UKA British Fell & Hill Relays

As ever, you're quite correct Iain, it did say that (for ALL legs) checkpoints must be visited in numerical order in the pre-race info. I should have downloaded a copy and read it before the event!!

I still think that control descriptions should normally be made available to runners. Especially for control number 4!

(I also hear that leg 3 control 6 had quite a few visits from leg 1 runners!!)

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Originally Posted by Rudolph Hooker

Can't give you a scan of the map for obvious reasons, but the GRs were as follows:-

1. 22841 07558 Monument
2. 22138 06046 Fence Jn
3. 19733 06634 W. Lomond summit
4. 19481 07009 Top of track
5. 18968 07078 Bonnet Stane
6. 22186 06889 Knoll

NB These GRs are from my QUO 2 S/W and may not be exactly spot on.

Amazingly, the map we were given had neither control descriptions (we only received them with our Sportident times after the leg!!) nor any instructions as to what order the controls needed to be visited in.

Obviously most teams did it 1 to 6, but we did spot one V50 team arriving at 5 having missed 4 in the clag and who would have been pretty justified in doing the two controls in the reverse order! However, as both were sporting gentlemen, they reascended the steep hill and did it correctly.

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hey its only a game

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Originally Posted by daz h

hey its only a game

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... is that what Glossopdale said to you when you tried to overtake them at the Ian Hodgson relay? ;-)

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Originally Posted by IainR

I thought this, I'm fairly sure control points have been visited in any order on past nav legs, wasn't that the case at the hayfield Relays...

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I'm pretty sure I remember having to visit the nav leg controls in the Hayfield relays in a set order. But I could be wrong - my memory is going with age!

I think the only time, at least in recent years, that the nav leg has allowed controls to be visited in any order was the one CVFR hosted (2006).

At our event in North Wales a few (two?) years ago the first and last check point was the same (i.e. it had to be visited twice in order!)

I`ve never seen the point of the nav leg in the FRA relays,after all this is a running sport.if its navigation events your after ,do MM or orienteering

Were you at Ennerdale in 2010........they were all nav legs in the mist!!!!

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Originally Posted by rocksteady

I`ve never seen the point of the nav leg in the FRA relays,after all this is a running sport.if its navigation events your after ,do MM or orienteering

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So orienteering isn't a running sport then?

Try telling that to the winner of this year's Langdale Horseshoe among others!!

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Originally Posted by rocksteady

I`ve never seen the point of the nav leg in the FRA relays,after all this is a running sport.if its navigation events your after ,do MM or orienteering

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Ridiculous! Of course fell running is about navigation. How do you think people found their way around Wasdale this year (just to give one example)? Not only straightforward navigation, but route choice as well. I've always maintained that fell running is much more a branch of mountaineering than it is a branch of athletics.

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Originally Posted by GeoffB

Ridiculous! Of course fell running is about navigation. How do you think people found their way around Wasdale this year (just to give one example)? Not only straightforward navigation, but route choice as well. I've always maintained that fell running is much more a branch of mountaineering than it is a branch of athletics.

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I like the nav leg, but for me that should be the extent of the nav. All other courses should be marked IMO.

If not as its a different course each year there is too much advantage to local runners.

Main issue is Sunday relays...next year sounds good.

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Originally Posted by IainR

I like the nav leg, but for me that should be the extent of the nav. All other courses should be marked IMO.

If not as its a different course each year there is too much advantage to local runners.

Main issue is Sunday relays...next year sounds good.

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Agree with everything there, Iain. More often than not people don't have a chance to recce for the relays.

Are you boys are loosing your passion for the sport :confused: ?

I can't believe it's taken until the Friday after the relays before the old chestnut about the nav leg being "a true test of mountaincraft" or "it was too technical, it should surely be a test of athletic prowess".

I think the format is okay, but let's not have the nav leg being too technical, eh?

I felt that the relays were really well organised, great courses & running, but the atmosphere was a bit flat. I can't put my finger on why this was, it may have been that people seemed content to mill around the marquees rather than the start/finish area. As one of my clubmates said it may also have been due to having Brian Potter on the PA system :rolleyes: .

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Originally Posted by Swoop

Saturday 15th October
http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/races.p...11&p=2&p=1&p=3
Unfortunately same day as National Road Relays at Sutton Park
Pity one of them can't be moved a week

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Full information for the 2011 British Hill and Fell Relay Championship can be found here keep checking for updated info!

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Originally Posted by GeoffB

Ridiculous! Of course fell running is about navigation. How do you think people found their way around Wasdale this year (just to give one example)? Not only straightforward navigation, but route choice as well. I've always maintained that fell running is much more a branch of mountaineering than it is a branch of athletics.

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Well done Geoff,
first to bite the hook.
but seriously though,i dont see how the nav leg improves the navigation skills of fellrunners in general as most teams put their best navigators on the nav leg who are already compitent at it.
I class myself as a runner when i`m fellrunning,it may be a mountain sport but to call it mountaineering?? now thats what i call ridiculous

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Originally Posted by rocksteady

Well done Geoff,
first to bite the hook.
but seriously though,i dont see how the nav leg improves the navigation skills of fellrunners in general as most teams put their best navigators on the nav leg who are already compitent at it.
I class myself as a runner when i`m fellrunning,it may be a mountain sport but to call it mountaineering?? now thats what i call ridiculous

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"
2nd to bite.

A nav leg on the British Championship Relays isn't about improving ... it's about seeing which clubs have the best skills (including nav). That's what championships are all about? No?

Fellrunning is a mountain sport. I'm sure loads of folk on here will point you in the direction of fell races which require mountaineering skills up to and including scrambling.

But I'm sure you know these already!

And it usually becomes more more mountainous the more lost you get. :)

would you call sking Mountaineering?some of those runs,especially the off piste runs come down near vertical slopes and again a mountain sport.what about mountain biking?
The present relays format is ok i suppose,and the nav leg can add a bit of excitment and can give some of the teams which lack athletic ability in depth a chance to get back in the race

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Originally Posted by Grouse

And it usually becomes more more mountainous the more lost you get. :)

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It certainly did for Turbo at this years Rabb MM ;)

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Originally Posted by GeoffB

Ridiculous! Of course fell running is about navigation. How do you think people found their way around Wasdale this year (just to give one example)? Not only straightforward navigation, but route choice as well. I've always maintained that fell running is much more a branch of mountaineering than it is a branch of athletics.

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Yeh you say that but Wasdale is on the same course every year, has been for the last 20 or 30 years to my mind. Navigation (as opposed to route finding) is about working out a route you had no knowledge of whatsoever until you were handed your map on the start line! And that's orienteering, not fell running.

Either keep the nav leg in the FRA relays or remove it, but surely if it is kept then the event should be renamed the British Fell Running and Orienteering relays. Because the event currently involves both those disciplines.

navigational skills are an essential part of a fell runners set of skills.
why?well what if the mist/clag comes down,what do you do?
follow others or get your map and compass(which you have in your bum bag)and use.
it is a basic requirement on the grounds of self preservation and a duty you owe to your family and the race organiser to ensure your safe return.
please read the introduction to your fra fixtures calendar,page 9.

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Originally Posted by dylan

navigational skills are an essential part of a fell runners set of skills.
why?well what if the mist/clag comes down,what do you do?
follow others or get your map and compass(which you have in your bum bag)and use.
it is a basic requirement on the grounds of self preservation and a duty you owe to your family and the race organiser to ensure your safe return.
please read the introduction to your fra fixtures calendar,page 9.

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I`d say that most fellrunners have never used their map & compass in an actual race (i think that i can only recall using it once in the 15 years that i`ve been at it) although i dont condone not carrying them though.

Well I've used mine quite a few times.

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Originally Posted by rocksteady

I`d say that most fellrunners have never used their map & compass in an actual race (i think that i can only recall using it once in the 15 years that i`ve been at it) although i dont condone not carrying them though.

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Rs I don't think you've been fell running I think you've been doing Cross country;). I did a night navigation fell race tonight with dark peak. probably 40-50 runners out, I can say with out fear of contradiction that the fastest runners did not neccessarily migrate to the front where as the the faster end runners who could navigate were at the front.

As to not using a map whilst running...... I'm lost for words, my map is out on most races even on sunny clear days. It's certainly used at least twice a month minimum and more at this time with all the night runs we do which is perfect practice for running in mist.

I believe it was Tim W that mentioned Wasdale early as a race with a Fixed course as people had run it for years. There were a large number of runners who went astray this year, many were local and had done the route many times!!!


Good hunting;):D

i once ran a championship race in scotland(sorry cant remeber which one)
was not happy with route the other runners were following,got my map out and saw they were heading way off course,
so corrected my route,further down the field found i was some 400 yards ahead off said pack,
who had corrected themselves after seeing me head off,
I then made a poor route line,the others who had decided to follow started moaning about where i was heading!
I corrected my line again and was verbally abused for 'leading them on a crap route!'
quite a few runners got lost that day,people who normally finish way ahead of me.
lord knows what would have happened that day if the clag would have dropped.
i keep my hand in by running in new locations as often as poss,i plan with map,then run with map in hand,compass at ready.
had some greatr runs in some ace locations.some rubbish too!

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Rs I don't think you've been fell running I think you've been doing Cross country;). I did a night navigation fell race tonight with dark peak. probably 40-50 runners out, I can say with out fear of contradiction that the fastest runners did not neccessarily migrate to the front where as the the faster end runners who could navigate were at the front.

As to not using a map whilst running...... I'm lost for words, my map is out on most races even on sunny clear days. It's certainly used at least twice a month minimum and more at this time with all the night runs we do which is perfect practice for running in mist.

I believe it was Tim W that mentioned Wasdale early as a race with a Fixed course as people had run it for years. There were a large number of runners who went astray this year, many were local and had done the route many times!!!


Good hunting;):D

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If folk would only listen, I'm not doubting the virtues of navigational skills on a misty day at Wasdale. Of course they're an advantage! But, and this is my point, the organisers of such races are not deliberately trying to test runners' navigation. They just consider us (as responsible mountain people) big enough and ugly enough to be able to find our way round routes without being nursemaided. It saves them flagging the whole route which would be some job at Wasdale! But if you ask a marshal which way you had to go, he'd tell you. Or help you as best he could.

Orienteering (including the nav leg at the FRAs) on the other hand is a totally different kettle of fish; in that even on a clear day the whole point is to test your navigation, and that's the difference between the two disciplines. The marshals wouldn't tell you the way if you asked, for besides, you can't even recce the course!

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Originally Posted by Grouse

And it usually becomes more more mountainous the more lost you get. :)

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we did get lost didnt we
i love navving it gets men talking

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Originally Posted by TimW

If folk would only listen, I'm not doubting the virtues of navigational skills on a misty day at Wasdale. Of course they're an advantage! But, and this is my point, the organisers of such races are not deliberately trying to test runners' navigation. They just consider us (as responsible mountain people) big enough and ugly enough to be able to find our way round routes without being nursemaided. It saves them flagging the whole route which would be some job at Wasdale! But if you ask a marshal which way you had to go, he'd tell you. Or help you as best he could.

Orienteering (including the nav leg at the FRAs) on the other hand is a totally different kettle of fish; in that even on a clear day the whole point is to test your navigation, and that's the difference between the two disciplines. The marshals wouldn't tell you the way if you asked, for besides, you can't even recce the course!

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Fell running is a whole set of skills, many of which can only really be built up by going out into the hills and doing it. Because of this, it is far more complex than main stream athletics disciplines, and the one other sport which comes close is indeed orienteering. For a large percentage of fell races, you could argue that navigational skills could be dispensed with, but a runner would be a fool to ignore them altogether, and if the FRA Calendar were to lose events like the Kinder Trial, the Lake District Mountain Trial, the New Chew or indeed any of the Mountain Marathons, the whole sport would be the poorer for it. And I believe that the nav leg on the FRA Relay is important too - not exactly orienteering though is it?

Mind you, at next year's Wasdale race I must remember to ask the marshal at Seatallan - "As this isn't a navigational event, can you tell the best way to get from here to Pillar ... exactly?"

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Originally Posted by Rudolph Hooker

Fell running is a whole set of skills, many of which can only really be built up by going out into the hills and doing it. Because of this, it is far more complex than main stream athletics disciplines, and the one other sport which comes close is indeed orienteering. For a large percentage of fell races, you could argue that navigational skills could be dispensed with, but a runner would be a fool to ignore them altogether, and if the FRA Calendar were to lose events like the Kinder Trial, the Lake District Mountain Trial, the New Chew or indeed any of the Mountain Marathons, the whole sport would be the poorer for it. And I believe that the nav leg on the FRA Relay is important too - not exactly orienteering though is it?

Mind you, at next year's Wasdale race I must remember to ask the marshal at Seatallan - "As this isn't a navigational event, can you tell the best way to get from here to Pillar ... exactly?"

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I don't think there's any need to take the piss, I merely meant they'd not be seen to be giving you unfair assistance by giving you rough clue if you were totally lost (which in an orienteering event that wouldn't be the case). Events like the Mountain Trial and the OMM are great events, no question, but how do they make it into our calendar when they're orienteering?

On that basis we should either emalgamate the sports of fell running and orienteering OR include a few XC and trail running events too in our calendar for good measure, just because they're good events.

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Originally Posted by TimW

I don't think there's any need to take the piss, I merely meant they'd not be seen to be giving you unfair assistance by giving you rough clue if you were totally lost (which in an orienteering event that wouldn't be the case). Events like the Mountain Trial and the OMM are great events, no question, but how do they make it into our calendar when they're orienteering?

On that basis we should either emalgamate the sports of fell running and orienteering OR include a few XC and trail running events too in our calendar for good measure, just because they're good events.

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Infact, why do we complicate things? If we're told the route beforehand and can recce it, or at least study a map (irrespective of whether it's flagged or not, misty or clear, obvious or not so obvious) then it's fell running. If we only get told the route on the start line, then it's orienteering. It can't be any more clear cut than that, can it.

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Originally Posted by TimW

Events like the Mountain Trial and the OMM are great events, no question, but how do they make it into our calendar when they're orienteering?

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These events are not orienteering, they're a test of mountain skills, a very different thing, no need to micro navigate to find the controls.

Navigation is a large part of fell running or do people not train on the tops when the visibility is poor :confused:

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Originally Posted by Baggins

These events are not orienteering, they're a test of mountain skills, a very different thing, no need to micro navigate to find the controls.

Navigation is a large part of fell running or do people not train on the tops when the visibility is poor :confused:

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KIMM was devised by Gerry Charnley to "Test orienteering skills in extreme conditions" - so definitely an orienteering event.

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Originally Posted by Multiterrainer

KIMM was devised by Gerry Charnley to "Test orienteering skills in extreme conditions" - so definitely an orienteering event.

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Edit isn't working - should have said "extreme circumstances"

again i quote page 9 of the fra calendar
Navigational skills.
anyone competing in any of the events listed in this calendar should note that races are organised on the premise that competitors have the necessary skills to cope with navigational problems which may occur-whatever the weather!!
note that mist may cause confusion in even the shortest of events.

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Originally Posted by TimW

Infact, why do we complicate things? If we're told the route beforehand and can recce it, or at least study a map (irrespective of whether it's flagged or not, misty or clear, obvious or not so obvious) then it's fell running. If we only get told the route on the start line, then it's orienteering. It can't be any more clear cut than that, can it.

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I`m with you on this Tim.
you`ve got to remember that the fundimentals of fell running is to run up and then down a hill/fell/mountain as quickly as possible (sometimes more than one) navigating is a bi-product of the sport, which is sometimes an necessity to achive the goal,it could be argued that its the same as good eye to feet co-ordination when decsending.

sorry but thats a load of rubbish.
fell running is about you against the elements and terrain and how you cope,
it is not about just running up and down a hill.
its a test of speed,stamina,route choice and navigating to find the best line plus adaption to changing terrain via weather and increments.
fell running is not about a hilly xc course.

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Originally Posted by TimW

I don't think there's any need to take the piss.

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Tim, I don't think it's me that's taking the piss here.
Mountain Trial = Orienteering??
If you have done either a Mountain Trial or a BOF event, then it's you taking the piss?
And, if you haven't, I suggest you do ... you'll be surprised!

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Originally Posted by Rudolph Hooker

Tim, I don't think it's me that's taking the piss here.
Mountain Trial = Orienteering??
If you have done either a Mountain Trial or a BOF event, then it's you taking the piss?
And, if you haven't, I suggest you do ... you'll be surprised!

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No I've not, I don't claim to be any kind of authority on these events. Why don't you explain the difference to me because to my little mind the LDMT is simply a Long 'O' event, a bit like Ennerdale is a long fell race. But the one thing they do have in common is that the courses they're ran over are not pre-determined. Championship fell races, the Lakeland Classics series of fell races and the Ben Nevis race (for examples) are ran over pre-determined courses. Just because Ennerdale is a vastly different type of race to (say) Buckden Pike, doesn't mean they don't both class as fell races.

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Originally Posted by TimW

Why don't you explain the difference to me because to my little mind the LDMT is simply a Long 'O' event.

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Well ... an XL (extra long) orienteering event would be about a third of the length of the LDMT, and it would not be held in such mountainous country. There would be less of an emphasis on the self-reliance of the runners and more regulations for the race organiser to adhere to in order to cater for this. It would be a totally different experience.

As the title of this thread indicates, this whole argument came out of some people's dislike of navigation. The point being that most of the time you don't even need to navigate, so why have a pure navigation leg in the British Relay?

As some of the answers clearly show, some of us do like to navigate, we find it useful and enjoy the experience of finding our way in the fells. It's also been around for a long time, and in its pure form - LDMT has been on the FRA calendar for over 50 years, longer than the British Relay! I remember marshalling on the KIMM at Tibbie Shiels in 1972!

But the thing that I like about fell running is that it caters for lots of different types of runner - old, young, slow, fast, navigators, non-navigators. Nobody says that you have GOT to do the nav leg at the relay. If you don't want to do it, get somebody who likes navigating to do it. And they'll tell you ... it's no big deal.

But it is fell running.

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Originally Posted by Multiterrainer

KIMM was devised by Gerry Charnley to "Test orienteering skills in extreme circumstances" - so definitely an orienteering event.

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I don't care what wikipedia says its not an orienteering event :wink:

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Mountain Trial = Orienteering

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One nine times mountain trial winner never used a map or compass, no way could you do that in an orienteering event :)

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Originally Posted by Rudolph Hooker

Well ... an XL (extra long) orienteering event would be about a third of the length of the LDMT, and it would not be held in such mountainous country. There would be less of an emphasis on the self-reliance of the runners and more regulations for the race organiser to adhere to in order to cater for this. It would be a totally different experience.

As the title of this thread indicates, this whole argument came out of some people's dislike of navigation. The point being that most of the time you don't even need to navigate, so why have a pure navigation leg in the British Relay?

As some of the answers clearly show, some of us do like to navigate, we find it useful and enjoy the experience of finding our way in the fells. It's also been around for a long time, and in its pure form - LDMT has been on the FRA calendar for over 50 years, longer than the British Relay! I remember marshalling on the KIMM at Tibbie Shiels in 1972!

But the thing that I like about fell running is that it caters for lots of different types of runner - old, young, slow, fast, navigators, non-navigators. Nobody says that you have GOT to do the nav leg at the relay. If you don't want to do it, get somebody who likes navigating to do it. And they'll tell you ... it's no big deal.

But it is fell running.

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Thankyou. And don't get me wrong I'm not some roadie who's never looked at a map and compass in his life, I regard it as an essential aspect of mountain safety and responsibility, and one of the things that sets us all apart from cross country runners. But I would find the nav leg in the FRAs a big deal, good for you if that's what you're good at!

But surely you must recognise the difference between the navigation skills required to pick the best line or take a bearing in the mist during an established fell race, or to relocate when lost from a mere safety point of view, and the skills required to think on your feet having only been handed your map on the start line and to then work out the best route, on a course no one has ever ran before!

Orienteering, Mountain Trials and Mountain Marathons all require this subtle navigating bias as opposed to fell races where (as Rocksteady put it) the need to navigate may be an essential bi-product, although at other times isn't even needed.