Maybe you should have a chat with Billy in the beer tent after the race...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by TimW
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Maybe you should have a chat with Billy in the beer tent after the race...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by TimW
I'm told it does add about 5 minutes. That said, no one is getting very near to Billys best time even if you add 5 minutes. Simon Booth got within seconds of the record a few years ago, on the old course. But Billy was always miles ahead in his races, often with no on running near him, and set the record in a spell where he also set Wasdale, Ennerdale and Bob Graham records - all whilst doing 2 hours plus per night hard training on the back of a days physical work, and a 16 round British Championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
I think the real question is how would Billy compare to "todays" runners if he got the easy racing season we now have, had the benefit of more informed training concepts than "get the miles in" and if he tapered for targetted races. My guess is he would blow them away.
There is no significant time difference between the new and old starts at Borrowdale. There is far greater difference caused by weather on the day, and individual route choices later on.
And btw, the Ennerdale record holder is Kenny Stuart, not Billy Bland:
http://www.lakelandclassicstrophy.org.uk/?page_id=11
The old Alfer is in !
(Could have sworn I said "Never again" last year !! :rolleyes: )
Should there not be a new record for the new course then?Quote:
Originally Posted by marrow
I agree with you that Billy's record is a class apart (besides Simon getting close in 1999) but how is anyone therefore ever going to beat it if the course is now longer? It was a hard enough record anyway!
It works the other way for they soon introduced a new record for the now shortened Duddon valley... I'm interested as to how the changes in routes affect the revised lakeland classic all-time points standings, Duddon had a 'standard' time of 3:00 with Borrowdale 2:50 but the two routes now produce very similar times, if anything Duddon being marginally faster.
In fairness I think Billy was informed of modern training methods but he refuted them. What he did worked for him, who's to say he'd have been any better with more 'thoughtful' or scientific (call it what you will) training? Maybe he would have been (scary thought) but not necessarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by marrow
A bold statement re course times, Chris! Has it been empirically tested? I guess from your statement you have checked and compared the routes - what are the stats? I can't be sure, but did Billy not have the Ennerdale record prior to Kenny, and was Kenny's record only a matter of seconds quicker?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisU
Tim, I agree with you - there should be a way of recognising the different courses per Duddon.
As to Billy's training, he won't be told, but I cannot see how a man could be performing at his best going into a long Lakeland Classic on the back of the heavy racing and training schedules he undertook.
It's always a problem, trying to compare a runner from one era with another more contemporary, and I appreciate that there can be a tendency to credit people with a reputation that can be confined to that era, but Billy's records are still standing at Borrowdale, Wasdale, and Bob Graham 27 years on, and plenty of good runners have had a go at them. I think there are some who were or are capable of taking his crown, but none has yet. Who knows what will happen this year? Not a lot I guess, given the clashing British race in Wales!!
Kenny Stuart was the same era as Billy and yet trained differently, more like a road runner (needless to say he became one...) which Billy (if you read FITC) disagreed with, saying think how much better he'd (Kenny) have been if he'd trained like he (Billy) did. He was probably the only guy ever to say Kenny didn't train hard enough! The two approaches were different yet yielded similarly brilliant results and I think it's hard to say either was right or wrong. Has no one ever ran well whilst putting in the mileage only to ease down and run worse? I certainly have, even though I do tend to respond better to 'Kenny's' type of training...Quote:
Originally Posted by marrow
As for the race at Y Garn deflecting from the quality at Borrowdale I doubt it'll make much difference, BD is probably the only race that gets a 'championship' standard field year in year out whether or not it actually is one.
So was the schedule of Billy's day so much heavier than the one of today? There was no English Championship back then, nor (seperate) LCT so I'm not so sure. What was the 16 race format? I heard certain classic races were always in it, am I right? Certainly beats the 4 race format of today, does anyone actually like this? :(
Must have taken my eye off the ball - failed to realise it was pre-entry only this year (doh!!).
It's not full yet is it? I know (now!) the the closing date for entires is 7th July....
If it is full I'd REALLY like a number if anyone's got one going ;) (just persuaded the wife and kids to join me this year and bought a big tent today :eek:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
A "Fellrunner of the Year" competition was introduced in 1972 and renamed the "British Fell Running Championship" in 1982. Over the years there have been various formats.
The 1981 events were:
Short: Pendle, Butter Crag, Meall An’t Suidhe, Burnsall, Blisco
Medium: Kentmere, Ben Lomond, Fairfield, Snowdon, Ben Nevis
Long: Welsh 1000m, Ennerdale, Wasdale, Borrowdale, Moffat
10 results counted and had to include 3 at each distance.
There was some variation in the races used but some of the races were used year after year.
The English Championship was first held in 1986.
Still room!Quote:
Originally Posted by stumpy
Quote:
Originally Posted by marrow
Thanks Marrow - best get myself a 1st class stamp as soon as the shops open! Me and Borrowdale have got unfinished business ;)
after reading this i entered on Monday and got my entry back accepted yesterday.
going to do a recce on Saturday morning and recce last bit of wasdale as well.
I have got the Pete Bland map for both so hope they are accurate. was thinking of stashing some water somewhere ready for wasdale. if it is hidden do you reckon it will be OK after a week to drink?
Sure it'll be safe. Let us all know where you plan to stash it and we'll check that it's not tampered with:p Honest;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Man from Del Monte
Have a good reccy and run at Wasdale.
Ha HaQuote:
Originally Posted by Storyteller
safely stashed. just got to remember where i left it now. had a good recce today. went up Bessyboots and was stood by the tarn looking for the trod when a runner went past. thanks to him off we went on the right path. we were just walking today. had lunch at Esk Hause then dropped down to Styhead pass then dropped back down to seathwaite and back to the cat at Rossthwaite. 12.5 miles according to the GPS.
having collywobbles over great gable. it must be some climb after skirting Kirk Fell.
Reccied the route on Saturday - it's quite tough. After the initial shock of Bessyboot, it's a nice long gradual climb up to Scafell Pike, although getting the best line to Esk Hause could be navigationally tricky in poor weather, with the various bumps of Glaramara all looking a bit similar, and finding the right path round Allen Crags.
At SP you might be pleasantly surprised to be all-but halfway round the route, distance-wise at least.
Lovely lope down the corridor route and then the killer climb up Gable - where we bumped into the Wasdale leaders.
Stopped off for a brew at Honister slate cafe and were amused to be told by the girls there that they couldn't give us tap water because 'it's straight off the fells, health and safety'.
Had a job getting the legs working again for the sting in the tail up Dale Head which will be a tester on the day, as will the descent down to the tarn. But it's at least grassy, after a fair bit of steep rocky stuff on the previous descents.
Navigation is unlikely to be a major issue to SP Zoot. I started at the back last year, and had lots and lots of people to follow! Can get quite entertaining after Green Gable when the clags down though :p
I can't get across for a recce. Hoping someone will wait for me!
yes it's a bit of a minefield is the old brandreth / grey knotts area isn't itQuote:
Originally Posted by Pudgy
but if you hit the style in the fence after Brandreth ok then hold a NNE line skirting westside of Grey Knotts, with the fence well off to your right, and swing further east as the slope down to honister steepens, you're not going to go far wrong.
Can we hold hands all the way round? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by skennaugh
Ha ha! Sounds good!Quote:
Originally Posted by jodg
I also heard non-English runners get free beer afterwards.
Oui? Tres bien!Quote:
Originally Posted by skennaugh
Naprawde? Bardzo dobrze! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
Hang on - IOM IS English.... :confused:
Lol!!Quote:
Originally Posted by zoothornrollo
Wha!!!???Quote:
Originally Posted by jodg
Careful... that's fighting talk where he comes from!!!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jodg
What's Manx for "Borrowdale recce" then? :p:DQuote:
Originally Posted by lantern rouge
Calling Manx men english has been known to cause nose bleeds!
May speak English, but call a Manxman (or woman) English at your peril... they are very proud to be Manx, and who wouldn't be? It's a great place with great people. On the other hand, I am proud to be English. Even if Steve knows what Manx for Borrowdale recce is, he probably couldn't spell it, and we couldn't pronounce it!
Borrowdale gow baght.
Nice one! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by skennaugh
What shoes shall we be sporting? Trail or full on fell?
Which camp site?
Can't wait!
as I don't have proper fell shoes, I went round the recce in Adidas Kanadia - the grip was fine, but then it was dry and we were taking the descents easy. As I've found before, main problem is that they don't hold the foot securely enough - specially when wet.Quote:
Originally Posted by skennaugh
I was thinking of getting a pair of Mucdroc 290s anyway and I think they'd be good for Borrowdale.
There's a lot of sharp rough gritstone and it looked like it could be murder with something like Mudclaws with very aggressive lugs catching and digging in.
There are also some steep grassy descents ~ Mudclaws for me, defo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
I too would be wearing mudclaws..........if I had an entry, missed the deadline by a day or so. Anyone got an entry they don't want/can't use?
I've done it in Mudclaw 330s and Mudroc 290s and will definitely be using the Mudclaws this year!
Mudclaws for me too 290's though as those 330's wrecked my feet again :(
who's staying for the party?
I'll be staying for the party, so long as I've found someone to keep an eye on (my) Emma for the duration of the race. Otherwise I'll have to go straight home:(.Quote:
Originally Posted by emmilou
I'm staying for a week! Can't wait!Quote:
Originally Posted by emmilou
Recce'd it with the Pony posse on Saturday.
Bloody 'ell it's a bit rough in places.. had a nasty fall and battered my knees coming off Scafell Pike. Suffering for it now (all over knackeredness), but should have recovered in time to get timed out at Honister! Actual running time to Honister was 4.22 according to DeeJay (so 8 minutes to spare), but I spent nearly as much time on my face!
Weather was pretty much 100% and the scenery gorgeous If the weather is as good on the day, we'll be in for a good 'un.