101 uses for a mobile!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrahamB

Indeed the FRA did. I drafted it.

As I recall mobile phones were not raised at the relevant FRA Committee but there was a debate on the definition of waterproof rather than windproof and what is "full" body cover.

I did Edale in 2007 and I have raced in even worse conditions.

However whether or not I think carrying a mobile phone is sensible, as a race organiser my start point is that the race organiser is always right. It is his race and if you don't want to play by his rules then don't play at all.

Btw there are now approaching 7000 members of the FRA. The days that Wheeze likes to wax poetical about are gone or going. Fellrunning isn't a fringe pastime for a few hard men who build dry stone walls and have sheep anymore.

Welcome to the real world of the 21st Century.

---

finally a bit of common sense graham , thankyou

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by david

We do, but that doesn't mean we can't disagree with them and have an open discussion.

---

this is correct david but clearly some people on here are taking the piss out of andy and thats naughty in my book.
ive never heard so much fuss about a bit of plastic that wll weigh naff all in your bag.
its just an extra precaution , the only problem i can see is that we will have girls aloud ringtones going off throughout the race :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Do we want to preserve the 'old-skool' hard-man image or go for the full-lycra GPS version?

---

What's the outfit these days for the 'hard man' image? Hope it's not hessian sacking and hob nail boots - that could chafe really bad in lots of places, or perhaps that a good thing! Definatley a bit of a lycra man myself, damm that wanting to feel as comfortable as possible whilst running and I don't run for image sake.

If anyone's intrested the orange network works really well around the whole of the skyline route and you can buy a 'pay as you go' phone for a tenner, not a bad price for a bit of saftey kit. I'll be taking mine and should, God forbid, I go and do myself a mischief I'll use it to call MR.

The thing about 'safety equipment' lulling people into a false sense of security is if you are stupid enough to think a mobile phone etc, etc, is all you will need to get you safely around a race like the skyline, well surely thats a case of natural selection.

The longer I spend in the hills and mountains, the more I realise the importance of carrying the kit that makes your time their as safe as possible.

And don't forget if you don't use it for the safety aspect, you could always to try Ringing Roger ... get it.

Of and one more thing......

Quote:

---

On the FRA/UKA issue there were a load of people of the sheep tendency, saying "the committee know best, they put lots of work in and we should respect their judgement".

---

Thanks for generalising about the intelligence of the majority of voters in the FRA/UKA vote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by me

On the FRA/UKA issue there were a load of people of the sheep tendency, saying "the committee know best, they put lots of work in and we should respect their judgement".

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry 440

Thanks for generalising about the intelligence of the majority of voters in the FRA/UKA vote.

---

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was generalising.

I was talking about several specific post(er)s in the forum debate on the FRA/UKA issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry 440

The thing about 'safety equipment' lulling people into a false sense of security is if you are stupid enough to think a mobile phone etc, etc, is all you will need to get you safely around a race like the skyline, well surely thats a case of natural selection.

---

Risk compensation theory is more subtle than that though. There's a useful piece here, with some stuff about how anti-lock braking may make people drive more dangerously.

I'm not suggesting that it's an exact parallel. However, the point has been made of the mountain rescue usefulness of casualties having phones with them. Would some or any of these people not have become casualties if they didn't have phones with them, and therefore hadn't pushed the envelope that little bit more....?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daz h

clearly some people on here are taking the piss out of andy

---

I didn't see those posts, Daz, where are they? There's a lot of lively discussion, but surely that's a good thing?

Yeah.
Personally, I think its a great thing to have my phone with me. I bought a cheap (£15) Nokia 1100 that seems pretty impervious to being mashed about in a bum bag along with fruit, compass, maps, ventolin inhaler, whistle etc etc. But it's my personal choice to take it with me. I take my own safety seriously and carrying a phone does not seem to hinder my enjoyment whether I'm racing or not.

As ever, the point of the discussion is principle and precedent. And the very disparate views offered in this thread reminds us that we are all different with our own versions of 'common sense'. I view the compulsory kit rules as a bare minimum or a starting point. Others clearly view the whole thing as a blessed nuisance. That's all fine. What we must take care of is the view that those outside of our sport will take. Those with little or no understanding of the appeal. If they take mobile phone carrying at Edale as precedent, where will this end?
I've never built a dry stone wall or kept sheep. I am a townie. But I cherish the release that fell running gives me from the normal downtrodden situation where I have to do what I am told the whole time. A lot of the appeal is deciding for myself what precautions I will take and how well I will plan my attack at an difficult challenge. In that regard, I seem to be more cautious than many and more cavalier than as many others.

Viewed on its own, carrying a phone seems a great idea. But I do not like to contemplate the larger wedge coming behind the idea.

I'm with you a little bit Wheeze, if I'm honest it dosen't sit 100% comfortably but as already mentioned it is the race organiser choice and I'm willing to go with it if he's willing to stage the race.

In the worst case scenario, joking aside, what do you really think the 'larger wedge' would be?

I didn't see those posts, Daz, where are they? There's a lot of lively discussion, but surely that's a good thing?[/quote]


okay perhaps thats a bit harsh , sorry mud, wheeze, chris and all the rest.

hang on back in a mo my phone is buzzing


oh its just a free upgrade text ,problem solved:rolleyes:

Haven't been on the forum for a few days and was planning to put an entry in for the Skyline but I haven't got a mobile. I'm trying very hard not to be rude... but... bollocks.

Running into the teeth of a bone numbing wind on the long and very gradual descent after the final climb of the Tour of Pendle last month, I knew that I badly needed to keep running to get out of the cold; I was in a sorry condition there for a while and the thought of stopping and trying to fumble about for a mobile phone wouldn't have crossed my mind; I mean what then? I get in touch with emergency services and wait? In the cold open fell with a god awful windchill?

A mobile could help if someone got completely lost in clag or fell and broke a bone but its no protection against the cold or hypothermia really and a whistle or shouting could do the job and get nearby help much more readily when in a race.

I will readily take my mobile with me to run the race but alot of good points have been made here; funnily enough the comments that have seemed the most grouchy have been from the organiser and from the establishment perhaps mainly because they don't like the idea of a forum chewing the cud over something really interesting and relevant. I'm not critizing Andyj for his (their) decision to make mobile phones compulsory (although I disagree with it) but he's wide open to criticism for having such a short fuse when others have voiced their opinions.

I am criticizing him.



(But not on here - I don't like the thought that I won't be doing the skyline again). I'm sure he's a very very nice man with only the best interests of fellrunners at heart.




Bollocks.

Where's Graeme when you need him???? He's not posted for a little while but is in my club and am sure he won't mind me speaking for him!!!:rolleyes:

At the fell relays in chipping recently Graeme's lovely wife made him take his mobile with him on his leg. He was on leg 3 so in a pair and the 2 of them approached a damsel in distress who subsequently had broken her ankle??

JJ -was it an ankle break can't quite remember - couldn't walk on it anyway.

ANYWAY - As graeme had his phone AND the mobile number of MR - yes his Mrs made him write that down too! He could use his phone and call those that were needed to be called. Subsequently the rescue services could reach her a hell of a lot quiker than they would/could have done if someone had to run all the way back etc.

On this occasion the fact that someone DID have a mobile phone made all the difference.

What? 999?

Sorry - realised you said MOBILE MR number.

only just discovered this thread
assumed from the title that it was some sort of jokey thing
or, if it was to do with mobile phones, of no interest to me as I do not own one

just to register my 2-penn'orth:

I will not ever enter a race where a mobile phone is compulsory.

If it becomes "standard kit" I will stop entering races full stop and just run on my own.

I appreciate that carrying one makes you a bit safer, but if I wanted to stay safe on a race day I would stay at home in bed with the curtains drawn.

This ruling is discriminatory and unlawful surely - what about members of the Amish religion - they can't carry mobile phones and so are prevented from entering this race. My own religion prevents me from entering too.





I'm a Luddhist.

Not passing judgement at all but
I am surprised at the number of people who seem to have internet but no mobile phone!

Why?...... ( the dots are only there because the message was too short without them.)

So all these people who don't have a phone are prepared to buy waterproofs with taped seams, hat, gloves, compass that they may/may not be able to use, maps, bum bag, whistle but won't pay a tenner for a phone from Orange which with a 20 quid top-up voucher that won't expire, they can use for any races that stipulate phone required? The phone and voucher is a damn sight cheaper than a cheap set of half decent waterproofs.

I rarely if ever use my waterproofs unless I go to a race, infact, I've never worn my waterproof trousers, but I don't resent the costs of buying them to be allowed to enter certain races.

No ones forcing you to carry the phone 24/7 once you've got it. It's just something else to take to the race for if it's required.

Some food for thought here. I would have said - "always go with the organiser", but this is assuming that the organiser (and organising committee presumably in this instance) is actually sane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grouse

Why?...... ( the dots are only there because the message was too short without them.)

---

Both modern forms of technology...similar running costs...I would have figured people who had internet would have a mobile phone, at least in the household!
Appears I was wrong.
Dom makes a good point, but no one has picked up on my issue of phone breakage - has anyone elses phone packed in due to extreme conditions - I imagine the cheaper phones would be more fragile??

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the expression of that opinion does not, surely, have to stoop to questioning the sanity of a race organiser? You'll be very fortunate if their is an 'Edale Skyline' race at all next year, at this rate! The organiser of the 3 Peaks Cyclo Cross Race ( same man for 40 odd years and he's also ridden in ever event) makes some pretty hard and unpopular calls as to just what kit you must, can and cannot use in that event and people do express disagreement at some of those decisions, but at the end of the day everyone has full respect for the man's tireless efforts to lay on a safe and fair event for the enjoyment of all the participants. Some of the posters on this thread could learn a thing or two from posters on the 3PCX forum.
I'm a bit indifferent to the cell phone issue, but take heart AndyJ, don't let the 'knockers' grind you down.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George

Some food for thought here. I would have said - "always go with the organiser", but this is assuming that the organiser (and organising committee presumably in this instance) is actually sane.

---

Mmmh. "sane" or "insane", and skipping lithely (oh I am very lithe) past the philosophical debate (eg was Nietsche sane? Not sure, but he wrote more profound words than one will ever read on this Forum) surely the point is that the organiser decides?

Did Nietsche organise many fell races?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrahamB

was Nietsche sane?

Did Nietsche organise many fell races?

---

Zzz...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrahamB

Did Nietsche organise many fell races?

---

I Kant think of any, but they he may have run on a Plato. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mud

Zzz...

---

Is that your phone going off on vibrate mode? :confused:

I think it's 'dumbing down' as is happeneing in so many other areas. I use the internet but I am very wary of high technology. Call me paranoid if you like (lots of people do - I know all about them;) :D.) The government don't want a populace of people who can think for and take care of themselves: they want a populace of consumers - the stupider the better, and they know that in a few years time civil disorder and environmental catastrophe will be the dominant features of society. The surveillance and policing of this society is already being put into place. Use your loaf - what do you really think our lives will be like in ten years time? It's scary to think about isn't it? I feel strongly about the issue of biometric id schemes and surveillance generally, and I think the push for it from governments and big corporations is part of the preparations for the civil controls which will become necessary if we don't sort out our energy problems - and it don't look like we are gonna do that do it? Problems like food shortages and breakdowns of local government - here not in Africa. I am not a complete pessimist. I have two kids and I dearly hope that my worst fears are wrong. If we continue our short term consumerist culture (which mobile phones play a big part in), and we continue to go along with government's and corporation's lie about sustainable economic growth then the future is truly bleak. Hope for the future lies with the movements against these ideas. There are signs that government is waking up to these ideas, but of course they are in thrall to the real rulers of the world - the corporations.

I think one option for the government, after their biometric id plans have finally unravelled, is to combine mobile phone technology with their id plans, so your phone is your id card. People think I'm strange for not carrying a mobile phone, but everywhere I look I can see people talking to people who are not there. Society is fragmented. Mobile phones fragment society. Divided and conquered. The only hope for us is if we reject (disposable) mobile phones and the other wasteful polluting and soporific trappings of globalisation, and 'sustainable' economic growth and start talking to each other about our world at a local level and how we want it to be,and taking action to make it like that, using low cost, low tech local solutions.

I know I'm rambling a bit but I hope this makes sense. I'm not just railing about it because I'm a member of the Awkward Squad (I am a fully paid - up member). To me it goes against everything that fell racing is about. I escape these worries when I run and race. I don't want to live my life in complete safety; part of the allure of the fells is that they are potentially dangerous - beauty and danger often go together. How many of us would go there if they were completely safe?

Grouse, I am truly with you on most of the above. The difficulty with our philosophy is that it does not EASILY lend itself to the structure, organisation and management of fell races. Previous posts on here have hinted at what might or might not happen to a fell race organiser, should the worst befall one of his competitors. They need to wake up... it already has happened. Pete Bland, as organiser of the Kentdale Horseshoe, was well and truly mauled by the media and the "powers that be" at the inquest into Judith Taylor who perished of hypothermia in the 1994 race. That is why the event was moved from April to July. Conditions were not dissimilar to the 2007 Edale Skyline. If you truly want to cast off the shackles of techno-legislation, on the fells, then get into the arena of long distance personal challenges and if competition is your thing, try orienteering - no personal electronic frippery allowed, apart from your SportIdent timing card, just a map and compass.

I am into the arena of long distance personal challenges, and I nearly stated in my post that if I wanted to be completely safe I would stick with orienteering in the park. I just don't think that techno legislation should play a part in fell racing to any great degree and I am afraid, like others that it may well prove to be the thin end of the wedge. Will runners be required to carry a gps in the future? No? Why not? They might not be able to read a map. Is there also the possibilty of 'risk compensation' AJ said one of his rationales was that it is not easy to vet entrants for relevant experience. If mobiles are mandatory, are they going to relax the vetting procedure?

Grouse, don't assume that orienteering is safe. 12 months ago, I did my first night event in a very popular wood on the Lancs/Cumbria border. Embarrassingly, with only my weedy little 7 l.e.d. Lucido Coolight for illumination, I ended up slightly off the map and up against an 8ft tall mesh fence, which I could have easily climbed. If I had done, it would have 150 - 200 feet into one of the deepest disused lime quarries in the area!:eek:

I do not assume orienteering is safe. I organise children's orienteering events, so I do have sympathy with the organiser's concerns. Maybe I should insist that all the kids who do orienteering with me take mobile phones. Never even occurred to me. It would be missing the point though surely. These kids need to practice thinking for themselves and developing self reliance. That is precisely why they get so much out of it. A bit like me and fell running I suppose. I just hope BOF don't get to hear about this or they might insist on kids carrying phones, and then it wouldn't be worth them orienteering at all in my opinion. Still they could always go on the computer - some good orienteering simulations available on the internet. That would be safe wouldn't it?

I can see that a mobile phone may help in the situation where you come across a badly-injured fellow competitor, where time is of the essence, and you happen to have a signal. I'm not aware of any of these cases - have there been any?

I'm not sure how a mobile phone would help in the case of slow-onset hypothermia, where decsion-making faculties are dulled, you are by yourself, and you just want to lie down and go to sleep.

My understanding is that the few deaths in fell races have been the latter.

I may be wrong though?

[quote=Mud;92237]I can see that a mobile phone may help in the situation where you come across a badly-injured fellow competitor, where time is of the essence, and you happen to have a signal. I'm not aware of any of these cases - have there been any?
Mud - get on the programme - take a look at Emmilou's earlier post (1 or 2 pages back) wrt the incident at this years UKA Hill & Fell Relays.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wheezing donkey

Mud - get on the programme - take a look at Emmilou's earlier post (1 or 2 pages back) wrt the incident at this years UKA Hill & Fell Relays.

---

Well I had that one in mind, really.

The way Emmilou described it. the woman had hurt her ankle a bit.

MRT thought that it warranted calling the air ambulance out!
It did turn out, once thoroughly examined in hospital, not to be as bad as it first appeared.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wheezing donkey

MRT thought that it warranted calling the air ambulance out!
It did turn out, once thoroughly examined in hospital, not to be as bad as it first appeared.

---

Maybe best glossed over in the mobile-phone-saves-fellrunning-lives argument then...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mud

Maybe best glossed over in the mobile-phone-saves-fellrunning-lives argument then...

---

OK Mud, next time you are writhing in agony, in a remote and rough location with no vehicular access, from a cropped ankle that you can't bear to walk on........ we'll just dawdled off and see if we happen to bump into an MRT member, won't bother getting the cell phone out of the bumbag!!!
An incident is an incident; does not have to be immediately life threatening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrahamB

Mmmh. "sane" or "insane", and skipping lithely (oh I am very lithe) past the philosophical debate (eg was Nietsche sane? Not sure, but he wrote more profound words than one will ever read on this Forum) surely the point is that the organiser decides?

Did Nietsche organise many fell races?

---

Perhaps we should move off the sane or unsane and think about regulation. Who does any sort of vetting/ controlling / anything else you want to call it of organisers? In entering a race, we rely on them having made some good judgements. Yet as I understand it, anyone (who's probably mad enough!!!) can opt to be a race organiser. And now to be really controversial - didn't we have a thing about race officials with UKA a while back? Seemed to think it wasn't popular, but maybe we should have some sort of "qualification" for race organisers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George

but maybe we should have some sort of "qualification" for race organisers.

---

That's me off to the dark side then!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eccentric

That's me off to the dark side then!

---

Which race do you organise then Eccentric?

Rewinding back to something I said earlier, could not this issue have been introduced more diplomatically? I suspect a fair proportion of runners would carry a mobile on longs themselves because they have made their own personal 'risk assessment' and decided it was worth it (that's what I did). Would be interesting to conduct a straw poll at the next long you do. Just ask for a show of hands at the start.
Race instructions could have encouraged people to take their phones and perhaps offered a discount off the race fee. I would be willing to bet that this may have resulted in at least 50% of the field carrying such a device.All this could have been achieved without enforcement which is the 'smart' way to go.

At the one fatality I have been involved with, would a mobile phone have saved the life? Debatable, given Mud's point above and the vagaries of signal availability. Would the use of a compass have saved the life? Almost certainly because the person would never have strayed off course in the first place. In a nutshell, prevention is better than cure.

But, at the end of all this, I completely agree that the RO's decision is final. Those that don't like the rules, stay away.