Bike Racing

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Originally Posted by Marco

And this is what I wrote on the 19th of September 2023, please read it as it looks like you've only read the first 13 words of the second paragraph and then stopped


That is deeply disrespectful to the likes of Ayuso, Landa, Mas and Vlasov, who all finished within 8 minutes of the leader after almost 77 hours of racing. In a previous era one, two, or even three of them would have finished on the podium. The likes of Merckx, Hinault and Fignon won grant tours with winning margins of over 10 minutes.

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I read it all Marco. I can imagine you have forgot more about bike racing than I have ever known, so I don't disagree lightly and I always read you words.

That's why I am surprised at the position you have taken because I've read what you have said prior to 19th September and this was a bit out of the blue.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I read it all Marco. I can imagine you have forgot more about bike racing than I have ever known, so I don't disagree lightly and I always read you words.

That's why I am surprised at the position you have taken because I've read what you have said prior to 19th September and this was a bit out of the blue.

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And here is what I said on the 29th of July 2023 ...

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Originally Posted by Marco

Not for me; the Tour de France has left me with a bad feeling that sport-enhancing-chemicals (drugs) are influencing the results again

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https://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/show...e-Racing/page6

Marco come on pal.

In May - you thought Evanpoel was going to turn the Giro in to a procession.

Roglic was in that Giro and won it.

Was that "deeply disrespectful" to Roglic, Thomas, Almeida...oh and wasn't Vlasov in there?

In July you mentioned the current 3 truly great Grand Tour winners which I took to mean Vingegaard, Pogacar and Evenepoel from the ages you gave.
You missed out Roglic - he's won 4 and had some podiums and had to depart when in contention. Was that deeply disrespectful?

Roglic only lost the TdF because of an incredible TT by Pogacar - the sort of performance that raised eyebrows this year in the TdF TT.
Are there question marks over that TT?

Pogacar, following his wrist injury you told us we wouldn't know if it would be career threatening until next year.
You felt it would ruin his TdF chances.
But you make a judge on the Vingegaard TT Performance against a Pogacar you'd previously written off.

So I'm puzzled, but I'll leave it there.

And this is what I said on the 9th May-2023

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Originally Posted by Marco

I think it's Evenepoel's to lose. The fact he's lost the lead today is not of concern; it just means his team haven't got to chase.

Looking down the standings, it's not that strong a field for a race of this stature. Whilst I think Tao could improve on his current position, I think the win is beyond him. Ineos are no longer a really top team, and they seem to have two leaders rather than one undisputed leader. The route doesn't look that difficult either and, sorry to say it Graham, there is a distinct possibility of it becoming a parade for Evenepoel.

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And on the subject of Evenepoel on the 12th May 2023

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Originally Posted by Marco

I don't think he's the finished article, and I don't think he's as good as Tadej Pogačar was before his crash, but based on the today's result, where he finished top of the contenders, I think he's pretty determined to win the Giro and it's up to the others to try and beat him.

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Evenepoel, not Evanpoel, withdrew from the Giro whilst leading it because he'd tested positive for Covid-19. Roglic did not beat him, Evenepoel left the race. What I did not say, which would have been deeply disrespectful was:

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I look through the rest and they are just not up to the job of team leader and only seem capable of winning a proper mountain stage from a breakaway.

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I missed out Roglič because I don't believe he is a truly great Grand Tour winner. In the Giro Thomas lost two of his most important teammates; Ganna with Covid-19, and Tao GH with a fractured hip. Despite this Roglič only won by a few seconds ahead of Thomas, who I also did not refer to as a truly great Grand Tour winner.

Roglič lost the Tour a few years ago because he had a bad day at the time-trial, whilst Pogačar had a good day.

History has shown us that a wrist injury can be career threatening in cycling, and coming in the spring it was always going to disrupt his chances in the Tour. As it turned out, it doesn't seem to have had much effect on him and Pogačar's Tour de France time-trial was bordering on suspicious when compared to all the good riders behind who were tightly packed. When Vingegaard then posted a time 1 min 38 quicker still I can't call it anything less than suspicious.

You can't see the inconsistencies?

You were concerned about Vingegaard being a doper on the basis of a direct comparison with another's performance who you had already written off for the season.

You name 3 exceptional GT riders and include Evenepoel on the basis of one win, only one completion until last week, but don't include Roglic, 4 times GT winner, GT podium finisher, won 20 Grand Tour Stages, Dauphine. Paris-Nice; 12 x Stage races in total.
I think this is his 7th season and he's also won an Olympic Gold and a few one day classics.
You call me deeply disrespectful.

19/7
In years to come this will be seen as a golden age for stage racing; enjoy what you're seeing now, as it could be another 50 years before we get an era this good again.
29/7
Not for me; the Tour de France has left me with a bad feeling that sport-enhancing-chemicals (drugs) are influencing the results again

10 days - that puts Sunak's U-Turn in to some perspective.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

You can't see the inconsistencies?

You were concerned about Vingegaard being a doper on the basis of a direct comparison with another's performance who you had already written off for the season.

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No. I raised seven 'points of concern' about riders from the yellow and black team. You have, repeatedly, chosen to focus on just one of them.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

You name 3 exceptional GT riders and include Evenepoel on the basis of one win, only one completion until last week, but don't include Roglic, 4 times GT winner, GT podium finisher, won 20 Grand Tour Stages, Dauphine. Paris-Nice; 12 x Stage races in total.
I think this is his 7th season and he's also won an Olympic Gold and a few one day classics.

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This is professional cycling, not racing numbers. A rider doesn't become great by the number of wins, it's the manner in which they win that counts more.

Laurent Fignon is credited with only three grand tours, but he is considered one of the greats. The reason for this is partially because in the 1984 Tour he beat Bernard Hinault (one of the greats) by 10 mins 32 secs, and Greg Lemond (a three time winner of the Tour) by 11 mins 46 secs. He won five stages, two of them solo wins on mountain stages whilst wearing the leader jersey. Graham will have a word for it, I'd probably describe it as 'pure class'.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

You call me deeply disrespectful.

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Yes. You said "I look through the rest and they are just not up to the job of team leader". Of the other team leaders, Ayuso finished 4th, Mas 6th, and Vlasov 7th. In a field of 176 riders in 22 teams there are 22 team leaders. Finishing 4th, 2 mins and 10 secs behind Roglič, is not a bad performance, and saying that someone is 'not up to the job' for doing so is deeply disrespectful.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

19/7
In years to come this will be seen as a golden age for stage racing; enjoy what you're seeing now, as it could be another 50 years before we get an era this good again.
29/7
Not for me; the Tour de France has left me with a bad feeling that sport-enhancing-chemicals (drugs) are influencing the results again

10 days - that puts Sunak's U-Turn in to some perspective.

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I said that this was a golden age for stage racing, because it is. I never said it was a golden age for clean racing.

You have taken taken my words from the 29th July out of context. I was stating that I would not be entering a competition to pick the leading places in the Vuelta; I was not saying that I would not be watching some of the race.

The only U-Turn is in your imagination

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Originally Posted by Marco

No. I raised seven 'points of concern' about riders from the yellow and black team. You have, repeatedly, chosen to focus on just one of them.



This is professional cycling, not racing numbers. A rider doesn't become great by the number of wins, it's the manner in which they win that counts more.

Laurent Fignon is credited with only three grand tours, but he is considered one of the greats. The reason for this is partially because in the 1984 Tour he beat Bernard Hinault (one of the greats) by 10 mins 32 secs, and Greg Lemond (a three time winner of the Tour) by 11 mins 46 secs. He won five stages, two of them solo wins on mountain stages whilst wearing the leader jersey. Graham will have a word for it, I'd probably describe it as 'pure class'.



Yes. You said "I look through the rest and they are just not up to the job of team leader". Of the other team leaders, Ayuso finished 4th, Mas 6th, and Vlasov 7th. In a field of 176 riders in 22 teams there are 22 team leaders. Finishing 4th, 2 mins and 10 secs behind Roglič, is not a bad performance, and saying that someone is 'not up to the job' for doing so is deeply disrespectful.



I said that this was a golden age for stage racing, because it is. I never said it was a golden age for clean racing.

You have taken taken my words from the 29th July out of context. I was stating that I would not be entering a competition to pick the leading places in the Vuelta; I was not saying that I would not be watching some of the race.

The only U-Turn is in your imagination

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You raised 7, I've dealt with all of them with one exception over a series of posts but you've chosen not to recognise that. I'm not asking you to agree, but I have commented on them.

Fignon - moot - we are talking now - current crop - you can't recognise Roglic and placed Evenepoel ahead of him as a Grand Tour rider.
In 10 years time that might stand up to scrutiny. It doesn't currently.

"That 1-2-3 didn't surprise me in the context of the Tourmalet stage because the depth wasn't there at this Vuelta with Evanepoel out of the picture.
I look through the rest and they are just not up to the job of team leader and only seem capable of winning a proper mountain stage from a breakaway."

Here's my full quote, which as you can see dealt with one of your 7 (the 1-2-3 issue). Out of Mas, Ayuso and Vlasoz I suspect only Ayuso was satisfied with his overall performance and he was joint team leader and I think you had something to say about that somewhere but never mind.
I didn't name them, you did, but overall I was reflecting on the overall standard and looking a t the 22 team leaders realistically how many of them had GC ambitions? 10 maybe?

By the way, I didn't take your words from 29th out of context. It had nothing to do with whether you were going to take part in Velogames.
The context I was showing was you went from a Golden Age for Stage racing to doping in 10 days. That's quite a leap.

And this is what I said four hours ago ...

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Originally Posted by Marco

I said that this was a golden age for stage racing, because it is. I never said it was a golden age for clean racing.

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I know - but it seems a bit odd. I couldn't describe something as a golden age if I suspected it of being ruined by doping.
Never mind - I think our positions have been done to death.

Ooooh Graham, get a bottle of something fizzy cracked open, as Mark Cavendish has postponed his retirement for another year! ;)