He loves Britain!
He wants to leave the EU!
Quote:
I live in Portugal
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He loves Britain!
He wants to leave the EU!
Quote:
I live in Portugal
You've heard Oracle's answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Which makes full and complete sense of having a points-based immigration system, like our government have introduced, which encourages only highskilled workers. You know, doctors and the like.
He won't get this, because he has no sense of irony.
You really are not very bright are you Dave?
Provided we have a policy to train the number we need, there isn’t a problem, or contradiction. It allows for exchange. I deplore Australia’s nett theft of some types of professionals.
Actually there isnt a problem on numbers even. Just stop the ones screwing the system by retiring at 59 on full pension, you know, like most doctors. nurses and teachers and make them work to retirement age unless a proper actuarial reduction at value is made. *huge*. We would have 10 percent more!
Also charge pro rata on time served for the eyewatering cost of tax payer funded training if they choose to go to Australia. or go private. So we have the funds to train more.
What we must stop is the mass flow that leaves other countries without the young people needed to build a future, or pay for their old people, also causing accommodation price problems here, and increasing derelict property abroad. Mostly trash the euro, and EU so it equalizes the problem causing the flow.
I love Europe and care about Europeans, Which is why I hate the euro and EU.
The goal is to make everywhere in Europe equally financially attractive. Not to cope with the fact that the euro prevent that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
The argument on free trade is questionable. Let's put it this way. Anti-dumping duty was widely welcomed when Steel industry was hard hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
It's seen as a strategic industry.
The real question was should we be most worried about steel imports from China, or from Eastern Europe, where we couldn't take any protective measures to protect a strategic industry.
There you go, Marco, two straightforward and clear answers to your question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
That didn’t mention free movement at all, which is what he asked about.
But then, you accept any answer as straightforward and clear provided it doesn’t offend your credo whether or not it addresses the question.
My answer was comprehensive, straightforward and clear, Economic migration is a problem for both emigrant and immigrant states. A symptom of a problem, not a cure of one. Free trade does not need free movement. That is EU dogma bollox.
Bye bye, have a nice break.
Off you toddle.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Nos da!
WP, re worries about steel imports from Eastern Europe or China, short answer is both as they do not adhere to EU practice thru production. Result DEATH.
Oracle, various problems with cheap foreign labour, they send the money they earn back to their own country. and plan for the future e.g. QS with multinat uk co, with child, maternity ;eave, spends it in home country while building house in home country with hubby, then says ahm no comin back, nothing to do with leaving their country bereft of resource/talent just working the system as per the norm in the competitive world (including public service employees). Out for a run with my pal a couple of years ago, he's a blether, talks to any & everyone, we see a group of guys in hi viz around the elec pylons, turns out they are a group of phillipinos, they come over work for a few months, live in caravans, head home taking what ever money they can. I think this is a terrible way to live, away from family for months at a time, taking money out our system, oh but its capitalism, the system you love, oh and I'm 58 and retired.
A snappy and to the point summary of how ‘well’ Boris & Co and handled coronavirus so far...... https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status...930758656?s=21
I agree but disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph
We also resulted in death when our industry was developing and so we developed our processes and working practices. A balance has to be struck to allow these industries overseas to also develop, because not having them will also result in death. It's getting the balance and so tariffs can be seen as a restriction of trade, but also a rebalancing.
They can also be very political. In footwear for example, tariffs and anti-dumping duties introduced on China in 1997 were a political move to buy support from some southern EU nations and some of those tariffs are still in place.
If you retired early having saved enough more power to you, so did I
If you are a public sector worker the numbers might interest you. Here based on a typical nurse or teacher earning £40000 to retire on pension of £20000 early. By retiring 10 years early you not only take £200000 more out, you also failed to make 10 years contributions of another £100000.
That is 300000 you never paid, me the taxpayer has to. Just to get you to 67. It is sheer greed.
Chances are you barely paid that in tax in your life.
Add in the 20 years after that at 200000 costs 400000 and allowing for index linking in browns disastrous savings rate destruction.,a 20000 pension actually costs another 800000. In short if you have taken more from the system than you ever paid, you are a parasite. Added to Half the population that pays no meaningful tax, or are net recipients.
Multiply that by 5 million public sector and we have a trillion pound problem.
No wonder governments are short of money.Public sector are screwing it.
All because brown destroyed return.
Most teachers nurses and doctors retire at similar age. ( doctors pensions outrageous)
They are not the worst offenders. Firefighters, police and MPs are worse.
The rest of us get screwed in the zero sum game. Your pound taken out, is one less for those who earned your salary.
As for “ my “ capitalism, that is the world we live in. You personally decide it every time you buy cheapest , or want better, fuelling the enterprise to fill demand. You buy from the enterprise that sells it better and cheaper. It is how the world is including you. I inhabit that world, and must survive in it.
The pretence of alternative is intellectual hogwash that beggared billions of Russians , east Europeans, Venezuelans, Chinese before capitalism and so on.
It is hypocrisy of those who are funded by capitalism to pretend they are not part of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph
Firefighters, police , nurses, teachers.
all so evil and greedy!
Draining the economy!
Selfish!
What an utter twonk.
I feel it’s maybe time to move this thread on a little
If future insults, sorry posts, could be based on thoughts about what’s likely to happen over the coming months regarding the effect of the virus on the country, plus the realistic chance of a vaccine being found, that would be lovely
Thanks
I think:
We will need to finesse local lockdown performance.
We will need to perfect track and trace.
We will need to embed differential protectionism ranging from free living for no risk groups up to enhanced shielding for vulnerable groups.
We will need to return to and maintain a hygiene first life style (no spitting in public etc just like in the days of TB).
Meanwhile there will be variable and unpredictable developments in diagnosis, treatment and vaccination that we should not obsess about. Most of what will work will be down to lifestyle adaptations.
I think we will find ourselves just proceeding to unlock until restrictions become voluntary guidance.
I'm not sure we will need a vaccine.
Corona is serious. Sharing Who pays will become the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
I agree. about move on
I posted this : it would explain
A lot about what happened. No answers
My opinion on it is indicated here.
Something else accounts for country variation.
Tokyo has 30 million people all using the underground.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...CXjrvJB_te5zC4
(the nationalist fascist overtone in Japan is s pm comment is scary.)
Hong Kong has almost no cases
People like to blame Boris , but in realily something else accounts for the figures.
I could also suggest German corona “success ” has nothing to do with measures they took: more to do with the fact that Germany equipped Chinese manufacturing over the last two decades. A large flow of people between. So they have been more exposed to milder coronas. One of Germany’s now economic woes is China now copies not buys their stuff.
It might explain Portugal too. Here we have many Chinese shops and population where in U.K. late shops are often Pakistani . So a transit to and from China, topping up antibodies And transmitting mild coronas On every trip.
Is it why Spain suffered more? Less immunity than Portugal?
I’d be interested in miket views on above.
I am reminded of history, many indigenous amazon tribes were wiped out by conquistadores, not by their swords but by European pathogens to which they had no immunity. they probably blamed their leaders too for things outside control
That is the problem we have in north Europe. Less immunity even than Germany.
Understanding the problem is key to solution.
Vaccines take a very long time to test.
Here's something which perhaps all could agree on.
The NHS is 75 today.
In normal times it would be dealing with 1 million cases every 36 hours. All free at the point of contact.
Every day nurses, doctors and health care workers put their lives on the line in order to help the sick, infirm and disabled.
In England over 180 deaths in the health service have been attributed to covid-19.
Poor mental health, including stress and burnout, is one of the key factors for staff leaving the NHS. Last year 40% of staff reported feeling unwell from work-related stress. Staff earling less than £24,000, who make up 40% of NHS employees, are particulalrly hard-hit by work-related health conditions.
NHS staff have been working incredibly hard over these last few months and perhaps deserve some support and encouragement, as well as appreciation when they themselves fall ill or feel the need to retire.
Well done NHS!
Agreed Dave
NHS staff have saved my life at least once in the last two years and possibly twice
There appears to be a huge amount we don’t understand still about C-19. Why some countries seem to have been much more badly affected than us is a big part of that. I’ve never been optimistic about a vaccine either plus I guess it’s possible to develop something only for the virus to have mutated and the vaccine to become redundant
Remember that you workers don't negotiate their own pensions.
They only work to the schemes currently set up.
I'm in a superannuation not by choice. It was mandatory when I took the job.
It’s all testing DT. The time and populations needed are very long, even when a vaccine exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
A little history. When Jenner had evidence that cowpox provided resistance to small pox, he gave , I believe his gardener a dose of smallpox to test the theory! In the modern day regulators will rightly not allow potential lethal pathogen infections to test the effectiveness.
So even after safety trials, for efficacy the testing has to be passive and conducted across representative ranges of race , age etc. In the US the trial sizes are horrendous, here not much better, then a placebo group are tested against the vaccine, and then waiting for a statistically significant exposure on a virus that is low incidence anyway. The press have way underestimated it. Only then should quantity be ramped up, normally it take years. Same problem with the exvivo tests : they were not tested properly and many don’t work well or at all.
So the testing numbers are largely illusion.
Mutation is then a problem as you say,
Reality is the general population are going to have to get on with it. Because for working age the risk is low. There can be no assurance of safety. Many more will die from hardship caused by economic fall out than did from the disease. We are headed into a financial catastrophe.
I also think we have had higher exposure / immunity than numbers imply, for reasons yet to be decided.
I’m attacking unfunded early retirement. Granting of early retirement to teachers is not automatic but averages show it is nearly always accepted. It shouldn’t be till normal age. We cannot afford it. Doctors retiree early they say because they have maxed out pension. You’ve seen the numbers, we cannot afford it. Nurses retire early then come back as contractors, we end up paying twice. It is still a choice to retire. Police and firefighters retire unjustifiably early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
MPs are worst at screwing , second only to euro MPs.
Every time any government tries to make them affordable ( they are not at current savings rates) the unions and members kick up a stink preventing change. They don’t have to. It’s a choice to demand £3 so the rest of us payers only get 1
You’ve seen the numbers above stagger. It means most early retirees get more out than they ever pay tax, making them nett parasites.
Not acceptable. It’s unfair the entire public sector or most, don’t pay nett tax because of screwing pensions so well.
The Pension agreements rely on savings ( bond) rates and death ages that no longer exist,
In post covid world in which interest rates of minus 2 !! are postulated to screw pension savers even more, the whole public sector pensions needs scrapping and replacing, with those earned. All must take a hit.
That means as your savings are effectively earning guaranteed 10 percent or more to allow for inflation proofing.
Mine are earning minus 2 to pay for yours.
I am forced into equities which the government have trashed by asking companies to pay for COVID It cannot go on.
The government is stealing from private sector to give to public.
Covid will destroy private sector pensions.
On the 75th anniversary of the NHS, he calls nurses parasites.
I think that says it all, really. Doesn't it?
It is your tax if you pay any, paying for those who take a pension and nhs contractor rates at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
It is the ones who take the piss that are the problem. Retiring at 59 on that pension already
cost the exchequer more than they ever pay in tax.
Why should they be allowed to be 100 percent tax avoiders?
I don’t do cult NHS. They do a job they are well paid to do, sometimes well, too often badly, frequently negligently, always expensively.
You’re talking about civil service, the nhs and the teachers pensions schemes, all of which are unfunded and paid straight out of the exchequer. But you’re missing the point as to why they’re unfunded. They’re unfunded because the government want it that way otherwise they would have to actually pay contributions and fund the schemes which, from a treasury point of view, means paying out earlier and building up funds and reserves to pay the pensions. The government prefers them to be unfunded duh brainQuote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
All pension schemes offer early retirement, usually for a reduced pension to reflect that they’ll be paying for a bit longer. That’s whether it’s private or public. The government should offer good pension schemes to its staff so as to set the bar for private businesses and it would be grossly unfair if they didn’t offer early retirement for public servants when everyone else can have the option to retire early
Remember as employees members of the nhs pay large personal contributions to their pensions and the employers cost is deemed part of their earnings, albeit in their case the employers cost is actually deferred to retirement
I have no idea what point you’re trying to make but what you’ve said so far is utter bollocks
Facts. Check the numbers. I presented them.
No mystery in the point I make,
The scheme way over pay in the context of current bond rates and age expectation,
Combined with that the deduction for retiring early ( if any, teachers often fudge it) is far too small for actuarial risk.
The problem is almost all teachers nurses and doctors and ALL firemen and police retire early.
The ACTUAL cost of retiring early costs more than the tax they pay in a life time.
The multiplier used by Hmrc for fund value is also a fiddle. I can’t put enough in yo buy a doctors pension even if I hade the cash. Not even close.
The only reason MPs don’t do anything is they screw the system more.
There is a trillion overhang in these schemes.
300 million in the mp scheme alone.
I dislike the ponzi, but I wish they had invested it if only to prove the numbers I quote , the system. must be abolished. It isn’t fit for purpose
All pensions must be based on what you save and market return. So all are affected by economic shocks.
The private sector pensions are devastated. They have a triple whammy.
The rules need changing we cannot pay it. Not post covid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellbeast
On the 75th anniversary of the NHS he called nurses parasites.
And stated that most nurses and teaches earned £40,000. I wish I Fu*cking had. I get a pension of £700/month - greedy arn't I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Oracle tax paid doesn’t pay for occupational pensions. Contributions do. The government doesn’t pay any though so have to pay the cost, over and above employee contributions, as the pensions are paid. They then get some tax back of the pension which is paid paye
I am reluctant to express support lest anyone think I am you (no doubt you have the same fear) but my wife was a teacher, many of my family work for the NHS and I retired from a plc aged 50: and I think you actually know what you are talking about, which is quite refreshing really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellbeast
Thanks MattPo. Didn't know you are EX-NHS. Thank you.
Unlike some, I'm glad my taxes fund the NHS, and it makes me most unhappy that staff retire early for mental health and other health issues. A decent pension was always seen as a reward for public service and reflecting that commitment.
It seems some people fail to understand this. But then psychopaths wouldn't.
You carry on your misinformation, I said those who screw the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Here’s your nhs. I could cite many examples , here is one. I have many.
My father in law had chest pains. It took weeks to bully Gps into an appointment ( they were too busy on little earners) , eventually he got a hospital referral. After a week in hospital undergoing tests , he got discharged , a snotty nurse more or less saying they couldn’t find anything, so he was imagining it. He was tying up a bed.
With no help he was taken home by 85 year old wife. He collapsed on the drive.
He was helped by kindly neighbours,
3 days later he died at home of terminal lung cancer.
The b*strds missed it.
Want another?
My mother had a lump. It took an age to get a referral, and it was over a month before she was called back for a follow up, at which time they diagnosed carcinomatosis. The kindly consultant had been on holiday a month between.
Want another? My wife got a double collis fracture. A and E counter staff had feet up , telling her to enter details in a machine.she was white with pain and incoherent. We sat three hours as 3 ambulance crews came Past sat outside, laughing and joking with nothing to do. Would they give her a painkiller? Or check that circulation was there? No. Not their job.
Callous b*strds
Want another?
There are more.
So that’s your crappy NHS: not surprising that an organisation founded on the greed of doctors demanding 3 days pay to see anyone, and the only way they would join nhs is to “ stuff their mouths with gold” check it out. Nothing has changed. They now fill books with so many routine appointments, they don’t have to see ill ones, forced to A and E.
So no, I would rather have an efficient private service thanks, instead of one run by the staff for the benefit of staff like this.
My GP almost cost me a leg because of doing earners instead of working.
They are not the angels they self promote
You've called nurses, doctors, firemen and techers parasites and now you're calling doctors callous B/stards.
well done you, you should be proud of yourself.
Graham .Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
You retired whilst bond rates were 6 percent. So your pension is possible, when converted to annuity so long ago.
They are no longer possible since brown changed monetary policy. Check annuity rates.since 2008. The world has changed. Pensions must change..
But even you have left a problem. As far as I am aware, the biggest problem of BG and BT is the massive potential liability of underfunded pensions.
The essence is. Early retirement may be in the rules, the rules need rewriting because they are no longer possible.
The one who sent my father in law home, and left my mother to die whilst he went on holiday , the ambulance men who wouldn’t treat my wife were just that. The one who refused me a needed blood test,which could have cost a leg, when giving me one just a check up a week before was negligent. And callous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Read what I say. Stop misrepresenting or making generic specific cases.
I said some good, often poor, too often negligent.
They are not heroes. They are ordinary people.
The nhs founded because of greed of doctors is history.
You said nurses were parasites.
I never said anything generically about nurses and you know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
I said ones who retire early and take both a pension and pay as contractors , indeed any who retire so early they take out more than they ever pay in tax. That makes them parasites not contributors. They take out not put in. Simples.
I said the doctors behaviour with my mother and father in law were callous. They were.
I did not say all doctors were callous and you know it.
Your statements are always mendacious.
The NHS has 5 billion negligence claims against it. That’s how good they are.
But stupid cult nhs refuses to accept its fallibility.
I believe it is the 72nd anniversary of the NHS not the 75th.
My personal experience of the NHS has been excellent, 2 recent instances in my immediate family where early GP diagnosis, hospital referral and admission caught things just in time. I do appreciate not everyone is so lucky I'm sure much could be improved.
Which is a fairer reflection.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfella
Some good, too often bad, too frequently negligent.
People’s views are coloured by experience. You saw mine.
on the 75th anniversary of the foundation of the NHS (which took three years to actually establish)
Oracle called nurses parasites.
Because of their pensions. Which he doesn't understand.
Doesn't respond to Fellbeast, Graham Breeze or MattPro, who pointed this out to him.
Because he can't work out the difference between an organisation and those who work within it.
But goes on to call doctors B/Stards.
Happy birthday NHS!
All these facts and not even the age of the NHS is correct I am certain you will find it ws established on 5 July 1948 making it 72 NOT 75.