I thought that this forum might have been a Snowflake free zone but obviously not!
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I thought that this forum might have been a Snowflake free zone but obviously not!
Okay thats me out of this bullshit. Llani Boy is just a is coming across as an extreme right wing thug. This forum is like a (very) small microcosm of the country but with a disproportionate number of older white conservative, UKIP and by the looks of things Tommy Robinson male supporters and very few ‘snowflakes’ as LB puts it.
The by and large civilised chatting and debating with Witton Park and Muddy Retriever is ruined completely by the pie in the sky bollocks and mumbo jumbo of the Oracle, the weird stalking of CL, the plain dumb ignorance of Stagger and the odd nut job like Llani Boy
FRA forum, you’re fired
Bye bye
TBH I’m out too. As much down to the failure of others to criticise LBs post.
I didn’t expect much else from the Oracle of odious political zealotry. But others I’d hoped for something other than deflection it just bypassing it completely.
Context - read my whole post - May's deal would not deliver on the manifesto commitment of either Tory or Labour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossdog
There's not much point not holding EU membership, if you still have to apply all the rules and regs pertaining to trade.
Both parties have been elected on false promises at the General Election and the 30 or so MPs you refer to are amongst a minority in the Commons with SNP, Plaid, DUP, LibDem who are standing by their manifesto with respect to Brexit.
I think we all understand how the Tories are not upholding their manifesto and with every week that goes by they are chipping away a little more.
But perhaps it isn't so clear that Labour are, so here's a few snippets from the Labour manifesto.
"Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union."
It goes on to give detail about visas, work permits etc but that's out of the EEA in a nutshell.
"We will ensure proper transparency and parliamentary scrutiny of all future trade and investment deals."
"Through our Just Trading initiative launched in 2016, Labour will work with global trading partners to develop ‘best-in-class’ free trade and investment agreements that remove trade barriers."
"We will ensure that trade agreements cannot undermine human rights and labour standards."
"We will work with other WTO members to end the dumping of state-subsidised goods on our markets."
"Labour will develop the full range of trade remedies necessary to support key sectors affected by these unfair practices."
"Labour will champion the export interests of SMEs, ensuring all new trade agreements include a commitment to support their market access needs."
"Labour is committed to growing the digital economy and ensuring that trade agreements do not impede cross-border data flows"
"Labour will use trade negotiations to boost market access for British environmental goods and services"
"The UK's future prosperity depends on minimising tariff and non-tariff barriers that prevent us from exporting and creating the jobs and economic growth we need"
"Labour will set out our priorities in an International Trade White Paper to lead a national debate on the future of Britain's trade policy. We will ensure proper transparency and parliamentary scrutiny of all future trade and investment deals"
"We will ensure all future trade deals safeguard the right to regulate in the public interest and to protect public services."
Now I appreciate some might not understand how the Customs Union works, but all of the above one-liners are not compatible with being in the Customs Union.
and there is a clear lack of understanding of the implications. Those advocating a Customs Union don't seem to understand that it doesn't remove border friction.
This is from a BBC report on borders with the EU on the Turkey/Bulgaria border.
"Here though the delays are much longer" (than Norway/Sweden)
"Outside the single market, there's a need for all sorts of documentation, from export licences and invoices to transport permits.
That means huge queues of lorries are normal. A report prepared for the European Commission in 2014 suggested a waiting time of about three hours for lorries travelling from Turkey to Bulgaria.
But drivers hoping to cross the border say they often have to wait for more than 24 hours at busy times."
The proposers of a Customs Union seem to think this means free flow of vehicles at Dover, across the NI/Irish border etc.
It doesn't.
And surely the moral of the story of the last page or two is... is you want to remain friends with people, then don't discuss politics with them...
I recall playing for years for my sunday football team... best mates and people i'd played, drank, and (to our discredit) sometimes fought alongside, for many years... One day, for a variety of reasons, i decided for a change and joined another team, who happened to be ran by a couple of Sikh brothers, and had a healthy contingent of Sikh players... the tirade of abuse i received from my 'mates' for "playing for a paki" and "wearing a burka in your next match" was beyond ignorant, and although i'm still friends with most of them, i'll never see a few of them in the same way again...
Similar goes for this forum... Stolly has been on this forum much longer than me, and on the couple of very brief occasions we've crossed paths on the Haworth Hobble, has come across as a thoroughly decent chap... however, crying-off a running forum because of disagreement with the views of a minority of member's views (on a non-running subject) does smack of throwing a tantrum because people don't agree with them...
For my view on the Dianne Abbott matter... in my view she is an utterly abysmal politician with a wealth of crackpot views... any desire to see her used as "taget practice" would be solely based on that fact, and the fact that she is either black or female has absolutely nothing to do with it... i also fail to see how a light-hearted throwaway comment that an image of her could be used as target practice, means people advocate the murder of politicians... when i was a youth, i often had an Aston Villa poster strapped to my dartboard in the days after yet another derby thrashing. That doesn't in any way equate to me backing the actions of that tosser from Birmingham City running on the pitch and whacking Jack Grealish.
I'm a member of a couple of football and music forums (although this forum is by far my favourite and the one i use most). There are undoubtedly some ridiculous views held by 'leave voters' that do leave me scratching my head. However there is a general undertone across all forums that leave voters are stereotypically thick, ignorant and racist northerners... i find this equally ridiculous.
Right... i'm back off to the Today's Training thread...!
Excellent post Travs. You made many of the points I wanted to but put them better than I would have done.
Very well put Travs. I was considering saying something myself but you have said it so well, I have nothing to add. Chill everyone! The debate has been good and wholesome. Let's not abandon it.
If you mean by pie in the sky bollocks, the objective facts that remainers creeds are provably false!
Take the single market and customs union that have done nothing for the UK whatsoever , as proven in growth figures, and even Larry Elliot of your favoured Guardian agrees with that. So our trade figure growth to rest of world way out strips our EU growth, It helps German automakers and French farmers and that is about as far as it goes. The EU has no interest in liberalising areas we are strong.
Also the euro is indeed a massive failure of the EU as it was always destined to be. Yet another repeat of a failed experiment, that will be the undoing of Europe And whilst technical demonstration that it is on its last legs via "target2 , ecb issuer limits , and the doom loop of Italian bank collateral " is mumbo jumbo to most ( except the financially literate)
But even the most starry eyed remainers can engage with massive permanent youth unemployment and debt, in such as Italy and the impossibility of southern countries To get out of spiral decline. That is visible to all and is the cause of populism. Why are remainers so unconcerned? Why do they turn a blind eye to suffering?
As backdrop , The world is indeed sleepwalking into a catastrophe that will make 2007 seem like a walk in the park. Evidenced by US treasury maturity yields which are screaming red alert. That I accept is mumbo jumbo outside the financially literate. Tell me: how much notice did you have of Lehman? For those of us studying it , it was inevitable over two years before, and our comment was called "pie in the sky" then, until the day it happened. Gordon brown, Mervin king, IMF , even such as stiglitz and krugman were all asleep at the wheel. Intoxicated with heroin of cheap money.
Indeed Gordon brown relied on the artificial bubble to milk for his excessive spending, so he was never going to call out the fraud. When the financial cracks become a chasm, remember You heard it here first!
So Instead of insulting me, I suggest you read such as Hans Werner Sims in depth studies, of the catastrophe the euro has caused , or the myriad of economic commentators now repeating the assertions now they are considered mainstream. The euro is on life support, and Brussels understandably is keeping very quiet about it.
It seems to me from long experience the more ardent the remainers ( or indeed corbynista) the less informed they are about the things they seemingly support without question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Spot on Travs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
My final comment on the "target practice" is that if anyone is to be criticised it is the BBC and other news outlets who, in their eagerness to drop a few soldiers in the mire, broadcast the video in the first place rather than leave it on Facebook/Twitter/YouTube where most people including me would not have seen it.
I saw it as a few soldiers having a bit of fun in what is no doubt a stressful environment which, is what is was,and I viewed it in the same way.
Thug, nut job, come on lighten up folks!
I stand by everyone's rights to be offensive and offended. This is in the "down the pub" section, so in my view we all should be allowed to spout whatever ill-informed crap we like within normal legal boundaries. We can all then tell them that.
Back to Brexit. Did anyone hear the wireless this morning? Geoffrey Cox came on and said a few things regarding legal advice to the government. He was then followed by another Conservative (I forget who) who proceeded to say that that was all rubbish and Teresa May can completely ignore parliament.
Oh Dear.
I never joined the CCF at my school and so I have no experience of military discipline, although I believe some posters have served in the armed forces, but it seems to me that if I were being paid by the state to learn to shoot straight and kill people I might be allowed a little slack - presumably a picture of, say, Osama Bin Laden would have been more acceptable?
Over many years I have formed a view of posters, not least through meeting them at, would-you-believe-it? fell races - and people are what they are and entitled to hold the beliefs they hold.
However the benefit of meeting people in the flesh is that you know their real name and may also know what they do for a living and that provides context for what they may say on here. That is not to say that a ditch-digger cannot have a valid view on macro-economics but well...I put great store on people's socio-economic and occupational backgrounds in underpinning their view of the world. So I don't think Forum posters should be anonymous.
I also suspect that the intensity of people logging on is higher when there is a frisson of debate and that nobody logs onto a dull forum - the right shoes for the PPP race anyone? - so people should not get over-excited when views are expressed that they don't like very much. They can be ignored.
Of the newer posters I find the views of Oracle quite interesting. I think he/she is closer to Cassandra than the Oracle at Delphi who was gnomic whereas our Oracle verges on the hysterical and I note that as time has gone on the ability to use spellcheck appears to have been lost; but I do read what Oracle has to say.
Anyway the Forum is a broad church and hopefully will survive the current withdrawal of one of its longest contributors. I say "current" because we have been here before.
And tomorrow is another day and the Three Peaks Race is nearly here!
You should cut and paste this in to the "Today's Joke" thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
:D
Ah well, my modesty is only exceeded by my fine sense of irony.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
[QUOTE=Graham Breeze;648550]Oh Dear.
I never joined the CCF at my school and so I have no experience of military discipline, although I believe some posters have served in the armed forces, but it seems to me that if I were being paid by the state to learn to shoot straight and kill people I might be allowed a little slack - presumably a picture of, say, Osama Bin Laden would have been more acceptable?
Is that because he was a muslim, black or just male? Careful GB or you will be put in the same "extreme right wing thug" and "nut job" categories as me!
Well if you say these things LB, some people will judge you by them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
I agree it would help if we had actually met one another on this thread (apart from Oracle of course ;)). That way we could see that at least on the face of it we're all reasonably normal people.
We are fell runners, so not normal reasonable people.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Brexit reminds me of a day long ago I was driving down the A1 observing a couple in a car ahead who were clearly in disagreement about whether to leave it at a slip road, and from gesticulation it was getting heated.
Instead of making the choice,either left onto the slip road, or right to stay, eventually the car hit the nose of the crash barrier dividing the two possibilities, with a big dent in the bumper. I last saw the two of them in even more heated argument.
Like choosing a river bank brexit is a choice, an average position will not do. Most of our commons want to remain, but do not want the blame for revoking article 50, that they all hope the "other side" will do which they can attack whilst being secretly glad.. They all regard the EU deal as bad, so none want to accept it, and they know that single market and customs union are a different form of remain..So they know the only valid options are no deal or stay. So they make no choice at all,wanting to blame the others for the lack of progress.
In short they are all chicken.
EU blinks first!!
I think they have just cottoned on: parliament is too stupid to be intimidated or act rationally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
https://www.facebook.com/56627974049...0898793029245/
Says it all......
Yes, this is something that I have been thinking about. On this forum, WP has pointed out that EU membership has not been helpful to the industry in which he works. And a few weeks ago I heard on the radio that 92% of people in the fishing industry voted Leave (I don't know where that statistic came from, and I haven't managed to work out why 8% of our fishermen/women voted Remain :p). On the other hand, universities (the sector where I work) have benefited hugely from Freedom of Movement and from financial input from the EU; apparently there do exist academics who voted Leave, but I haven't actually met any.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Indeed. I do find Oracle's ranting rather tiresome, but I still read it to give an insight into how the other half thinks. As an academic, I obviously prefer WP's reasoned essays, although I don't always have the patience to read every word. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Illustrating that a high IQ correlates to an ability to reach a sensible referendum judgment? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Anyway anecdote alert! My youngest brother and wife (both Cambridge PhDs) have worked at the University of Pamplona for 30 years and their four older children all have first degrees from that University. The four are "Spanish" having been born there but all four have spent time in England to enhance their post-first degree education achieving a Cambridge PhD (he now works in Seattle), a UCL Masters (she now works in the UK Treasury) & etc. Amongst the rancour, ignorance,...consuming Brexit it is a comfort to me that able young people from Spain have been (clearly at some personal cost and inconvenience) welcomed by fine English Universities to complete their education.
But then, I voted remain.
I think they just put the ball back into our court.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
I see Teresa May and Jeremy Corbyn's talks have broken down. Apparently Teresa May was unwilling to change the wording of her deal at all! I wonder what she was hoping for.
This is the same Teresa May who delighted in the fact that she is a "bloody difficult woman". Her own party have seen that this is true. So have the DUP. And now it's Labour's turn to learn it first hand. It makes you wonder if she's the best person to compromise.
Maybe she's playing a long game and waiting until the brexiteers all die off. People say politics these days is like Game of Thrones. It certainly is in that it seems like we'll never reach an end.
Unwilling to change wording of "her" deal? First off It isn't her deal. It is an EU attempt at a humiliation, that they refuse to change. One of several essential things wrong with it is the forced annexation of Northern Ireland into a permanent customs union AKA backstop with or without the uk mainland.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Since being in a customs union prevents trade deals elsewhere, it isn't Brexit. So Theresa May refusing to yield to a Labour determined not to Brexit in other than name is hardly her being difficult , she is simply accepting the instruction to Brexit which Labour and starmer have never done.
It is fascinating that presentation of uncomfortable facts on the provable dysfunction of the EU are called "rants" by others , simply because the recipient does not like the information presented, It is equally fascinating that none have so far contested or are able to contest what was said, which are just uncomfortable truths that defy EU dogma.
E.g. Fact: membership of single market and customs union did not boost our trade, and the growth in EU trade has substantially lagged behind growth in our trade with the rest of the world. EU is a laggard in growth. Just look up the numbers. Those are critical facts, not rants.
So those who proclaim armageddon on trade outside EU are clearly misinformed. E.g. Fact The cost of many of our food imports are higher than they would be if we were not shackled to the EU.
Avoiding competition is why EU want us permanently shackled In the customs union, EU is terrified of competition. These are not rants. They do not need to be reasoned. They are simply true however uncomfortable they are for remainers.
It is true that universities are a Cinderella sector, that live unaffected by most of the realities or problems of life in a commercial world. They say they are funded by EU money, which is patently ridiculous. It is our money handed back less an EU effective tax of 50 percent. Universities ate never very bright in confronting objective reality because They never have to earn the money that pays for them. That is why they don't care, which is a product not of intelligence, but of self interest Many of the increasing cacophony of voices that proclaim the unsustainability of the euro are in the university sector. But because they are slow witted, it took universities a long time to catch up with what was accepted elsewhere a long time before.
So here another uncomfortable fact.
If the university system of EU is so fine, why do none of its universities outside Britain appear on the top international rankings of universities? My answer: Like everything else EU , they are flabby , dysfunctional and inefficient. So Mr Breeze. Perhaps as a sycophant you can answer why the university of Pamplona, is not leading the way? Could it be the apparent limitations of the people you note are there? Or could it be just too much sun and sangria?
Following on with a related question: why do none of the Internet giants often born in universities come from EU? So the EU is not so marvellous then, nor are the universities.
I'll leave it to others to check the rest of the "facts" within your latest rant Oracle. I'd like to start with the first one. You say the EU refuses to change the deal. And yet, here's Michel Barnier just the other day publicly saying the EU would be open to a customs union:
"We are ready to be even more ambitious should the U.K.'s red-lines evolve. For instance, we are open to work on the principle of a permanent customs union should the U.K. decide to take this path."
Link: https://www.politico.eu/article/mich...k-brexit-deal/
4:15 in the morning! Having trouble sleeping?
https://www.timeshighereducation.com...#survey-answer
Quick fact check for top universities in Europe, doesn't seem to totally agree with Oracle's last post....
https://www.timeshighereducation.com...asc/cols/stats
Top ranking world universities.
https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/pol...-explained.pdf
One of first documents explaining how universities are funded. Not quite 'our money handed back less an EU effective tax of 50 percent'
Somewhat surprising then that such intelligent people haven’t worked out that the financial input they receive from the EU is simply our own money paid back. Outside the EU our own Government could replicate all the grants the EU provides and still have money left over for other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Noel, why wouldn't Barnier be open to the idea of the UK being stuck in customs unions with the EU without a say in it? That is the whole point of the backstop in the first place. It is there to prevent the UK exiting the customs union and making trade deal with the rest of the world. They are scared stiff that the UK will make a success of Brexit and other countries will want to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
So if we are now turning to Barnier and say we would like to be permanent shackled to the EU, he's hardly going to refuse. They used to say that Margaret Thatcher was lucky with her enemies in Scargill, Galtieri etc but I bet Barnier and Juncker can't believe their luck with their adversary. What a catastrophically incompetent Government and mutton headed parliament.
With respect ian, it is the universities themselves not me , who made the farcical argument that they would be Badly affected by Brexit , they referred to exclusion from EU funding which is only our own money returned less a cut. Argue with them, not me, it's not my argument it is theirs. Most of project fear is hogwash.
The top universities, MIT, Stanford, imperial etc prosper from wide international collaboration not restricted to EU. It extends to quasi academia too. Before EU we (indeed I ) did collaborative projects through ESA. It is only that prick Barnier who in a hissyfit seems to think all collaboration should halt
International rankings prove what I said is true: There is nothing in EU in the top 20 other than UK. Just as EU economies lag, so do their universities. Switzerland is represented, so are Singapore and China.
Far from EU universities spawning big internet giants, EU is now doing what it can to discourage not encourage Them.. The copyright law is crazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biaraV2
But then as I explained the customs union is a far worse form of remain. That keeps us under EU control without a seat at the table, Hardly surprising Barnier wants it. They are terrified we prosper outside the EU.
I really do wish the electorate would study the consequence of some of these treaties .Customs union is the polar opposite of Brexit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
The EU refuses to change the Withdrawal Agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
The Customs Union is what comes in the political declaration and the EU has said for a number of weeks that they could consider changing elements of that, as long as they do not contradict anything in the WA.
The PD is not binding. The WA is binding.
Going back to the Labour issues with May (and I hate May's arrangement) Labour want a Customs Union, quite why I know not, but lets run with it.
If they sign off on May's deal, it does allow a CU at the end of the process. It also allows a FTA. It even allows rejoining. It doesn't allow no deal.
Labour want the CU enshrined in the Withdrawal Act ie UK law, as they fear the Future Declaration isn't legally binding.
There are several issues with this Labour request.
1. Article 50 was enshrined in UK law with a date to leave of 29/3/19 and was overruled with absolute disregard to Parliament. The idea that adding permanent membership of a CU to the Withdrawal Act makes it binding is clearly just political posturing.
It would only be binding if the Government at the time wanted to pursue it.
2. Let's assume it carried weight in law. Labour have said they want a Customs Union where they have a seat at the table when deals are done.
That isn't how the CU works.
Will the EU agree to such a deal when we are out? They have indicated not. The words were something like, they best the UK could hope for would be a seat in the corridor outside.
So Labour are suggesting we enshrine in law a Custom Union when all the indications are that their version of a Customs Union would not be negotiable with the EU.
3. Such a move would be an attempt to bind the hands of a future Govt, a principal that Parliament avoids. All other treaties and agreements have a get out.
My instinct tells me that Labour are seeking for the CU to be "firmed up" as they have no confidence in winning the next General Election themselves.
https://www.topuniversities.com/univ...-rankings/2019Quote:
Originally Posted by biaraV2
Here's another oneIan with only 1 non UK EU Uni creeping in to the top 50.
I think it does agree with Oracle's post.
Whichever table you look at, the EU doesn't have one in the top 30.
If you then look at the stats on Erasmus, the UK success is that more students from the EU want to come here as part of the scheme (between 2 and 3 times as many) as ours go the other way.
I'm not sure that the Uni sector is that relevant to the Brexit debate anyway. There's lots of collaboration goes on worldwide, in our outside of the EU and particularly because of the high regard which our establishments are held in, that will continue.
No, the UK Government provides grants for work done in the UK, whereas the EU provides grants for projects involving collaboration between several countries. Of course everyone recognises that some of the money has come from us in the first place: we put money into the EU pot, and we get money out of it. As WP points out, collaboration with EU isn't going to suddenly stop when we leave, but it is going to be a lot harder for our academics to get involved in these multi-national projects than if we were still members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Regarding the observation that UK universities are doing much better in the league tables than those of any other EU country: that is one of the reasons that we have benefited so much from EU freedom of movement. Students and researchers from all over Europe come to our universities, paying their student fees and making their contributions to our economy. When we are out of the EU, they may as well go to the USA or anywhere else, especially with the Home Office's attitude of making it as hard as possible to get visas (which has already been making it difficult to recruit overseas students from non-EU countries).
It is relevant in that it is another important sector the EU Is doing very badly.
The EU considers itself as a leading global player, where in reality it is a world laggard.
It is important because the academic sector is supposed to be the forerunner of industrial technical success. But in the internet and tech sectors generally EU is nowhere. It is scandalous that it's best institution is not even top 30
The irony is the remainers of the uk university sector claim that their success relies on EU. So remainers are not so bright if they are oblivious to their own failure in world terms, or if they believe they need life support from ranking back markers in the EU.
Where the outward looking Imperial (if you have not guessed was one of my alma maters) has gone from strength to strength by focussing on a world stage. It wasn't always this way in Europe. Pre EU I took a couple of bright postgrad employees to a high tech business of mine from the then prestigious parisian "ecole de mines" which had similarities with Imperial college back then. But under EU ecole de mines has relegated to ranking obscurity.
From which I conclude the EU is far too inward looking, contemplating its navel whilst the world moves on. Just like the supposedly precious EU single market and customs union claim they foster success. Yet the figures show in growth terms the opposite is true. Our trade beyond EU grows a lot faster, despite the EU shackles.
EU is not a success. And the Euro a massive failure. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the EU is useful for, other than flushing our money away, and tying our hands behind our backs. EU is terrified that we will be a roaring success when free of their dead weight, which is what they won't let go of the backstop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
You still injured Oracle? If we organise a whip round how much would it cost to get you fixed up privately? Obviously it would be on the condition you’d go out running all day and not posting on this thread . . .
If I wasn't injured I assure you, I'd be out running instead. That's despite expensive private treatment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
Fascinating how the thread treats injection of factual comment: So what's your take DT on how badly EU performs on academia as well as world trade? So what's the EU for? Why do we need to be or even want to be part of it?
I have no idea on how well or how badly the EU or anywhere else for that matter performs ‘on academia’, or world trade. Does it sound terrible to say I don’t care? I’ve also got bigger things to worry about than what the EU is for, or if we need or want to be part of it
When you say the EU universities are doing so badly, I notice you're not counting the two top universities. Both of these are in the EU. It's funny - your "us and them" attitude seems to be affecting your perception.
Granted Tup. Well wishes for your recovery. I do wonder why you want to depress yourself in a thread like this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup