Thanks for that advice - I'll try the drink thing on my next long runQuote:
Originally Posted by FarFromTheFells
Printable View
Thanks for that advice - I'll try the drink thing on my next long runQuote:
Originally Posted by FarFromTheFells
Could be to do with the warmer weather?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagwood
I also suffer from cramp when i hit the flat on a race, I know use the a hydration drink from boots, which you use when you've had the runs as mentioned on this forum some time ago, if i take this the night before and the morning off a race.
A dissolved magnesium powder, such as Magnasolv, is pretty good against cramp, especially before going to bed after a long run in the hills. Problem is, I often forget and wake up at 3am - calf muscles seized-up in agony!
You shouldn't take too much salt (easily done if you use alot of processed food) but it's an essential part of the diet. Roman soldiers were paid in salt, hence salary. You've got to have the right amount. Same with fat. I fear alot of people don't take enough of either. It's especially important if you do hard physical work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagwood
I'll second that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FarFromTheFells
Used to have trouble but with the use of Nuun if I'm doing more than a couple of hours, then the only suggestion of cramp is the odd twitch... not had a full blown cramp since taking them.:)
Good luck.
Thanks everyone - a lot of good info here.
Worth having some ibuprofen gel with you in case the cramp strikes on a long race. Works really well on leg muscles.
Funny how running means you have to do the opposite of the normal advice of avoiding sugary drinks and salt.
Done 3 races this year. 1 road marathon, 1 off road marathon ( not a mountain one ) and the Hope Moors and Tors 20 fell race Sunday.
All 3 I've had really bad cramp in the last few miles. I reckon its cost me 20-30 minutes each race
I've run all 3 carrying energy drinks and top up at water stations so I think I get enough fluid on board.
I generally train 3 or 4 times a week including long runs a half hours. Amthinking maybe thats not enough ?
I do tend to get a bit ambitous and start to quick in races so I may have answered my own question there.
Any suggestions ?
Do races a couple of miles shorter and you'll be fine.
Seriously I used to suffer terribly from cramp on the longer stuff. Not sure what the answer is although I've certainly got older and slower but I have started eating a lot more and earlier as well as trying to drink plenty on the longer runs. Never tried energy drink or gels so don't know how effective these are. Some seem to swear by Nunn tablets take a look at this thread http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...highlight=Nunn
Thanks. Have looked at the thread about the nuun tablets. Might look into those.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfella
I think its probably down to simply not quite enough training. A few more 4 hour treks over Kinder should strengthen the legs for next season.
I sympathise with this, I suffer from debilitating calf cramp on long races (never runs, always races). I was actually winning the Nine Edges race a couple of weekends ago before being struck down with cramp in both calves at about the 16 mile point.
I've tried compression socks - little difference.
Aside from obviously stretching out the affected muscles, the only solution I've found is to get fluid and food on board immediately and hope it kicks in quickly, which leads me to think that I'm not hydrating or feeding enough on the hoof the rest of the time in the long races. Next time I'm going to plan what to eat and drink in advance and more specfically at which point to ensure a more even distribution and see how that goes.
Unlucky with the Nine Edges, must have been very frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by simgreen78
Could be lack of food for me. I didn't eat a lot during Sunday's 20 miler. Tried to get something down at 15 miles but it felt like it was coming back up.
I've been very impressed with Nuuns and I am generally very cynical about sports drinks, gels, energy food etc
Once I'd whacked down a flapjack and half a litre of Nuun water I got going again after a (fair) few minutes and felt OK. Don't know which had the greatest impact in powering up my calves, but I've taken it as a lesson for the next time...
Looks like Nuun is the way to go then. Windgather 13.5 on Sunday so will give the nuun a try
Yep I know this problem only too well and have tried quite a bit of stuff. Its a hugely personal thing and what works for one might not work for another.
I did some of my first longer distance runs off the back of a fairly low weekly mileage and suffered in some of the LDWA events simply due to not being fit enough and also not really having a decent grasp on hydration and eating during the event.
Any longer distance stuff I'm now fairly regimented and try to eat something everything 45mins/1 hour and ensure I'm drinking atleast 500ml for every 1 hour of excercise. Best to try and get reasonably hydrated before the start as well.
One of the things I also struggled with was monitoring how much fluid I was actually taking onboard, from my first events I was probably drinking about 1ltr of fluid in 5 hours worth of running. :o
From a personal perspective I found it virtually impossible to guage how much I was drinking using a bladder, so switched to using bottles. Something like the SIS bottles are great with graduations so you know how much you've had. It also means you're not lugging around extra weight but it does mean you need to fairly sure there is water source available en route.
Stretching is something which I've tried to add in to my weekly routine and whilst I don't think its massively helped its something I just do.
It might also be worth looking at your diet we don't really eat any pre-packaged meals, everything is prepared from scratch and we don't really use a huge amount of salt in our cooking. Every now and then I just add a bit of extra salt to my meal again its not something I've identified as being the key contributor.
Finally I started using Nuun like others have recommended and rate it highly.
As you'll see its a bit of a conundrum and something which will take a bit of experimentation to see what works for you on a personal level, all the above is something I've played around with over the last 18 months.
I did an adventure race last month and after 7 hours worth of racing on the final day I can say that I didn't cramp which for me is a major step in the right direction.:w00t:
I try and drink a litre of Nuun 1-2 hours before the race and drink a mix of nuun and energy drinks through the race. Waiting until you are hungry or thirsty is waaaaaayyyyyyyy too late. I start approx 30 minutes in on a long race.
I had no cramp at PPP's this which is notorious for it, and only got it on the Skyline in the last two miles after running way above my standing.
amount is dependent on weather obviously a warm day like the OCT this year it is impossible to drink enough. But as a rule of thumb I try and work to body weight in Kilos converted to millilitres x75% per hour
80 kilo's= 0.8lts x75%= 0.6lts an hour, it seems to work for me, if it's hot then a bit more.
Thanks for the detailed reply Mike.
From all the replies it looks like eating is something I don't do enough of during races. I tend to assocaite cramp with not enough liquid on board and neglect eating.
Everyone mentions the Nuun so I'll pick some up this week.
No problems at all, it will take a bit of time but stick with it.
Ian thanks for that bit of info as well, I've not really seen it expressed like that before but makes for a fairly simple way of monitoring hydration.
I'm sure I read it some where, there is a limit as to how much water your body can absorb in 1 hour, any more than this and it just swill around in your stomach. It may be that you will still dehydrate(so drink plenty before running) but at a controlled rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
So if you don't drink for say 2 hours then you can't get that time back to take on fluids you start from the moment you drink if that makes sense.
Yesterday on the Kinder Trial I felt cramp coming on in the back of my left leg, a few inches above the knee. This was towards the end after a lot of rough traversing, but happened in a gently falling field of very horrible tussock. I slowed for a minute or two and thankfully it didn't come back in the race. Then I actually had a sudden cramp while I was eating my soup at the finish - I had to jump up to relieve it and spilt everyone's tea and soup.
Does anyone have any idea why this might have happened when I'm OK running faster over longer distances normally, and also any suggestions as to what I might do to prevent it happening again?
Cheers
Jim
PS: this was my first MT type event, and I was moving in a sustained way probably the fastest I have ever done over rough pathless terrain (still not very fast by the standards of most...)
Muscles cramp if they are asked to do something they are not used to - either in terms of volume, or in terms of the nature of the activity - or a combination of both. If you had trained to run on "a gently falling field of very horrible tussock" then you probably would not have developed cramp. Once a muscle has cramped it will tend to continue to do so for quite some time, even with trivial movements or even at rest. Despite what some say there seems to be little evidence that it has anything to do with salt or potassium depletion.
Jim,
Only just caught up with this. A couple of thoughts for you;
i) I'm aware from your blog that you've upped training a fair bit of late, this could just be a reaction to it. You're asking your muscles to do more than they were. Don't worry on this score, with the plans you have in place for this year, they'll adapt.
ii) Do you use an electrolyte drink? I never used to but swear by them now. I favour nuun tablets but other brands are available. As you do longer distances or harder training, your body will require more nutrients, and if it gets out of balance, cramp can be a result
iii) Terrain. You do a lot of training on those wonderful, short grass, fairly even surface Shropshire hills. Running in the Peak and Yorkshire is very different. There are lots of tussocks and lots of lifting your leg up out of bogs. This will place a different strain on your muscles.
iv) Finally, you can't ignore the fact that you might have an underlying injury in that muscle perhaps. Do you go for regular sport massage? If not, I'd recommend it.
I don't know how good any scientific evidence is or isn't but anecdotal evidence I certainly have. When I first moved to equitorial Africa 15 years ago I had frequent problems with cramp, even when doing only moderately strenuous activities - working outside on the truck for a few hours was enough to bring it on. Someone gave me salt tablets to take and I stopped having problems. I soon gave up on the tablets and just added more salt to my food. I've never had cramp since - until 18 miles into the Wadsworth Trog last month. Not sure why it suddenly occured then except that since coming back to the UK last year I've reduced my salt intake (on the basis I don't sweat as much when running here as I do simply sitting at my desk in Gabon, but maybe I've overdone it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
The only time i ever get cramp is in the middle of the night, after a skinful of alcohol. This is enough to prove to me that it is my body suffering from dehydration( brought on by the effects of alcohol )that cause cramp. This falls into line with the lack of salt argument etc
Interesting anecdotes - does anyone know of any scientific studies that show that salt prevents cramps? My explanations would be that Latege was getting used to a completely different exercise regimen - correct me if I am wrong - and that TheReverand is sedating himself into abnormal muscle positions for long periods of time = propensity to cramp.
From " Marathon Medicine" - a book based on a symposium held at the Royal Society of Medicine, 2000 ; some quotes:
Re cramp: " There is no metabolic explanation" - Prof. Eric Newsholme, Professor of Biochemistry, Oxford.
" It is difficult to find a metabolic or electrolyte cause...." - Prof. Bengt Saltin, The Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre.
Noakes says much the same thing.
I don't know if my experience is of any relevance, but last spring/early summer I suffered from cramps most nights. I was drinking plenty and although training hard, this was nothing I'd not done before. I mentioned my peoblem to a pharmacist and he suggested two unrelated reasons.
(1) My diet was very, very low in sodium as a result of me eating fresh food and especially loads of fruit. He also thought that the number of bananas I ate would be causing the little sodium I ate to be "exchanged" with the potassium in the bananas.
(2) I was on medication and one of the side effects was to reduce sodium uptake.
I therefore started adding salt at his suggestion (not much only about 1g/day) and wonder of wonders the cramps disappeared.
There's a clue here:
Prof. Bengt Saltin, The Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre
Excellent! - I had not spotted that.
Very interesting - drug induced night cramps are of course very different from running but I can see where you are coming from. I imagine the medication increased salt excretion. If it was for blood pressure having extra salt may have partly negated the benefits. It is very hard to have a diet that is too low in salt - we evolved in a low salt environment and our bodies are used to getting by on very little - most people in Western Society have far too much, hence our tendency to high blood pressure etc - with potassium it is the opposite - as long as your kidneys are OK and you are not on certain medications it is difficult to have too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smut
No, I run here in the UK pretty much the same distance, frequency, intensity as in Gabon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Latege - " working outside on the truck for a few hours was enough to bring it on " - this is what I was referring to - I was assuming this was new - and this was predisposing you to cramp when running.
Sorry, I misunderstood - I don't usually count working on the truck as an exercise regimen! Still, it was "only" the environment not the work/exercise that changed - a significant change, but my point was the increased salt intake seemed to stave it off. Not saying salt will stop all incidents of cramp, it's more complicated than that, but it does seem to play a part.
Difficult to believe that Profs Newsholme and Saltin do not know what they are talking about - but maybe in some people under unusual circumstances ......
I'm not familiar with the professors. Do they do a lot of fell running? I think I'd rather listen to anecdotal evidence from people who are out on the hill regularly than academic studiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
I always get lots of sodium and potassium on board but I still always get horrendous debilitating calf cramps after about fifteen miles of properly caning it on the fells, racing not training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
At Christmas I decided to take a different approach to this problem, and since then five or six times a week I do the same type of calf/step exercises used to treat Achilles Tendonitis but with 9kg weights in the corresponding hand to the leg I am strengthening. Four lots of thirty lifts, both legs.
Ran Grindleford Gallop (21 miles) on Saturday. Same amount of sodium and potassium on board as usual. Got to 100metres before finish before the cramp really hit. That is six miles later than same race last year, and I was running ten minutes faster by that point. The strengthening work I've been doing seems to be paying off. It has taught me that staying hydrated and topped up with this and that, whilst clearly important to a performance, will only help so much. Training yourself appropriately and becoming 'fit for purpose' is the real key to overcoming cramp issues.
The weights continue...;)
Hey, let's not let some scientific research get in the the way of good anecdotal evidence :rolleyes:. Do you still believe that the earth is flat? Your "do they do a lot of fell running" comment is amusing. Is fell running cramp different from all other sorts of cramp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
For what it's worth, my contribution to the anecdotal evidence is that cramp has very little to do with salt, hydration or whatever sports drink, gels or funny tablets are currently in vogue and an awful lot to do with the correct training and conditioning for whatever exercise is being undertaken.
Simon and shadbolt, I find myself agreeing with you re training yourself appropriately and becoming 'fit for purpose' and that cramp has an awful lot to do with the correct training and conditioning for whatever exercise is being undertaken
Some of my worst outbreaks of cramp have certainly come when trying to run further or faster than my then fitness levels suggested was perhaps sensible :o
Yes, I've been there too :eek:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup