence though, I don't think he's once preached to us to change our habits: many times he's said it works for him, knows it won't work for everyone, and is more interested in getting people thinking about whether they overdo it. He's also acknowledged that runs in the hills, especially long ones are different; so the people arguing with him, telling him that long runs in the hills are different, are wasting the print on their keyboard keys. They then moan about Mike prolonging the argument...

In summary, interesting debate, if you disagree to the point of getting angry, look away now.

x ;)

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Originally Posted by Rob Furness

Not really as he is suggesting not to drink during races, plenty of people feel thirsty and have a sip of water during races

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Based on this research, up to a point Mike is correct. Discuss

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Originally Posted by Roy Scott

Based on this research, up to a point Mike is correct. Discuss

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Which research Roy? Have you missed a link off your post?

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Originally Posted by southernsoftie

so the people arguing with him, telling him that long runs in the hills are different, are wasting the print on their keyboard keys. They then moan about Mike prolonging the argument...)

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well said squire