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What a ridiculous statement, how can you possibly know that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
For a start many of Corbyn's supporters (if not the man himself) are remainers. And since plenty of his supporters are anti-semites, I'd say that pretty much blows your argument out of the water.
I seem to remember some "sound" advice that warned us that if we voted to leave the economy would go into immediate recession and that unemployment would increase by between 500,000 and 800,000 in the next two years - such would be the effect on investment and business confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
How did that work out?
Well the Norway plus option involves staying in both the single market and the customs union and since Morgan stood under a manifesto pledge to leave both I can understand why many of her constituents are a bit miffed.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
It's interesting how at the moment those Tory MP's who want to honour both the referendum result and their manifesto pledges are branded as right wing extremists by those who want to completely renege on theirs.
Fair point but, that said, a fair chunk of the far left voted to leave. Corbyn isn’t a racist... but he is a bit of a twat 😊Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
That didn’t happen because big businesses were immediately given big reassurances that we would strike a deal with the EU. In fact didn’t Nissan get promised a massive back hander too? That and the fact that, with sterling plummeting in value, the overseas earnings of the big companies making up the FTSE100 index, those earnings earned in foreign currencies, actually went up when patriated to the U.K. Oh and interest rates were immediately cut to the bone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Of course, the tories then slowly realised that the EU would call them out on their one and only negotiating point, the threat of a no deal. No deal hammers us the most and will cause many big U.K. based businesses to move overseas to continue trading with the EU. See what will happen to the U.K. economy then 😉
Dyson announcing his move to Singapore almost on the same day that Singapore struck their trade deal with the EU is a fantastical example of how businesses work. And that’s a big brexiteer’s business saying screw you UK🤔
This is actually a really good example of how messed up our alleged democracy is. 4 million votes, zero representation. That’s not democracy in my view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Same with the Greens and could easily be the same with the new Independence Group. Conversely the DUP, with just 290,000 votes in total, have 10 seats 🤪
You don't think anti-semitism is racism?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
As for the far left voting leave, I'd say that's true of the old guard like Corbyn but not the latest crop of headbangers. In fact one of the pleasures has been seeing the half wits gradually having their illusions shattered as they've realised their Great Leader's true views on Brexit. Oh well can't have everything I suppose, at least he still shares their hatred of Jews.
Oh right that will be the reasons for why they got it spectacularly wrong then. But if that's case why is that unemployment is not rocketing, given that the prospect of no-deal is now much more likely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
As for interest rates being immediately cut to the bone, what the heck are you talking about. They were already at 0.5% and so a cut to 0.25% was hardly earth shattering. In fact the cut was totally unnecessary, which is why it was soon reversed and in fact rates are now 0.75% - higher than in June 2016. Again, why isn't unemployment rocketing?
Finally, let's take Sterling falling, actually that was the one prediction they did get right. So how come this wasn't factored into their sophisticated economic models so that they would have known that the repatriated overseas earnings of the FTSE 100 companies would increase? How come the still made the dire economic forecast?
I don’t think he does though. He’s definitely against the far right in Israel and some of Israel’s past track record in dealing with Palestine but he doesn’t hate Jews. His problem is that he doesn’t know how to deal with nutjob labour supporters who are anti-Semitic and who vent their hatred, especially on line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
If you look at the state of the Labour Party there's plenty of them on the Remain sideQuote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I find it funny with people complaining about the lack of democarcy in the EU when you see the joke the UK calls democarcy. Here is the full breakdown for the 2015 election. The new centreists grouping will end up like the Lib Dems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ach-party.html
Party......................Votes per seat
DUP........................23,032
SNP........................25,972
SDLP.......................33,269
Conservatives.......34,244
Labour...................40,290
Sinn Fein................44,058
UUP........................57,467
Plaid Cymru.........60,564
Lib Dem................301,986
Green....................1,157,613
Ukip.......................3,881,129
My own country has its own problems with the Single Transferable Vote, While the parliment is very representative of the wishes of the people, there are a lot of Independents who care more about their little corner than the country as a whole.
Our system works well. It may keep out the fringe parties like Greens and UKIP from the UK Parliament, but it keeps out the National Front, BNP, Socialist Workers Party, Communist Party.....Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
There has been a problem particularly on the left akin to the People's Front of Judea and the Judean People's front. The left had splintered down so much in to factions outside of Labour in the 90s there were around 10 parties all at the extreme end.
I think there is room for 3 main UK wide parties - any more and they are short-term issue specific parties.
You don't think so, despite the numerous examples that show he clearly is? I gave some examples in point 30 on this thread. If you can read that and tell me that he doesn't hate Jews then I'm staggered. Many Labour MP's clearly think he does. In fact Margaret Hodge called him racist to his face. The reason he doesn't deal with the Labour internet trolls is because he agrees with them. As Ian Austin, who resigned from the Labour Party said "The hard truth is that the party is tougher on the people complaining about anti-Semitism than it is on the anti-Semites."Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
You like to band the term racist about with regards to Leave Supporters so I'm with Mr Brightside I'd be interested to know your definition of it.
The "out" margin of victory was 1,269,501. It is rediculous to say all 17.4m leave are racists, I have my own issues with the EU, despite my own country having done very well out of the EU and for the last four years has been a net contributor to the budget, which is how it should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
The question is; was free movement of EU citizens and millions of Muslims from Turkey and Libya FLOODING into the country the absolute number one priority of 600,000 voters.
Personally I think that the free movement should have been brought in gradually as the relative strength of the EU economies starts to balance out. But, in my opinion, the advantages massivly outweight the disadvantages.
You should ask yourself who and why these politicians seemed to make sure it's a disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Perhaps in the hope that enough will swing the other way and fall in to line?
Just look at what we have had.
From the Tories under May.
No Single Market, No Customs Union, No Delay, No Deal is better than a bad deal
and that had drifted to a current
Elements of Single Market, A backstop which replicates the Customs Union with no get out clause, A Delay, No Deal being ruled out.
From Labour under Corbyn.
No Single Market, No Customs Union (both in manifesto, honouring the result of the referendum
and that has drifted since the General Election to
a 2nd referendum where they will campaign for Remain.
This has been coming. It was inevitable and it will lead to a huge stand-off and possible a seismic shakeup in UK politics.
plus centerists - Lib Dems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I guess the supporters of these parties appreciate your opinion that they don't deserve a voice.
The Tories are about 70% Remain in Westminster, but about 70% Leave in the membership and voters. That imbalance will have to be rebalanced.
They have avoided the membership having a say on the leader since 2005, largely due to the political shenanigans of the MPs.
The Labour Party are about 95% Remain in Westminster, but about 40% Leave in the membership and voters, but that 40% is hugely swung by the big cities, especially London.
But they have many pockets that are like the Tories with 70% members and voters for Leave. That is demonstrated that most Labour constituencies voted Leave - around 160 out of their 262.
The Thread is "New political party?"
Other than backward references to UKIP no one has mentioned the Brexit Party yet.
I think it's notable as well that whilst we are seeing the indi breakaway (not yet a party) reflected in the polls, we haven't yet seen the Brexit Party reflected in the polls.
It almost seems to me like another establishment stitch up.
I can quite imagine given the electorates low regard for politicians that the new Brexit Party could currently command 20-30% in the polls if it was offered as an option.
That’s easy. A racist is somebody who is small minded, selfish and hates others just because they have a different skin colour/culture/language/religion and, in hating those people, feels somehow superior and more deserving in every way to those peopleQuote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Which would decimate otherwise Tory voters 😊Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
More positively I really hope the hard left and hard right have now reached their high water mark and both begin to wither on the branch. As with Donald Trump, promising populist dreams eventually hits a hard wall of reality. Real politics requires reality grounded people to work together and compromise not mini dictators promising fools dreams.
Stolly,
Witton Park above reckons "Our system works well", I am not sure I agree with him. Personally I think both the Tories and Labour are too "broad a church". The Tories have been hampered for decades by the hard right of their party, and now labour has lurched to the hard left. This leaves the moderates in both parties in a difficult place. I personally would be comfortable with a coalition consisting of some mixture of Tory Wets/Blairites/Lib Dems/SNP, which would require both of the big parties to split.
I think it would decimate Tory and Labour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
If you look at the last election, 42 Tory and 40 Labour out of which around 30 of the Tory were leavers and 18 pf labour.
Then consider that Labour has very high pockets of remain voters in London and a few cities like Manchester, Liverpool...
I reckon that the Tories and Labour would be below 30%.
I fail to see what is populist about wanting to operate as a country on similar terms to the USA, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.....
In fact the majority of the world.
Our system has worked well until it gets in to a situation where the executive are out of kilter with the people and the parties with their members and voters.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
The party executives favour bureaucracy.
In many walks of life we have seen it mushroom. Little empires growing, constantly trying to justify why they need to grow more.
We have gone from roughly 650 paid, elected officials back in the 60s, to 1'000s now. Probably over 10,000.
It needs pairing back.
MPs, MEPs, Police Commissioners, MSPs, AMs, MLAs and huge swathes of paid councillors. Then we have the EU bods such as Commissioners and their underlings, the QUANGOs, SPADS.....
The absolute cracker is Gavin Barwell (ex MP) who wrote a book How to win a Marginal Seat, promptly lost it and is now paid more money as a SPAD to Mrs May and has more influence that a Secretary of State.
That makes it seem as if our system doesn't work well, but it does and it is about to hit the reset button.
You talk of the "hard right" Tories. Fact is the Tories are a right of centre party.
There aren't any hard right. They are largely centrist Blairites. You say moderates are in a difficult place, well if they are it's off their own making.
The centrists largely ran both parties from the mid 90s to 2015. There was little politically between them. A few % here and there on tax.
Labour have reset, perhaps over reacted you might say but that will sort itself out as they'll fail in elections when it counts.
The Tories have yet to do that. They haven't had an election of leader since 2005 and the MPs know that if they did, the front end of the party would begin to more reflect the membership.
There are a lot of promising politicians in the Tories, many of them Remainers. Rory Stewart, Tobias Elwood, Kemi Badenoch, Penny Mordaunt to name a few.
Once they put Brexit to bed, move Mrs May on, along with some of the old school, I think they will do well.
So the ERG aren’t mentalist enough for you WP, it’s the Brexit party now? 🤪
So USA as a trading block has 25% of global GDP, China 15% and Europe 27%. Good ol’ U.K. on its own will have.... 3.5 ish. We’ll really pull in some greeeaaat trade deals with all that clout!
To be honest Pat we need a proper proportional representation system but, for that, you need a majority in parliament to vote for it and, given that it’s not ever in the interests of the current party holding a majority, it’ll never happen. The present system maximises frustration as people always end up voting for the party that they disagree with the least or, more probably, have the best chance of beating the party they hate the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I pretty much dislike most of the policies of the tories and far too many of the present Labour Party too, the Lib Dem’s blew it in coalition and more or less sold their souls to the devil and the greens I like but the electoral system is fixed against them. Also I live in a constituency that had a 20% Tory majority where 80,000 people vote max, meaning that a 20,000 plus vote swing is needed. So my vote is pretty much the dampest of all squibs
That would be political suicide if their leadership did reflect the membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Well, I’ve not had an invite for this and frankly I’m not sold as things stand. But on the basis that you lot are buying the drinks and covering my liabilities (e.g vomiting down my shirt) I’ll attend your party.Quote:
Other than backward references to UKIP no one has mentioned the Brexit Party yet.
Will it be like XOTFs but with more arguments and slanderous accusations?
Most importantly, have you mapped out the route yet. That’s key for me, otherwise we’ll just bumble around arguing which direction to take!
Interesting figures. I haven't seen them before. Source?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-has-s...world-economy/
Not aware that the EU is much above 15% which of course will reduce by a fair chunk when we leave, but I note you did say Europe, but 27% still seems a bit high for the whole of Europe.
What proportion of global GDP is Switzerland? Certainly much less than the UK. And yet Switzerland has a trade deal with China, something the EU hasn’t. In fact the EU has been poor at negotiating trade deals because it has to take into account 28 countries who may have very different interests. A sovereign country like the UK would not have that problem. If we ever do end up leaving the EU and it’s customs union I reckon we will have the flexibility to sign much more deals than the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
What is mentalist is when parties promise something at General Election time and almost immediately the election is over start to back pedal rapidly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
But I think you are misunderstanding what I said and you also misunderstand the ERG which actually includes some remain MPs and is used incorrectly by many commentattors.
Like it or not, there is a Brexit Party set up I believe to fight in future elections should the Government botch Brexit.
I think it will mop up a lot of "none of the above votes" and there will be lots of them up for grabs as a high proportion of the 82% who voted Labour or Tory will feel ripped off at the moment.
One of the fastest growing parties is also the old SDP which is a Eurosceptic, centrist party that supports PR. IT may be able to grow support but at the moment has no profile with the public.
I would be surprised if any of the mature economies were not shrinking as part of the world economy.
A developed western economy has less scope for growth unlike the developing world, which is starting to make and buy stuff gives them the ability to achieve growth rates that would be impossible in a developed economy. The economies of the mature regions are still hugh, in absolute terms, and growing.
In the grand scheme of things Witton, everything the tories have done since calling the referendum has been done for the benefit or to help the frankly mad brexiteer corner of their party and their now aging and fixedly anti immigrant supporting voters. There’s been zero recognition of the remainers point of view (until very very very recently and certainly too little too late) and she has bet the house on the ‘no deal’ threat leading to the EU caving in and giving the U.K. a cake and eat it deal - no downsides to trade, no contributions to EU and no open borders. As if the EU would ever give that???
Common sense would’ve dictated that given the closeness of the referendum a softer Brexit was where the common ground could be found and, had that been pursued, there’d have been far more acceptance and less acrimony of Brexit. Most remainers would’ve gone along with it even though it was still a really really stupid thing to do. But no, it had to be done the with true Tory nastiness the Davis, Boris, Rees Mogg, Gove and Farage way.....
.
I couldn't disagree with you more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
So I'd love someone to identify what recognition there has been of the vote to Leave? 2016 that bloody referendum took place.
Nearly 3 years on we haven't left. In the Commons today Mrs May has ultimately capitulated. She won't get her deal through because those that may have supported it now have no need to, she will allow a vote to block No Deal and she will allow a vote on an extension of Article 50.
The deal she is trying to get through keeps us so closely aligned to the Single Market we may as well be in. It keeps us in the EU without voting rights for up to 4 years and then we must go in to the backstop if we haven't agreed terms by then, so of course the terms we will be agreeing will be agreeable to the EU.
She is a dead duck being manipulated by her 18:5 Remain cabinet and her remain civil service and advisors, bullied by a Remain Commons.
And what consideration do you think Leave voters would have had with a 52% result in favour of Remain? Could you imagine Soubry advocating we leave the Customs Union and move to the Norway position of EEA in order to respect the result.
Not a cat in hells chance. It would have been business as usual for another 30 years.
You really think she is doing all that out of choice? If the N.I issue did not exist we would be heading for a Canada type deal which is a fairly hard Brexit.
She has been dragged kicking and screeming to where she is now.
Hmmm..... so it turns out Brexit wasn’t the doddle all the pro-leave politicians promised it would be 🤔
A Canada style deal would be the most advanced form of FTA that has been lodged with the WTO.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
If you think that is a hard Brexit I don't know what to say to you Pat. All this hard, soft is bollocks anyway.
It makes you wonder how the rest of the world manages without EU type arrangements.
But somehow, they seem to manage quite well.
Growth in the Eurozone since it was established as been half that of the USA and less than most non EU G20 countries and EU Growth on the whole only look a tad better because of those EU nations outside of the Euro that have done a tad better.
Economically it's a modern day "what not to do" and yet the ideologues still persist and actually think the answer is more EU.
Stolly talks of nutjobs but the nutjobs are those that want to shackle themselves to something that doesn't work.
What do you mean “the EU doesn’t work”? It’s got 27 nations working to shared values, it’s doing great things to minimise or avoid future conflict between those nations, it has full freedom of movement between nations, a relatively common currency and full open borders for trade on a common basis. It is investing in the poorer nations to ultimately all be able to share fully in its success. It applies strong regulation that everyone has to abide by and has very good (relative to most anywhere else) environmental values. As a large world trading block it is able to negotiate and agree trade agreements worldwide and in return seek higher regulatory and environmental standards from its trading partners. It really means something to me to be considered European and having my European status torn away by inward looking, little englanders is really galling. It’s been said before but Brexit has made me embarrassed and ashamed of how low we have stooped as a country.
Apart from that what have the Romans ever done for us 😊
True, but it is still a long way from the common market, which will hit particular sectors hard namely Farming and Services.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
https://infacts.org/exactly-canada-style-deal/
Irrelevant anyway seeing as the UK will be staying in the customs union.
I have to say I doubted him but Leo Varadkar has played a blinder here.
I heard we were using The Master's Lounge...Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
We didn't vote to establish common ground, we voted to remain or leave; the British people were asked to speak and speak they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly