Coronavirus

One thing that alarms me when I read views from medical "experts".... (and I must admit that a lot of these can be sensationalised in the press... not to mention in the few political threads that I get involved in, I look at things very simply...)

I'm concerned that the medical experts seem to think we have an infinite time-line for crushing out the virus, and that infinite funds are available to the NHS.... neither of these are correct... we can't just shut the country down until 2021/2022/2025/insert applicable date... it may sound callous but there has to be an economy to come back to. And my basic understanding is that funding for the NHS generally comes through taxes, which are generally provided by the private sector, which is effectively at a standstill.

The parts of the economy that pay the tax that pays for the NHS you mean?
Is football necessary ? No. But it pays a lot of direct and indirect tax.

I often wonder whether those in public sector know where the money comes from that pays them, and how hard it is to make it.

The key workers are those that make the money that everyone else wants to spend.
Any fool can spend it, on an ever growing list of good causes, it takes no skill or compassion, only more money. Sadly it is mostly fools promoted to positions that do spend it, which is why our services are so shockingly inefficient. There’s no shortage of people willing to do public sector jobs: if only there was more money to spend.

I do agree as a society we throw too many serviceable things away.

I applaud resources such as freecycle that allows things to find new homes.
The preserve of rich countries.

In Portugal you see markets of people selling broken things found by bins.
Much of EU is desperately poor. Not least because of economic migration away.
Not that EU - or remainers give a fig.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

There is of course no such thing as fewer deaths, all deaths are just postponed - but give me and others a flatter curve and therefore delayed death please, if possible. The problem is the economic impact this will have. We have seen that many parts of the economy are in fact unnecessary, and bad for the planet as well - a simple example being the fast fashion trade. But this is a huge can of worms.

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Indeed Travs.
What we need are some brave moves now that the initial suppression has been achieved ( and I mean suppression of society). There should be enough data to allow a controlled and considered release from lockdown for lower risk groups. By that I mean healthy people under 45. Yes, a few deaths have occurred in that age range but probably no more than sporadic deaths from flu or other infectious diseases that we never normally hear about. A more gradual release for older age groups in tranches just to control the flow of new hospitalisations. But lets get the economy going again.
And lets STOP sending covid-19 cases to the hospitals...only use the Nightingales. We need hospitals to be covid free otherwise the death toll from untreated other diseases will be way higher that the covid death toll. There is also a growing understanding that hospitalisation does not really work anyway since there is no treatment. Those that need ventilating are probably not going to make it in any case...I have seen death rates ranging from 50% to 90% for those that go onto ventilation. Supported treatment at home may be a better way.

Spare a thought for us in the overlooked group, Wheeze.
Although I suspect you are increasingly one of them.

Never old enough to get a bus pass, or get our shopping delivered, or indeed get any advantage for years.
But old enough to be the last ones let out on your formula.
*sniff*

I read an article by an acute illness doctor saying that ventilators may even harm chances. So little we actually know for sure. On the last part I agree. But I assume it was considered before CMO made decisions. The days of fever hospitals all over again.

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Indeed Travs.
What we need are some brave moves now that the initial suppression has been achieved ( and I mean suppression of society). There should be enough data to allow a controlled and considered release from lockdown for lower risk groups. By that I mean healthy people under 45. Yes, a few deaths have occurred in that age range but probably no more than sporadic deaths from flu or other infectious diseases that we never normally hear about. A more gradual release for older age groups in tranches just to control the flow of new hospitalisations. But lets get the economy going again.
And lets STOP sending covid-19 cases to the hospitals...only use the Nightingales. We need hospitals to be covid free otherwise the death toll from untreated other diseases will be way higher that the covid death toll. There is also a growing understanding that hospitalisation does not really work anyway since there is no treatment. Those that need ventilating are probably not going to make it in any case...I have seen death rates ranging from 50% to 90% for those that go onto ventilation. Supported treatment at home may be a better way.

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Not overlooked. Just subject to controlled release. The idea is not to swamp the NHS with cases. What we do know is that chances of serious symptoms increase with age.

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Originally Posted by Oracle

The parts of the economy that pay the tax that pays for the NHS you mean?
Is football necessary ? No. But it pays a lot of direct and indirect tax.

I often wonder whether those in public sector know where the money comes from that pays them, and how hard it is to make it.

The key workers are those that make the money that everyone else wants to spend.
Any fool can spend it, on an ever growing list of good causes, it takes no skill or compassion, only more money. Sadly it is mostly fools promoted to positions that do spend it, which is why our services are so shockingly inefficient. There’s no shortage of people willing to do public sector jobs: if only there was more money to spend.

I do agree as a society we throw too many serviceable things away.

I applaud resources such as freecycle that allows things to find new homes.
The preserve of rich countries.

In Portugal you see markets of people selling broken things found by bins.
Much of EU is desperately poor. Not least because of economic migration away.
Not that EU - or remainers give a fig.

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Of course the public sector is funded by tax - but when the private sector becomes ill it provides them with health care without charge - up to the huge costs of organ transplants if necessary. Try that in the US. As to the wages nurses earn vs their level of experience/responsibility - it is a travesty. It is amazing how much money has appeared recently - the magic money tree does exist - austerity was a choice not a necessity. And badges to recognise the NHS's efforts - try paying bankers with badges.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

It is amazing how much money has appeared recently - the magic money tree does exist - austerity was a choice not a necessity. And badges to recognise the NHS's efforts - try paying bankers with badges.

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The money is being borrowed, it is not some reserve that is being drawn on. The OBR estimates that the deficit for the 2020/21 financial year will be £270 billion or 14% of GDP. Government's take such steps in times of grave national crisis like war or in this case, a pandemic.

How is this is going to be paid back? The private sector is being decimated, so will not be able to stump up the cash. So if Government income is reduced, then expenditure will have to do likewise. The austerity we have faced in the last ten years will seem like a walk in the park compared to what will have to come.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Of course the public sector is funded by tax - but when the private sector becomes ill it provides them with health care without charge - up to the huge costs of organ transplants if necessary. Try that in the US. As to the wages nurses earn vs their level of experience/responsibility - it is a travesty. It is amazing how much money has appeared recently - the magic money tree does exist - austerity was a choice not a necessity. And badges to recognise the NHS's efforts - try paying bankers with badges.

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I know i'm in for a lynching here, as anything in a negative light with regards to NHS/nurses wages is a bit of a hot subject...

But... I think nurses are aqeduately rewarded (financially) for the job they do. My opinion is that trainee/student nurses need no qualifications over and above, say a trainee engineer (arguably less in fact), and at that stage their salaries are low, as they are in all industries.

At the other end of the scale, I have a close relative who is a specialist nurse and she is well rewarded financially (and rightly so) for her fantastic ability, conduct and qualifications.

Working conditions, work-life balance, etc... now that's a different matter, and i'm no expert on it. We have an ongoing issue in our family which closely relates to the NHS, and safe to say this paints them in a very negative light regards to treatment of their employees...

Mike,I have no problem with the importance of a strong public sector.

What I do find offensive is the vilification of the private sector, or parts of it, all of which are needed to fund that cash guzzling monster.

Take the pharma industry: It has to make big profits to fund the hundreds of millions of cost of every successful drug. The scientists there are just as clever if not cleverer than doctors but they get none of the recognition or terms. Most pharma companies fail. The returns are so low now, the patents so short ,the cost so high that nobody wants to make originator product. Doctors contribution to it? Creaming the trials, whether or not the product works.

What I want is mutual respect. What we see is the mantra “ public sector good, nhs wonderful, private sector bad”

In fact it is worse amongst our liberal elite: “nhs wonderful. Private sector a parasite”. Reality is the public sector is the parasite on the goose that lays all the golden eggs. The private sector. No private sector, no money for anything.

They also omit to say that the NHS was privatised at inception by doctors, who stayed as contractors the day their “ mouths were stuffed with gold”. And then given a 30 percent pay rise by Blair, for losing, not gaining responsibility.

I see a public sector being creamed by those who complain it doesn’t have enough funds. No wonder.

We see war on company dividends ( ie pension savers, except you) for most compamies shut down by government.

Yet I have yet to see any offer of contribution from public sector many of whom sit at home on full Pay whilst private sector workers only get 80 percent up to 30000 and business owners have been absolutely shafted. All they get is loans.Even without employee costs they are haemorrhaging a fortune every week.

People like us have put in double the amount into pension funds but will get less than half out than the bloated public sector schemes.

I would like to believe we are all in it together if the entire public sector took the same 80 percent cut.
But nope. Private sector will pay for it all. Not a hint of belt tightening In public sector.

Your comment of undefunding of health? Paid for by what?
Business is already so tight, Most of us don’t want to start them again.
I will scream if I hear reference to German corporate tax. Those who say it know nothing about tax. Most businesses would be far better off under the German regime.
UK is far harsher certainly for young and struggling business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Of course the public sector is funded by tax - but when the private sector becomes ill it provides them with health care without charge - up to the huge costs of organ transplants if necessary. Try that in the US. As to the wages nurses earn vs their level of experience/responsibility - it is a travesty. It is amazing how much money has appeared recently - the magic money tree does exist - austerity was a choice not a necessity. And badges to recognise the NHS's efforts - try paying bankers with badges.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Of course the public sector is funded by tax - but when the private sector becomes ill it provides them with health care without charge - up to the huge costs of organ transplants if necessary. Try that in the US. As to the wages nurses earn vs their level of experience/responsibility - it is a travesty. It is amazing how much money has appeared recently - the magic money tree does exist - austerity was a choice not a necessity. And badges to recognise the NHS's efforts - try paying bankers with badges.

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Without charge?

You need to work out how much we actually pay in to the NHS. Per head of population you could get a pretty decent private policy which would probably include all the illness abroad cover as well.
Then we might get treated like customers instead of service users.