Bike Racing

[Witton Park]

The point I am trying to make is this current period is unusual. In the past, there have been periods where one rider, such as Hinault, was so much better than the rest that they won pretty much won every stage race they entered (barring injury/illness).

There were other periods when there was no outstanding talent, and it was wide open (I'm thinking of 2011 after Bradley Wiggins crashed out).

The current time is not like either of these. For the first time in around 50 years we have three truly great grand tour winners all competing at the same time, and they are 23,24 and 26 years old. Talented as Pidcock is, it's going to be very hard for him (or anyone else for that matter) to beat these three.

In years to come this will be seen as a golden age for stage racing; enjoy what you're seeing now, as it could be another 50 years before we get an era this good again.

Yes and 2 of the 3 truly great grand tour winners both rocked up for the same team at the Vuelta and their only realistic rival looked like he'd been nobbled.

I'm more suspicious of what happened to Evanpoel. I'm surprised you aren't.

As for Pogacar at the TdF, I did make the point at the time that his Spring cost him a serious tilt at the TdF because he was up against a truly great grand tour winner and him being 98% wasn't enough.

[Marco]

I'm more suspicious of what happened to Evanpoel. I'm surprised you aren't.

Evenepoel had a bad day. The difference is, however, that either Evenepoel, or his director in the team car, is very intelligent. Instead of losing 3-4 minutes, and still being a threat, Evenepoel chose to have an easier day and lose a huge amount of time. By no longer being a threat to the GC leaders he was allowed to get into breaks and win stages.

Proof of this tactical genius is that he changed tack completely mid-race and won the Mountains category, the Combative category, and had Kaden Groves failed to finish he would have won the Points category too. He also won three stages, had three second places, and gained more publicity for his team than any squad other than the yellow and black one.

As for Pogacar at the TdF, I did make the point at the time that his Spring cost him a serious tilt at the TdF because he was up against a truly great grand tour winner and him being 98% wasn't enough.

I might have agreed with you about Pogačar before the time-trial, but I'm now firmly in agreement with L'Equipe - and they started the Tour de France in 1903 and have been following it ever since.

[Witton Park]

Evenepoel had a bad day. The difference is, however, that either Evenepoel, or his director in the team car, is very intelligent. Instead of losing 3-4 minutes, and still being a threat, Evenepoel chose to have an easier day and lose a huge amount of time. By no longer being a threat to the GC leaders he was allowed to get into breaks and win stages.

Proof of this tactical genius is that he changed tack completely mid-race and won the Mountains category, the Combative category, and had Kaden Groves failed to finish he would have won the Points category too. He also won three stages, had three second places, and gained more publicity for his team than any squad other than the yellow and black one.



I might have agreed with you about Pogačar before the time-trial, but I'm now firmly in agreement with L'Equipe - and they started the Tour de France in 1903 and have been following it ever since.

I haven't seen that either Evenepoel or his director have acknowledged such genius, more that it was assumed by followers of the sport and pundits.
Have they come out with such an admission?
I do see it as a likely conclusion and the doubt I have is about when he started to ship time, it was on the Aubisque which isn't the toughest climb and was only 50km in. It also seemed incredible that Almeida took such a big hit as well without LJ even trying that hard and their other main rider Soler also had a below par day.

Funnily enough considering the matter at hand, the day after what Evanepoel did put me in mind of Landis

A still maintain Pogacar was under-prepared and rode recklessly early on in the TdF. I expect we will see a different Pogacar next year.

I don't think the sport is helped at the moment by a couple of teams having so many riders that would be main GC in other teams.
I suppose Sky started that.
But for GC contenders these days you are looking at riders from only a few teams.

[Marco]

I haven't seen that either Evenepoel or his director have acknowledged such genius, more that it was assumed by followers of the sport and pundits.
Have they come out with such an admission?

I rarely read the cycling media, as it doesn't say much that I can't deduce from watching the highlights. The people in the cars are often ex riders, and some of them are very good tactically. The facts are: Evenepoel changed his objectives mid-way through the race, and he finished up with the best Vuelta, and the most amount of coverage, outside the top three. Compare that to the invisible man, Thomas.

I do see it as a likely conclusion and the doubt I have is about when he started to ship time, it was on the Aubisque which isn't the toughest climb and was only 50km in. It also seemed incredible that Almeida took such a big hit as well without LJ even trying that hard and their other main rider Soler also had a below par day.

I've ridden the Aubisque from the same side used in this year's Vuelta twice; once on my own, and once in a group of ex-racing cyclists. I narrowly lost the sprint at the top by half a wheel to a former international rider. I can tell you that a bad day on that is going to lose a lot of time.

I was first to the top of the Tourmalet, also riding it in the same direction as this year's Vuelta, and over three minutes clear. I found it easier, as it suited me better.

To say the Aubisque "isn't the toughest climb" is doing it a dis-service. It's classified as an Esp climb, which is the toughest category there is. In running terms it's probably a bit like running up Snowdon. What you have to remember is that they'd already climbed a 3rd category climb, and had a 1st category and then an Esp category climb to finish on. This probably makes the stage compare to something a bit like the Peris horseshoe.

A mountainous stage with multiple big climbs is not that dissimilar, in terms of effort and overall tactics, to a fell race with multiple climbs. You can't win it on the first climb, but you can lose it

[SCOOT]

I rarely read the cycling media, as it doesn't say much that I can't deduce from watching the highlights. The people in the cars are often ex riders, and some of them are very good tactically. The facts are: Evenepoel changed his objectives mid-way through the race, and he finished up with the best Vuelta, and the most amount of coverage, outside the top three. Compare that to the invisible man, Thomas.



I've ridden the Aubisque from the same side used in this year's Vuelta twice; once on my own, and once in a group of ex-racing cyclists. I narrowly lost the sprint at the top by half a wheel to a former international rider. I can tell you that a bad day on that is going to lose a lot of time.

I was first to the top of the Tourmalet, also riding it in the same direction as this year's Vuelta, and over three minutes clear. I found it easier, as it suited me better.

To say the Aubisque "isn't the toughest climb" is doing it a dis-service. It's classified as an Esp climb, which is the toughest category there is. In running terms it's probably a bit like running up Snowdon. What you have to remember is that they'd already climbed a 3rd category climb, and had a 1st category and then an Esp category climb to finish on. This probably makes the stage compare to something a bit like the Peris horseshoe.

A mountainous stage with multiple big climbs is not that dissimilar, in terms of effort and overall tactics, to a fell race with multiple climbs. You can't win it on the first climb, but you can lose it

Ben Healey did in the Giro.

[Witton Park]

I rarely read the cycling media, as it doesn't say much that I can't deduce from watching the highlights. The people in the cars are often ex riders, and some of them are very good tactically. The facts are: Evenepoel changed his objectives mid-way through the race, and he finished up with the best Vuelta, and the most amount of coverage, outside the top three. Compare that to the invisible man, Thomas.



I've ridden the Aubisque from the same side used in this year's Vuelta twice; once on my own, and once in a group of ex-racing cyclists. I narrowly lost the sprint at the top by half a wheel to a former international rider. I can tell you that a bad day on that is going to lose a lot of time.

I was first to the top of the Tourmalet, also riding it in the same direction as this year's Vuelta, and over three minutes clear. I found it easier, as it suited me better.

To say the Aubisque "isn't the toughest climb" is doing it a dis-service. It's classified as an Esp climb, which is the toughest category there is. In running terms it's probably a bit like running up Snowdon. What you have to remember is that they'd already climbed a 3rd category climb, and had a 1st category and then an Esp category climb to finish on. This probably makes the stage compare to something a bit like the Peris horseshoe.

A mountainous stage with multiple big climbs is not that dissimilar, in terms of effort and overall tactics, to a fell race with multiple climbs. You can't win it on the first climb, but you can lose it

all fine, but you are losing sight of the issues here.

You are highlighting a 1-2-3 and seeing that as problematic and suggesting performance enhancement.

Who could have got among them on the day?

Well Evenepoel would have been the most likely. He wasn't there.

[Marco]

all fine, but you are losing sight of the issues here.

You are highlighting a 1-2-3 and seeing that as problematic and suggesting performance enhancement.

Who could have got among them on the day?

Well Evenepoel would have been the most likely. He wasn't there.

You've clearly made your mind up that there is "nothing to see here" and you are right, regardless of the evidence. I have stated something like six points of concern, which are not normal in professional cycling, and I can think of another two.

I had about 15 years of club cyclists telling me that I was wrong and that Armstrong was clean, as he wouldn't do drugs after having cancer etc. Time will tell, but there is a saying "When something seems too good to be true, it usually is"

[Witton Park]

No I wouldn't say I've made my mind up - that seems to be you. I was intrigued that you jumped to the conclusion you did due to a 1-2-3 on a Stage.
That 1-2-3 didn't surprise me in the context of the Tourmalet stage because the depth wasn't there at this Vuelta with Evanepoel out of the picture.
I look through the rest and they are just not up to the job of team leader and only seem capable of winning a proper mountain stage from a breakaway.

[Marco]

No I wouldn't say I've made my mind up - that seems to be you. I was intrigued that you jumped to the conclusion you did due to a 1-2-3 on a Stage.

And this is what I wrote on the 19th of September 2023, please read it as it looks like you've only read the first 13 words of the second paragraph and then stopped

Where do you want me to start?

Should I start with the 1-2-3 from a team on a road stage, something that I've never seen before in a grand tour? Or should I mention the second 1-2-3 from the same team a few days later?

Maybe I should mention the first 1-2-3 overall by a team in a grand tour since the 1928 Tour de France (I'm discounting the dodgy 1966 Vuelta, where only the Spanish Kas squad finished a full team amongst the 55 finishers, and put six riders in the top seven. [General Franco was still running a dictatorship at this time.]) Even Armstrong's Trek squad, who were doped up to their eyeballs, couldn't do a team 1-2-3.

It was probably the way three of their team waltzed off the front at will, making Evenepoel and Thomas (both grand tour winners), plus Ayuso, Landa, Mas and Vlasov, look like rubbish. Again and again.

They say it takes about two months to recover from a grand tour, so it is rare that a rider rides all three as the accumulated fatigue is so great. Kuss, however, rode all three and finished 14th, 12th and then 1st. Again, you can add that to the 'never seen before' list.

And then there is consistency. In clean racing riders have bad days, and in 2023 we've seen bad days from Pogačar, Evenepoel and Thomas (all grand tour winners). But one team doesn't seem to get bad days anymore

All in all, we have been seeing superhuman feats from the yellow and black team for two years. Not just one rider, but four with van Aert. And then you start to cast your mind to the last time you saw superhuman feats on a bike, and how that ended ...

That 1-2-3 didn't surprise me in the context of the Tourmalet stage because the depth wasn't there at this Vuelta with Evanepoel out of the picture.
I look through the rest and they are just not up to the job of team leader and only seem capable of winning a proper mountain stage from a breakaway.

That is deeply disrespectful to the likes of Ayuso, Landa, Mas and Vlasov, who all finished within 8 minutes of the leader after almost 77 hours of racing. In a previous era one, two, or even three of them would have finished on the podium. The likes of Merckx, Hinault and Fignon won grant tours with winning margins of over 10 minutes.

[Graham Breeze]

Older readers will remember:

The 1994 Fleche Wallonne when Gewiss-Ballan had a 1-2-3 with Argentin, Berzin and Furlan.

Under the photo in one of Graham Watson's books he wrote "There was talk of their dominance not being entirely natural...".

And then in 1996 three Mapei riders led Paris-Roubaix for 86K and then Museeuw, Bortolami and Tafi slowly circled the velodrome while Patrick Lefevere decided the finishing order.

So I cannot get too excited about the antics of Jumbo-Visma. It is, after all, merely a matter of degree.