Cheats

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Originally Posted by So Wood

About right from you FM
School boy.

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You should be so lucky "Colossus"....you're not my type

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

They check to see if your kit is tight? that must be a lot of groping. A (wo)man of taste

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Hmmmm, I wonder if it is time to start volunteering at fell races, to check peoples kit :D

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

Where's his map, whistle, compass and bottoms then? Up his arse????

Lloyd's a good lad and I still think Ian's being a touch harsh to be honest peejay

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Was MWC required in this event FM? Perhaps the RO dispensed with it owing to conditions on the day...

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Originally Posted by PeeJay

Was MWC required in this event FM? Perhaps the RO dispensed with it owing to conditions on the day...

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No idea sir....obviously I was being facetious earlier....there was certainly, from memory, no announcement about kit.......no matter to be honest.....I still think using the term "cheat" is a little harsh

Iain is right. On the run up sitch La there were runners around me, without the proper kit. I resent it when my bum-bag weighed around a pound.

So a proposition. Lets put a minimum weight on a bum-bag. The weight should be a reasonable expectation of proper kit I.e. bottoms, tops,map, compass, whistle and food. Minus sweat.

As you finish through the funnel at the end, you place the kit on a small Salter scale. This would be waived for anyone who needed to put on their kit during the run.Anyone below the minimum would be DQ. Of course you'd have to ignore the food if it's been consumed, or else weigh at the start as well.

No incentive now to not carry kit. People could still cheat by swapping bags etc, but this would be risky, as someone might see them.

Its alright saying its all down to the race organizer, but how much jobs do you think they do in preparation as it is? Yes the kit checks need to be done, but it all takes time which most organizers don't have much of. For example the '3 peaks.' The organiser cant check every runner there if there was 500 people like 2008(extreme circumstance i know). But it will always happen

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Originally Posted by FellrunningGod123

Its alright saying its all down to the race organizer, but how much jobs do you think they do in preparation as it is? Yes the kit checks need to be done, but it all takes time which most organizers don't have much of. For example the '3 peaks.' The organiser cant check every runner there if there was 500 people like 2008(extreme circumstance i know). But it will always happen

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It's a bit much to ask of any organiser, even of a small race.......Peejay will have suitable experience to comment on this, being a several time race organiser himself (british champ race)...what's your take peejay?

Why don't you DNA test the runners to ensure that they are who they say they are? Or fingerprint them...

I thought running was first and foremost meant to be enjoyable, things like this take the fun out of sport - there has to be an element of trust in your fellow runners.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Iain is right. On the run up sitch La there were runners around me, without the proper kit. I resent it when my bum-bag weighed around a pound.

So a proposition. Lets put a minimum weight on a bum-bag. The weight should be a reasonable expectation of proper kit I.e. bottoms, tops,map, compass, whistle and food. Minus sweat.

As you finish through the funnel at the end, you place the kit on a small Salter scale. This would be waived for anyone who needed to put on their kit during the run.Anyone below the minimum would be DQ. Of course you'd have to ignore the food if it's been consumed, or else weigh at the start as well.

No incentive now to not carry kit. People could still cheat by swapping bags etc, but this would be risky, as someone might see them.

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You sound like Max Mosely now, are you going to limit the amount spent on kit to prevent rich runners from buying ultra-lightweight, but still high quality kit?

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Iain is right. On the run up sitch La there were runners around me, without the proper kit. I resent it when my bum-bag weighed around a pound.

So a proposition. Lets put a minimum weight on a bum-bag. The weight should be a reasonable expectation of proper kit I.e. bottoms, tops,map, compass, whistle and food. Minus sweat.

As you finish through the funnel at the end, you place the kit on a small Salter scale. This would be waived for anyone who needed to put on their kit during the run.Anyone below the minimum would be DQ. Of course you'd have to ignore the food if it's been consumed, or else weigh at the start as well.

No incentive now to not carry kit. People could still cheat by swapping bags etc, but this would be risky, as someone might see them.

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It's a thought CL but I can't see using weight working. would we provide weights to to bring packs up to the same weight if under? It's all about carry the correct kit what ever it weighs.

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Originally Posted by TheHeathens

Why don't you DNA test the runners to ensure that they are who they say they are? Or fingerprint them...

I thought running was first and foremost meant to be enjoyable, things like this take the fun out of sport - there has to be an element of trust in your fellow runners.

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Running is about enjoying your self and there were times the at the race the other day I wasn't because of the cheats:mad: because they p!ss me off. trust would be fine if it wasn't so blatant.

I think you are getting pedantic now with the DNA etc even if it is toungue in cheek.

After over 30 years of competing and almost as long organising, I can say that that I have never had occasion to believe that anyone was deliberately cheating (except in relays which I will discount) I’ve known many people take the wrong route/line, haven’t we all, but its invariably by mistake. As far as kit carrying goes, no one particularly likes to carry it, and some dislike it more than others (Mrs PJ for one!) Some runners carry a ridiculous amount of gear with them whilst the majority will just take the essentials.

As an organiser, the last thing I wish to do is lay the law down. I expect runners to use a little common sense and carry what they feel is necessary for themselves, subject to the requirements on the day. One thing that does p… me off however is when runners turn up without kit at any time of the year. Running is all about enjoyment in a relaxed atmosphere and I wouldn’t go down the route of enforced kit checks for the majority of events, but hasten to add there are times when it may be necessary.

Finally I do find the word ‘cheat’ in this context a little harsh, and wanted to clarify that Lloyd did comply with race requirements on the occasion quoted. This is after all a public forum and its not unknown for wrong information to be given.

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Originally Posted by PeeJay

After over 30 years of competing and almost as long organising, I can say that that I have never had occasion to believe that anyone was deliberately cheating (except in relays which I will discount) I’ve known many people take the wrong route/line, haven’t we all, but its invariably by mistake. As far as kit carrying goes, no one particularly likes to carry it, and some dislike it more than others (Mrs PJ for one!) Some runners carry a ridiculous amount of gear with them whilst the majority will just take the essentials.

As an organiser, the last thing I wish to do is lay the law down. I expect runners to use a little common sense and carry what they feel is necessary for themselves, subject to the requirements on the day. One thing that does p… me off however is when runners turn up without kit at any time of the year. Running is all about enjoyment in a relaxed atmosphere and I wouldn’t go down the route of enforced kit checks for the majority of events, but hasten to add there are times when it may be necessary.

Finally I do find the word ‘cheat’ in this context a little harsh, and wanted to clarify that Lloyd did comply with race requirements on the occasion quoted. This is after all a public forum and its not unknown for wrong information to be given.

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fair comment PeeJay:)

However there is a difference between accidentally and delibrately though. thats how I personally feel.

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Originally Posted by PeeJay

Finally I do find the word ‘cheat’ in this context a little harsh, and wanted to clarify that Lloyd did comply with race requirements on the occasion quoted. This is after all a public forum and its not unknown for wrong information to be given.

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Thanks for that, I wasn't planning on any finger pointing when I started the thread just a general rant/point, same aplies for Jebby.

You enter a race. There is a clear stipulation to carry certain equipment. In writing and verbally. You ingest the information and decide to ignore it.

What is the motivation? Bloody mindedness, ignorance or a desire to achieve an edge over a fellow competitor? Whatever it is, is that really an appropriate attitude to take to a fell race where competition, personal survival and comradely enjoyment of the wild is supposed to take place?

I agree with others. Thats not cheating. Thats being a selfish tw*t.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Running is about enjoying your self and there were times the at the race the other day I wasn't because of the cheats:mad: because they p!ss me off. trust would be fine if it wasn't so blatant.

I think you are getting pedantic now with the DNA etc even if it is toungue in cheek.

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Of course it was tongue in cheek, but ask yourself why you're really in running:

Is it to challenge yourself and to push yourself or purely to beat others?

If it's the latter, then carry on getting annoyed. If it's the former, I wouldn't let it get to you so much.

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Originally Posted by TheHeathens

Of course it was tongue in cheek, but ask yourself why you're really in running:

Is it to challenge yourself and to push yourself or purely to beat others?

If it's the latter, then carry on getting annoyed. If it's the former, I wouldn't let it get to you so much.

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Why do those who don't take kit when racing do it. That can't be for the challenge of racing because they are cheating. if it's for hill enjoyment then they can run any where any time.:confused:

It's there choice to race as it is mine but on a an eaqual footing

Enough said going out for a run;)

I think (?) we've established that not carrying kit makes very little difference to performance, especially given everyone's different sizes, weights, ability etc. A well designed and packed bum bag shouldn't impede the running mechanism, so what is it that irritates us all? For me it's the safety aspect; a runner with no kit, especially not even brought to the race is saying:

'I'm not self sufficient so if I have to stop, will another runner/marshal/MRT please rescue me',

and conversely,

'I cannot stop to help another runner because without kit I may get hypothermia and again have to be rescued myself'.

Selfish or what?

Following the OMM and to a lesser extent Welsh 1000, the eyes of the irrational media are slowly turning towards us. (let's run a sweepstake on how many inexperienced, ill equipped journalists are going to try and enter this year's OMM!:rolleyes:)
The sport doesn't need more rules, but a dose of common sense would help.

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Originally Posted by dominion

You sound like Max Mosely now, are you going to limit the amount spent on kit to prevent rich runners from buying ultra-lightweight, but still high quality kit?

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I was carrying ultra-lightweight kit, and it weighed about a pound.

To be quite frank having the rules apply what ever the conditions is unreasonable. The FRA in their frustration(at people not carrying kit in cold wet conditions) have said "right let's make them carry kit all the time so we don't have any problems."

So we end up carrying kit on a roasting day, for no reason at all. In fact it could be argued that the extra weight carried, could hasten dehydration by making us sweat faster/longer.

So the rules are present whether I like them or not. Therefore they should be enforced for everyone. Having a Salter scale on a table beside the funnel and then weighing every bum-bag, is a practical way of enforcing them.

"Pop it on the scale mate, right that's ok.....Nexxtttt!


P.s Re F1: I would abolish all the regulations on technology in cars. The sport is corrupt because of them and nothing ever happens........(merry where's that tune again).

I have followed fell runners who have def not carried kit

There are a lot out there who put nowt in it. You can clearly see that to carry full kit your bumbag should be pretty full. In fact i struggle to zip mine up.
You see runners with a pete bland bumbag thats flat, empty.
They are the ones that piss me off.

The saddleworth races had a more strict kit check Ian than at edale.

Personally I know that if i fall even on a hot day i have all my gear and will hopefully be okay until help arrives.

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Originally Posted by PeeJay

As an organiser, the last thing I wish to do is lay the law down. I expect runners to use a little common sense and carry what they feel is necessary for themselves, subject to the requirements on the day. One thing that does p… me off however is when runners turn up without kit at any time of the year. Running is all about enjoyment in a relaxed atmosphere and I wouldn’t go down the route of enforced kit checks for the majority of events, but hasten to add there are times when it may be necessary.

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Some good points made on this thread but PeeJay sums up my view. It would be good if all organisers took this approach.

Safety and the fear of litigation are of course prominent in any organiser's mind but lets not forget that this is supposed to be an adventurous sport where we travel light and fast. When the amount of kit stipulated is too much for a PB bumbag then that's not fellrunning in my view.

I am not a cheat - I carry the kit when told to but some races are off the agenda for me simply because the kit requirements are completely OTT... Anyone for a spot of heavily-laden fellwalking...? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

To be quite frank having the rules apply what ever the conditions is unreasonable. The FRA in their frustration(at people not carrying kit in cold wet conditions) have said "right let's make them carry kit all the time so we don't have any problems."

So we end up carrying kit on a roasting day, for no reason at all.

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Don't blame the FRA!

Kit Requirements are only mandatory at Cat A Long & Medium Races - Kinder Trog was a BL.

In addition, FRA rules stipulate only windproofs.

The notice at registration saying the kit requirements were as per FRA rules wasn't correct.

Cheating is the word for it if everyone's expected to carry stipulated gear - whether it's FRA policy or at the stipulation of the RO. I've seen people DQ'd on the OMM for failing a finish-line kit check and full kit is something that's adhered too.
Whatever the safety aspects, surely the ethos of fellrunning is such that a level playing field and sportsmanship are still values that we all aspire too when we enter a race?

If I was running in one of these races, I'd be carrying about 3 stone more than most of you anyway so 1lb really wouldn't be any hardship! :p

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Originally Posted by Duncan

Cheating is the word for it if everyone's expected to carry stipulated gear - whether it's FRA policy or at the stipulation of the RO. I've seen people DQ'd on the OMM for failing a finish-line kit check and full kit is something that's adhered too.
Whatever the safety aspects, surely the ethos of fellrunning is such that a level playing field and sportsmanship are still values that we all aspire too when we enter a race?

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Absolutely. And i enjoyed the Roots Manuva. Haven't heard that for ages!

It's not up to the RO to enforce the kit check, it's all to do with respect, personal honour and sportsmanship. If the rules state you carry the kit then man up and carry it - if you see someone racing without the kit call them a disrespectful, dishonourable cheating c*nt as loud as you can so everyone hears and kick them up the ass :p

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Originally Posted by daz h

There are a lot out there who put nowt in it. You can clearly see that to carry full kit your bumbag should be pretty full. In fact i struggle to zip mine up.
You see runners with a pete bland bumbag thats flat, empty.

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Rubbish - you can carry full FRA spec (windproof) kit and have a bumbag which looks pretty empty and is very light - just buy Montane featherlight pertex top and trousers. Both pack into stuff sacs which are about the size of an apple.

Great on a nice day, but not so good if the weather turns shite!

at the end of the day (or the race) rules are rules. if you choose to break them and get caught then its your own fault no matter how strongly you disagree with them in the first instance.
i was barred from running with my dog at wharfedale..he'd done it the year before and nobody said anything. this year they did. they said it was the rule. i could have ignored it but that would have been blatantly wrong.
i guess if you dont like the rules go do something else

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

A bit of rant here.

An old topic but it really does p!ss me off. The Race Organisor of today's race KT (which was run really well) stipulated the the kit required to do this race, saying there would be a kit check at the end. Maybe the kit list was a little harsh but thats up to the RO and he has put the time an effort in to organise the event so I happy to respect it and take it.

I know of three runners who took no kit (well one had an Ipod) and saw many runners with just a windproof, no map, no compass, no waterproofs, No w/pants , No scruples, no respect. In otherwords they cheated. They cheated themselves and all the runners who came in behind them who followed the rules. It show HUGE disrespect to the RO to blatantly cheat. Yes cheat I'll say it again because that what you are....:mad:

this could be helped by RO actually doing a kit check and DISQ any runners who don't carry kit because they will keep doing it until they caught.

Sorry for that

I hope you all enjoy your sunny weekend:)

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I see where your coming from but can't help feeling that your getting a bit too worked up about it - I would let them 'cheat themselves' as you put it and concentrate on your own run and enjoy it. In the past this is what I have done, perhaps if I was running to a higher level where the margins are smaller then it would make me angry - personally I don't see the point in getting stressed about decisions that other people make...I just worry about enjoying my time running.....

Interesting debate, there was an issue at last years UTMB regarding the winner.

Re Killian Jornet,

Here's the press releases:

http://www.ultratrailmb.com/page.php?page=CP2008

Here they are as PDF's, as you can see their is various references to protests.

http://www.ultratrailmb.com/documents/cp_utmb_saturday_30_august_2008_gb.pdf

http://www.ultratrailmb.com/documents/cp_utmb_sunday_31_august_2008_gb.pdf

It's unclear if he did carry the required gear, some day his support carried it, but also what about the record now, as they say his actions were 'not in the spirit of the event', so by using pacers he set an incredible record. It seems a bit harsh to ask runners to try to beat this record using harsher guidelines.

The guy is clearly class, and regardless of what he carried or got paced he still covered that terrain in an unbelievable time, but it will be interesting to see if they redo the record.

Agreed Coops...I rarely let it bother me. But. There is a wider angle to cover here. What we all take for granted as 'freedom' to run hangs by a thread so thin most of us will never see it.
But just imagine for a moment if the situation at OMM last year had turned sour with deaths to competitors...and it turned out those competitors had not followed kit compliance. Can you imagine how the media outcry would have become deafening? Can you imagine the subsequent ramping up of insurance and pressure on RO's?? Such things could squeeze the life out of our little sport.

So when a runner decides not to carry mandatory kit, its not just cheating. Its deliberately putting the future of the sport at risk.

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

So when a runner decides not to carry mandatory kit, its not just cheating. Its deliberately putting the future of the sport at risk.

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As I said in earlier posts - playing into the hands of the media and SELFISH.

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Originally Posted by No map, no compass

Rubbish - you can carry full FRA spec (windproof) kit and have a bumbag which looks pretty empty and is very light - just buy Montane featherlight pertex top and trousers. Both pack into stuff sacs which are about the size of an apple.

Great on a nice day, but not so good if the weather turns shite!

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if thats all you carry good luck when you fall on a NICE DAY

define nice day on the fells ????
pertex top , ffs:confused:
i wouldnt rely on one of those to wipe my arse

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Originally Posted by daz h

if thats all you carry good luck when you fall on a NICE DAY

define nice day on the fells ????
pertex top , ffs:confused:
i wouldnt rely on one of those to wipe my arse

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Its what most people are carrying mate, unless the RO tells them otherwise!

Lets face it, if you are running in shorts and a vest in a cool wind and fall badly out of sight of other runners, even full waterproofs ain't going to stop you getting hypothermia. You would need to be carrying a thermal top and leggings of some sort (plus hat and gloves, which are not mandatory under FRA rules), so basically most runners in most fell races would be f****d.

Don't come on all high and mighty. All I am saying is that lots of runners who appear to have very little in their bumbags could be complying with the rules, which is what this thread is about. If you want to carry more kit than is required by the RO that is fine, but don't slag other people off who are not actually cheating.

If you think the FRA kit requirements are too lax then get on the committee and get the rules changed. But just remember that to be truly "safe" then we would all need to carry the sort of clothes specified for mountain marathons, and I don't think you will find many fellrunners who want to be lugging that sort of gear around the average fell race.

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Originally Posted by No map, no compass

Lets face it, if you are running in shorts and a vest in a cool wind and fall badly out of sight of other runners, even full waterproofs ain't going to stop you getting hypothermia. You would need to be carrying a thermal top and leggings of some sort (plus hat and gloves, which are not mandatory under FRA rules), so basically most runners in most fell races would be f****d.

Don't come on all high and mighty. All I am saying is that lots of runners who appear to have very little in their bumbags could be complying with the rules, which is what this thread is about. If you want to carry more kit than is required by the RO that is fine, but don't slag other people off who are not actually cheating.

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This thread was started to talk about those runners who didn't carry the kit not those who didn't appear to carry the kit.

Check my original post. there were 3 runners who had NO kit at all and one who told me he only had a pertex top and that was just around me.

I also thought Perhaps wrongly that full body cover when requested included Hats and Gloves. :confused:

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

I also thought Perhaps wrongly that full body cover when requested included Hats and Gloves. :confused:

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I think it means gloves, but a hood will suffice, just head cover.

While I think proper waterproofs should be carried on big races I think there needs to be more personal responsibility from runners, being able to navigate, being able to decide when's enough and get off the hill. The kit regs won't keep an injured immobile runner alive for long, but they aren't intended to, but without asking runners to carry rucksacks nothing will help in such a situation, I think we carry enough but that people's skills and experience, more than equipment, is normally the problem.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

This thread was started to talk about those runners who didn't carry the kit not those who didn't appear to carry the kit.

Check my original post. there were 3 runners who had NO kit at all and one who told me he only had a pertex top and that was just around me.

I also thought Perhaps wrongly that full body cover when requested included Hats and Gloves. :confused:

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Not carrying any kit is bloody ridiculous, particularly on a Long!

But Daz was complaining about people who's bumbags were not as full as his, which is different.

FRA rules are:

9 EQUIPMENT
Competitors should arrive at races prepared to carry any or all of the following equipment:
a) Windproof whole body cover.
b) Other body cover appropriate for the weather conditions.
c) Map and compass suitable for navigating the course.
d) Whistle.
e) Emergency food (long races).

These requirements constitute "best practice" and are mandatory at all Category A Long and Medium races.

However any race organiser is free to impose additional safety requirements (e.g. waterproof as distinct from windproof whole body cover) and competitors must be prepared to accept such requirements as a condition of race entry.

In the event of settled fine weather, confirmed by a local weather report, the organiser may decide to waive some of the above requirements for races of other categories.

So no hat and gloves needed unless the RO says so! I have to say that I almost always take hat and gloves unless it is ludicrously hot and I need to make room for water.

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Originally Posted by daz h

pertex top , ffs:confused:
i wouldnt rely on one of those to wipe my arse

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You are probably right? Too smooth, not enough friction. Never tried though but I am guessing you have as you sound the expert :confused:

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Originally Posted by No map, no compass

Not carrying any kit is bloody ridiculous, particularly on a Long!

9 EQUIPMENT
Competitors should arrive at races prepared to carry any or all of the following equipment:
a) Windproof whole body cover.
b) Other body cover appropriate for the weather conditions.
c) Map and compass suitable for navigating the course.
d) Whistle.
e) Emergency food (long races).

These requirements constitute "best practice" and are mandatory at all Category A Long and Medium races.

However any race organiser is free to impose additional safety requirements (e.g. waterproof as distinct from windproof whole body cover) and competitors must be prepared to accept such requirements as a condition of race entry.

In the event of settled fine weather, confirmed by a local weather report, the organiser may decide to waive some of the above requirements for races of other categories.

So no hat and gloves needed unless the RO says so! I have to say that I almost always take hat and gloves unless it is ludicrously hot and I need to make room for water.

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thanks for that NMNC

Must admit I had always assumed full body cover included your hands so if kit is required I take gloves (although not windproof ones). Full face mask anyone :)

On the whole though I think most of us know what is a reasonable interpretation of the rules and / or organisers stipulations.

Surely it's black and white... Rules is Rules and if you're breaking them you're a cheat regardless of whether you're at the front, back or middle of the pack.

Even if the rules of a race seem ridiculous to you that's not your decision to take.

If an RO says to carry a soft toy, by all means have a rant and moan but, if you go to the start-line without Garfield or similar, you should be DQ'd.