Are you an FRA member? LK is explained in the annual Handbook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
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Are you an FRA member? LK is explained in the annual Handbook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
You've missed the point, again
If you read your own post from 2 days ago, you will note that you said you wanted to be "more welcoming to potential new members", and went on to say "Many of the 20,843 members of the FRUK FB group are not fell runners"Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmian
Furthermore, if you'd read my post from yesterday you would know that I understand what LK means.
If you could take the trouble to read peoples posts before you reply it would be a lot more constructive
Your main point being that instead of making the forum more inclusive, mandating people to share their real name might make it less inclusive?
How would you (and others) feel if the moderators knew people's real names (as part of the registration process), but people could still keep their identity secret if they wanted to?
I realise as I'm a moderator that sounds a bit creepy. :)
Or perhaps that should read "the moderators could find out people's real names if needed".
It would be a bit weird if I knew everyone's real names, but others in the same conversation didn't.
Are you sure that’s just not you mansplaining what women think? You know, I’m thinking that an actual woman might have a better handle on it, like all those women already on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter (but not on here) and already posting about fell, trail and ultra running using very often their real names :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
There's a lot of great points on this thread... probably the busiest thread for quite a while...
The concern for me though...
If you put aside the fantastic archive of info that this place is...
If there's 20000 people on the facebook group, 8000 in the FRA and (at an optimistic guess) 30 people who post here regularly or semi-regularly.... there's a fair chance the powers that be will decide its just not worth the hassle and close it down.
This would undoubtedly be a terrible thing... we should do all we can to keep the forum busy... post up any up-to-the-minute info re races etc, and if its in our power, encourage others to use the forum, particularly RO's etc to share info on here...
A great example was during the various lockdowns, when race cancellations and re-schedulings were posted up in here on the "Another victim" thread, and that thread was often way more up-to-date than the (excellent) race pages on the FRA website itself.
On the other hand, Marco is to my knowledge the only mixed race guy on here, has voiced his concerns over having to identify himself, and seems to have been largely ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellbeast
Haha I have actual real experience taking straight on and questioning properly racist comments made on here (and even taking flack for doing so), when everyone else seemed to be covering their eyes to it. For sure I can understand Marco in the light of all that
You make some great points Trav - thank you. I am open to maintaining the Forum going forward but I will need convincing that it does have a future and not just a glorious past. I currently have one volunteer from this group, willing to help us and there are some who seem to be determined to misconstrue my comments. If the FRA are to invest hard currency, then should we not expect members of this forum to also be members of the FRA?Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
If there are genuine concerns about abuse then tell me about it on [email protected] as it goes without saying that abuse should not be tolerated on this forum. I stand behind my earlier comment that the best way to increase diversity within the sport is to celebrate participation of those who have already found and enjoy fell running and Adnan Khan is a great example. The sport is welcoming to all and should be promoted as such and great sources of information and advice are those on this Forum and the clubs they run for but if we don't know who they are, then they don't appear approachable.
So, if you have a vested interest in the future of the FRA Forum then get in touch with me.
I don't bite and if I misunderstand something then explain it to me.
I've been on the forum for years and seen it go through various periods of activity/inactivity. I think it's main problem at the moment is a lack of frequent, regular posters. For a forum to be successful it needs 'content' that isn't static like the vast majority of threads on here. It's a bit chicken and egg though i.e. you need more folk participating to encourage others to join.
Like a lot of people here I'm not on Facebook, but it serves a purpose and clearly a lot of people are opting to use it. And whether you like what's being posted there or not, it looks like it's at least lively and worth checking in on regularly if you're looking for new posts.
I could well imagine this place isn't particularly welcoming for newcomers. I agree that newcomers would be welcomed if they posted, but I doubt many get that far. The current small number of posters creates an impression of everyone knowing each other and some of the older, contentious threads (which also tend to have been the most active) aren't a great advert. I certainly know a couple of people in real life who have drifted away from the forum because of some of the prevailing opinions on here and how they're expressed. Even in this (generally positive) thread the tone of some posts has shifted pretty quickly to unnecessarily aggro.
Re. anonymity, I reckon the idea of encouraging people to use real names and avatars is the way to go. I think generally it makes for healthier, more accountable exchanges, but there will be some people who, for professional or personal reasons, aren't comfortable sharing their name and that should be respected.
And yeah, a new look and some slicker functionality wouldn't hurt.
Here endeth my two pence worth.
Thanks for reminding us how great you are compared to 'everyone else'. Please list other wonderful attributes you excel in so we can continue to be awestruck.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellbeast
hi Everybody, long time Hi to all you older forumites...I'm 100% the forum should stay
the experience, knowledge and info in these pages far out does that on the other Facebook page ahem cough.
I've made many friends over 15 years directly from the forum, ive helped many a forumite on their BGs and ultras, passed on safety advice and occasionally I might have even passed on some of my sneaky race lines... I also lost a few friends as time passes, but its great to look back to the early threads and remember them.
I do try and give the forum a big push every now and then on the FB page. far easier to access the info on here.
I don't know if its possible to have a split area..general advice free to all, FRA issues on a members only thread?? that's for the tech guys.
Names...I'm not too bothered, those heady days of working out who Yorkshire thug were...what memories..
Things do get heated at times as they do on FB but we are one family and we don't always agree but at least we should be civil to each other. any such nonsense of abuse etc should be taken down what ever your side.
Might hang around for a while...I'll be in the Grandmasters lounge dusty the cobwebs, ;)
Look, please, lets not re-open old wounds! Neither side of old spats exactly covered themselves with glory. And please lets not miscontrue some people backing away from a heated situation as 'covering their eyes'. Such assertions are misguided and inaccurate. Its why people get upset and leave the forum. I had been most encouraged by the reasoned debate that had appeared on this thread....so these recent comments are just so .....disappointing.
We should probably not be too hasty to compare ourselves to the 20000 on the FellrunnersUK facebook page either (although i did that very thing on my previous post)
It's worth remembering that the FRA are very clear that this particular facebook page is totally unofficial and does not represent the FRA in any way (although i know that there is some interchangge between the mods on that page and the FRA).... the FRA are understandably very keen to make this separation clear when contentious issues come up.
There is actually an FRA facebook page which generally keeps to official notices, champs race info, and the like.
So you were Yorkshire Thug then Ian???Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Well I never.:)
Hi TravsQuote:
Originally Posted by Travs
There only one member of the committee in current the Mod/Admin team...me :)
the reason I'm there was when the Forum went down after a hack a few of the forumites set up a FB page to keep in contact, I'm the only one left, when the forum came back on line it was offered to the FRA but they didn't want it so that's when it became a separate entity, of course we're still part of the Fell running family, we promote the same things and do share similar values. We promote FRA FB page, First aid and Nav courses, safety info...etc..
Hi Graham ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
you see this is the sort of banter i missed..:D
I always thought it was a certain brash female runner.....
Yes, I think you're right. I don't know what women actually think, but because we have a small number of active female members they are unlikely to say. Being in a small minority tends to make people less confident, and we shouldn't forget thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Fellbeast
Well that response has made me laugh...but I had better not reveal why.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Please email Charmain if you can help with the forum focus group, they probably need more than just one person off here.
I'm hedging my bets, Yorkshire Thug was non-binary. And a thug from Yorkshire.
I would offer but FB group takes so much time because of spammers and bots. not so the forum Id wager but yes 3 or 4 admins would work best.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Thanks Mr. B - I now have three willing volunteers to help out which is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Hmmm..? And yet from the very same Wheeze in September 2020Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Anyway you'll be glad to know that I think I'm out and waiting for the revampQuote:
Those who have goaded or taunted [xxxxxxx] should hang their heads in shame. He is a long standing forumite whose rather simplistic views have long been tolerated. Such behaviour should have no place down our previously friendly pub.
I see that IanDP has advertised the Forum on the Fellrunners' Facebook page, and immediately got comments from two people finding themselves unable to login. I have also recently had problems, where I login, then write a post, try to submit it and get told that I need to be logged in to post.
I would be very hesitant to criticise Brett, who appears to be doing the best possible job with what he has got; but if the FRA wants to revive the Forum, it definitely needs improved functionality, which may require some financial outlay, as well as a good techie to run the show.
A young woman, from an urban part of Lancashire, gets taken to watch a fell race by a friend and likes what she sees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmian
She decides to take up the sport, and duly becomes a member of the FRA forum, entering her very unusual name along with a photograph of herself
Living at home, she tells her dad that she is driving to Manchester at weekends to visit friends, when really she is racing in the Lake District. She does this because in the culture that she was born into mixing with men like this would be forbidden.
All is well for some time, until one day she leaves her laptop on and her dad sees who she has been mixing with and what she has been doing.
The young woman never runs again, and the story ends with domestic violence*
*This is a fictional story, but it could become a true one in the future
Charmian, can you please explain to us all how 'we should also celebrate the participation of minority groups rather than hiding behind anonymity.' will prevent a story such as this from becoming a future reality?
I think that the forum has got some dated functionality which will be sorted when the new website is sorted fingers crossed... I already see the forum being used in a better way than FB.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Marco I see your point how would you suggest we proceed. would you like to send a suggestion to the committee.
The scenario you relate does not refer to a lack of inclusion relative to the sport of fell running but rather a cultural problem over which we have no control. That young woman would be better advised to join a local club to get real support and not to join the Forum but remain as a non-posting viewer.
Did anyone watch Rehna on the Kendal Mountain Festival last year? She is a young Pakistani woman from Ashton who went on a group walk at Dovestones and had a tantrum, taking off her boots and throwing them at the leader. Roll on and she is now a qualified mountain leader at the Lindley Educational Trust: https://www.lindleyeducationaltrust.org/about/
She was an absolute inspiration and very entertaining. She would be the kind of role model I would advocate.
https://www.outwardbound.org.uk/case...my-story-rehna
I think the point was more about the young lady being able to participate in forum discussions and maintain her anonymity. Joining a local running club would probably be a little close to home for her controlling parents not to notice.
I've held back from this as I run little now and never race, but my 2 pennyworth is as follows.
I think the forum does need updating, easier to post photos would be one thing.
I am slightly against the addition of like/dislike buttons, they are great for the ego when a post is smothered with "likes" but it can also work against a forumite. If someone is a little outspoken or makes themselves unpopular they will be hit with dislikes on every post (virtual stalkers take this to extremes). This could almost be classified as forum bullying and can certainly hinder open debates on controversial matters with some not bothering to post or dropping out - preferable to being seen to be unpopular.
The buttons are a mix of good and bad, but for me the bad can slightly outweigh the good so I would not have them.
I've never done facebook or seen the fell runners one, but the situation with this forum and the FB equivallent sound exactly the same as my fishing forums - the majority head for FB with repetative questions and mindless opinions, whilst a few remain on the forums and debate or discuss more. Perhaps things will turn around in time, but a better presented forum would be more appealing to those looking in.
I have no objection to using my name but as everyone knows me as Moley I prefer to use that on here - and nobody is removing my sacred Mole avatar!! I quite understand if some wish to remain anonymous and don't have a problem with it. If we want to use our real names then add it to our visible personal profiles. Anyway, it is a bit of fun when a YT or similar turns up to cause opinionated havoc ;).
Thank you for providing us with some of the very best content ever seen on the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellbeast
Can't say I have always agreed with you on everything, but on occasions you've provided good comment and I wish you well
Can't say that I'm that surprised, and I'm only staying to defend the down-trodden from oppression
Could be here some time
Thank you for your answer; it has almost as many holes in it as the your idea, (which has been discussed on here for at least 10 years), that you are trying to bludgeon through, regardless of the opposition, legal considerations and how many members you will lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmian
I am deeply concerned that the FRA is saying that people from certain cultures and religions should not join the forum. Is this legal? I doubt it under race discrimination laws. Prospective members will view what you said as racist, and whilst that probably wasn't what you meant your ill-considered reply has set us back years
Before I started racing, I read every single post on every single thread of this forum. I am sure that there will be some people doing something similar. Reading a large number of a person's post reveal a lot about their character. If any prospective members have read your post they are probably thinking 'Maybe not' about joining now
Simple solution - no dislike button.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Positivity!
Good to see you back again Ian. As I see it, and I really think it needs discussing properly, Travs probably offered the best view with what he said a day or two back (below).Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
The point I am trying to make, but am not getting through to Charmian, is that there will always be cases where what she is proposing won't work. It is not a one-fit glove, so such an approach will always fail. I think a sentence along the lines of, "whilst we appreciate that some members are not able to, or may not wish to, supply their names or a photo, if you could it would help keep the forum a friendly area and we would appreciate it if you did" on the joining form would be the way to goQuote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The method in bold below seems to work pretty well:-Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK
I like that idea, then we could have a chart of how many "likes" you receive and gain access to the Masters lounge - or even the Grandmasters lounge. No mass posting drivel, we have to be liked to gain entrance :eek:.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
There are of course the obvious issues around processing personal data that everyone seems to have missed which may place an added burden on the FRA but I would also advocate the the approach that JohnK suggested which provides the anonymity that some desire whilst maintaining accountability. This would seem a good standard to adopt but I would suggest also allowing users to display personal identification if they wished. You can't really mandate that without enforcing a member only forum and I don't think that is the aim of the FRA from what Charmian previously posted.
Times have changed since the first Forum.
I now think:
1. A Forum should be a robust, vibrant and useful aspect of the FRA, given improved functionality. It should not be beyond the wit of fellrunners to make one work, if they so wish.
2. It is unacceptable that the Forum Master (on behalf of the FRA) does not know the identity of every contributor. The FRA is a Governing Body and not some sleazy private laddish club. People who go to great lengths to hide themselves are not pure of heart.
3. Every poster should be readily identifiable to all viewers except where they make a special plea to the Forum Master that is accepted. That bar should be set high.
4. Only FRA members should be allowed to post. Let facebook be the home for uninformed dross.
5. The lauded Forum "valuable historical data" is rather like motherhood and apple pie but if it is truly valued it is not because of like/dislike "buttons, bells and whistles" and they should have no place.
I agree with all your points except number 3. People should have to submit their real name to the Forum Master when they join the Forum, but the name should be treated as personal data, with the usual GDPR protections. The rest of us don't need to know the identities of everyone on the Forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Where the bar should be set high is in not tolerating abuse, or behaviour likely to deter other people from posting on the Forum. For example, I think it was write to ban Oracle, who seemed incapable of making any political point without going into a rant, and definitely soured the atmosphere.
Careful Anthony or you'll be accused of 'logic-signaling' :)Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Well said.