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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andy k
In my expereince feeling good is not always a good indicator of performance.
I've trained /raced when feeling good and had poor sessions / results
I've trained /raced when feeling "off" and had great sessions / results
there's so much more at play than the physiology - psychology I think then call it.
I think I'm like that.. I can warm up well... but normally know within 100m of a race how its going..
I think I do run better of confidence which is why I like high mileage.. I know it may not make sense physiologically but turning up to a race knowing I've ran x miles/week, x sessions/ week, gives me confidence that it'll go OK..
I definetly find a good taper now works, I never did, but think now I'm running more when I do taper and do it properly, I certainly run at my best, but I'd only do that for 5 or 6 races a year at most..
I do worry about the long term effects of high mileage are and how many runners who do 80/90/100 miles plus a week stay in the game.. speaking with a fair few older runners they seem convinced the switch to biking was a huge plus in their running longevity.. certainly now I'm at the 90/100 mile week stage I hurt more, my hips sting at times..
The other thing though, and its blindingly obvious, is being lighter.. I'm a big guy, dropping 3/4/5 kilos for a big race makes a huge difference.. but I like food and beer...
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IainR
The other thing though, and its blindingly obvious, is being lighter.. I'm a big guy, dropping 3/4/5 kilos for a big race makes a huge difference.. but I like food and beer...
I'm thinking the same. For me not you, just to keep it clear. That and running regularly seems to make me faster but I'd love to be a faster runner full stop. I just can't be bothered with reps and intervals and weights and anything that stops running from being fun. Someone needs to write a good, generic training guide for those of us who can't get to the hills everyday but still want to do better.
..and back on topic in 3...2...1...
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LissaJous
Hi FG, I'd definitely aim for 3 sessions a week for a couple of months while you're using it as training, then probably 1/week to keep it ticking over.
When I was using the gym for weights (and this was in deep winter when I don't train well outside), I used to do my weights routines round the gym, then immediately on to the treadmill for one of my (slow-speed/uphill) interval sessions. Taken together there was an element of
metabolic training to it all. Now I have some free weights at home, I more often do the lifting a while after training, but not immediately after, and not after a very intense session, especially not if this was high impact.
If people want to know more I'll put it in a new thread (I didn't see a recent old thread?). I don't claim to be authoritative on the subject either. I can tell you that Graeme Woodward is!
Hi Iain,
If you go for low-weight / lots of reps, you may as well just go for a run ~ you're not creating a significantly different stimulus
(
Although of course beginners at weights should start well within their comfort range before they starting to push the limit, and yes some of the reasons for doing weights work still apply to many-reps, and yes, for support muscles not directly trained by running, I may well go for 3x10 or 2x20 reps rather than pushing the limit on x3s or x5s, especially on things like leg-curl and hip adductor machines which can very easily cause strains (hamstring, groin respectively) ~ I almost invariably use free weights and body-weight exercises these days, but I think machines are a good starting point for anyone).
Also, agreed, some people put on muscle very readily, and others (men & women) don't, so it's different things for different people.
Between very steep hill reps, cycling, and weights, I'd say the most important factor in making a choice is that you have to be motivated to go and do it 3 times a week.
Specific advantages of weights include, however:
- Teaching body to use high proportion of muscle fibres
- Doing this over a large ROM (Range of Movement)
- Applying force eccentrically and concentrically (imagine your quads as you first sit down slowly into a squat, and then stand up again)
- Building support muscles that aid technique and injury prevention but that are not directly worked in normal training
- Reducing muscle imbalance (eg hamstrings vs quads)
- Training fast and slow twitch fibres that may not be activated in your normal training (by using slow and also explosive weights moves)
Hi Lauren. What posture do you adopt with deep squats? Do you stick your arse out as far as possible, or do you try to keep as much of your weight as possible directly over your feet? The first would mean very little bend at the ankles with your legs ending up at right angles and the weight being taken through your heels; the second would make the inside angle between your feet and your shins more acute and mean you'd take the weight evenly through your heels and toes. Sorry to be technical.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mr brightside
Interesting you mention that. I think i'm going to go to the doctors for a blood test to see if i have any serious deficiencies. My knees have had me down to 4/5mpw for years now, dispite intensive physio. I thought i was making progress with a fresh physio and a new diagnosis, but recently both have completely wiped out leaving me unable to even walk my 4/5mpw without concequences; i can feel depression starting to kick back in again so i'm back swimming again to try and beat it off. The only common denominator is the winter. I'm running out of ways to 'get back into it easily', i can't go any slower than a walk! If my family history is anything to go by i'm also due a cancer fight some time soon too.
Come on Mr B this is a technical thread not a 'look at poor little me' thread.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andy k
In my expereince feeling good is not always a good indicator of performance.
I've trained /raced when feeling good and had poor sessions / results
I've trained /raced when feeling "off" and had great sessions / results
there's so much more at play than the physiology - psychology I think then call it.
That's because you haven't distinguished between the generalised fatigue and localised fatigue that Lissa was talking about.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
christopher leigh
Come on Mr B this is a technical thread not a 'look at poor little me' thread.
Sorry Christopher it's just nice to vent it somewhere, i don't tend to vent it with people because they tend to react like you do.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
christopher leigh
That bouncy feeling Lissa describes is how exercise should make you feel and when it does you shouldn't always destroy it with more hard training. In other words enjoy being fit.
Yes, it's almost a rule-of-thumb for me that at the end of a training session, I should feel like I want to go further, or certainly after a few minutes recovery.
After my toughest/maximal interval sessions, naturally I need to stop at the end (... and breathe!), but 15 minutes later I feel on a massive high. And a bit dizzy. Once I tried repeating the interval work, and my legs absolutely didn't allow it! These days I have a rule: I'll be planning a number of intervals. If my legs are reaching total exhaustion I'll stop early (otherwise my next session will be compromised), but I'll never add intervals. I may bump the speed up or steal seconds out of my recovery intervals if it's too easy. Note: total exhaustion in legs is I presume when the muscle glycogen is all gone, and (whatever the cause), will take 2 or 3 days to recover compared to ~1 day if I stop just a fraction earlier.
And as I mentioned in my first post in the thread, my first priority when feeling bouncy is recovery drink / followed by food. That evening bounce is a vital opportunity for your body to absorb nutrients. Leave it too long and it's replaced by tiredness/sleepiness.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
There's been some great information on here. Real food for thought.
I do keep thinking, as I'm reading, I don't imagine Joss Naylor ever gave this sort of thing that much thought, and the reading I've done suggests he didn't (could be wrong, but his approach seemed really natural and simple), but for those of us that aren't Joss... it's been really interesting.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vegan Runner
I'm thinking the same. For me not you, just to keep it clear. That and running regularly seems to make me faster but I'd love to be a faster runner full stop. I just can't be bothered with reps and intervals and weights and anything that stops running from being fun. Someone needs to write a good, generic training guide for those of us who can't get to the hills everyday but still want to do better.
..and back on topic in 3...2...1...
I actually find hill reps and intervals quite good fun. I also enjoy body weight exercises.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Twister
I actually find hill reps and intervals quite good fun. I also enjoy body weight exercises.
That's the beauty of being in a club/group of good runners..
It was something we never had in North Wales really, well with Menai for a bit..
But over in the states I've had a group in Texas, and elite track clubs in Boston and Philly to train with..
You turn up, tired leggy.. you chat with everyone, have a laugh, do a few miles warm up, all your stretching, which you'd (I'd) never do properly on my own, blast out your reps, and the way the US people are it is all incredibly positive... none of the UK put downs.. lots of encouragement, then you do your cool down, more chats and a laugh.. 8-10 mile sessions, normally a good 3-4 miles of hard efforts.. really enjoyable session.
In TX we had a group of 20-30, from 13-50 year olds, all standards and we'd just divide into groups, we had runners from olympic marathon standard down to people doing 2 hr halfmarathons.. so the full range.. incredible sessions with a great coach.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IainR
That's the beauty of being in a club/group of good runners..
It was something we never had in North Wales really, well with Menai for a bit..
But over in the states I've had a group in Texas, and elite track clubs in Boston and Philly to train with..
You turn up, tired leggy.. you chat with everyone, have a laugh, do a few miles warm up, all your stretching, which you'd (I'd) never do properly on my own, blast out your reps, and the way the US people are it is all incredibly positive... none of the UK put downs.. lots of encouragement, then you do your cool down, more chats and a laugh.. 8-10 mile sessions, normally a good 3-4 miles of hard efforts.. really enjoyable session.
In TX we had a group of 20-30, from 13-50 year olds, all standards and we'd just divide into groups, we had runners from olympic marathon standard down to people doing 2 hr halfmarathons.. so the full range.. incredible sessions with a great coach.
I used to be in a club in the UK but we never did any specific sessions in the club, although if you wanted to do some intervals there'd always be a faster runner that would help. Since moving to France I run on my own, with the very occasional run with my partner.
Even though I have to self motivate I find that I really enjoy speedier sessions. I really love gritted teeth sustained hard efforts up hill.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Roy Scott
These debates go round and round in circles because everyone knows an approach that seemed to work that a coach, athlete or they used at some point in their athletic career. So it is impossible to come to a sound consensus.
I doubt many on here are doing the maximum amount of training their body can cope with. Therefore there is potential for improvement. Training adaptation and performing better for most would be akin to a tube of toothpaste; where ever you squeeze the tube from you will get some out. However if you want to get every last bit of paste/potential out you have to be clever and roll it from the end. The best way to do this is the method I have suggested. I know this because the vast majority of elite endurance athletes do the same. Now this does not mean that Bob round the corner wont improve by doing moderate intensity runs ever over day, it just means that he wont go as far with the potential he has.
I thought i heard that toothpaste anology before: It was in an article by Hadd a US endurance coach. He maintained that aerobic develooment should be maxed at the lower aerobic ranges (squeezing from the bottom) before adding runs at consecutively higher HRs (getting all the paste) including LT. At this stage Specific training is added to the mix. Now you ahve implied that our fictional runner Bob could continue to improve running aerobically but will do better employing the methods you suggest.
So If Bob has 5 hrs to run per week and has developed his aerobic condition to 75%, you suggest cutting the aerobic work and starting work from 85-100% MAX HR?
Why? Why shouldnt Bob finish maximising his aerobic potential (for a 5 hr week) to 100% and then adds the sharper stuff? Clearly hell reach a higher level of fitness.Why leave 25% of the paste in the tube unnessarily?
Quote:
Work within the range of 85-100% Max HR is essential, and you have to be able to perform in these sessions. Not half baked because you are trying to get to 100 miles for the week. Some elite Marathon runners can run a whole marathon at 85-90% of their max heart rate, so ambling along at 70% is a waste of time.
Now the aerobic base you talk of is mainly a result of two physiological adaptations. 1 - An increase in mitochondria density 2 - Increase efficiency of fat metabolism. These two can both be achieved at 50-60% of max heart rate, i.e. an easy run.
Increase in mitochondria density/Increase efficiency of fat metabolism
Running at 50-60% HR uses less than 20% of the muscle fibres available and crucially uses the same 20%. It is not optimal, but at these paces you will get adaptions in other fibres by only by running very very long over a very very long period. Bob doesnt have the time and cant aford to leave even more toothpaste in the tube.. The optimal method for both runners to achive these adaptions is to develop maximum efficiency/mith density by running at all aerobic paces (allowing for a time constraint of 5 hrs) in Bobs case. Running short uphill sprints at 100% effort can also help utilize more fibres (almost all) and make them and their fuel available for recruitment.
Quote:
The fuel mix sentence makes little sense to me I am afraid. What ever intensity you run at you will burn both Fat and Glycogen, its just the proportions that change
Lets look at your assertion about the importance of 85-100% MAX HR training with reference to the marathon (the event you mentioned).
Firstly the fuel mix again because this is hugely relevant to the marathon: there will be a certain exact proportion of Fat and Glycogen a runner burns at his marathon pace. It is now understood that burning fat alone at slow paces will not cause as much adaption beneficial to marathon pace as spending a lot of time running in lipid ranges within 10% of marathon race pace. The body needs to be good at burning the correct proportion of Running at all Aerobic paces (Lydiard, Canova) will make the body become efficient at burning mixtures at all proportions. The benefits of this training is obvious: The benefits of developing it for burning fuel efficiently up and down hills at different intensities should be even more obvious.
Benefits or otherwise of 95-100% of MAX HR for marathon:
As we know making your glycogen stores last the marathon distance is essential, and this effectively governs your effort level in this race. Doing work around VO2 max or faster not only burns up glycogen at a huge rate, but disastrously teaches the body to burn up glycogen more quickly. If you regard this training as "essential" and do it in the vital final phase before a marathon, you will either have to slow your pace relative to your alower glycogen burning competitors who train at specific paces in this phase. Or else you can run at their pace and fade painfully and horribly at 30k which was the fate of many 80s marathoners using these methods. You MUST teach the body to burn the correct proportion of fuels and above all you MUST NOT teach the body to burn glycogen more quickly which will inevitably happen when an athlete trains as you suggest for a marathon.
What is an example of specific training for the marathon for Elites? 4 X 6k @ Marathon Pace(MP) 1k @ 90% MP recovery. Specific, specific, specific.
What did the elite have to do in the preceding phase to eb able to do this session? 6 X 3k @ HM pace, 32k @ 95% MP.
And the preceding phase? Build power to be extended later: 20-40 minute hard tempo, 10 X 1k @ 10k pace, 2 min rec. etc. Build Resistance: 2hrs -2hrs 45 @ 80% MP.
This assumes that aerobic conditioning ahs been maximised over many years of high mileage (100-140 mpw)
These tarining philosophies are not just from any coach: They are from the coaches who train the top marathoners in the world. Ryan Hall will use these methods with his new Coach Canova.
In our club we have 2 lads who ran well under 2:20 in the Autumn. I know one of them doesnt do any training faster than 110% MP (as above) apart from light speedwork.
Would i recommend this to Bob because the Elites do it, absolutely not!!!!
What would i recommend for Bob?
1. Maximise aerobic potential given the time he has by running at different aerobic paces
2. develop aerobic power on the flat and uphill to prepare him for extending that power for the event. Also Do long terrain runs.
3. EXtend the hill and flats essions to match the event/s. Reps get longer, recovery relatively shorter (faster descending). Long runs get faster.
For a 1hr fell race. Bob will be able to climb and descend strongly in races: noticably getting stronger than his competitors as the race progresses. He has trained to do this strongly for 45 minutes in specific sessions.
Some of his competitors may have power from MAX HR sessions: it wont last ....they lack the ability to extend this Power at race pace. Thay have not trained specifically or optimally for the event.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mr brightside
Sorry Christopher it's just nice to vent it somewhere, i don't tend to vent it with people because they tend to react like you do.
Come on Mr B stop feeling sorry for yourself all the time its wearing me out. Be optimistic and get involved in the debate instead of looking for opportunities to create sympathy.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LissaJous
Yes, it's almost a rule-of-thumb for me that at the end of a training session, I should feel like I want to go further, or certainly after a few minutes recovery.
After my toughest/maximal interval sessions, naturally I need to stop at the end (... and breathe!), but 15 minutes later I feel on a massive high. And a bit dizzy. Once I tried repeating the interval work, and my legs absolutely didn't allow it! These days I have a rule: I'll be planning a number of intervals. If my legs are reaching total exhaustion I'll stop early (otherwise my next session will be compromised), but I'll never add intervals. I may bump the speed up or steal seconds out of my recovery intervals if it's too easy. Note: total exhaustion in legs is I presume when the muscle glycogen is all gone, and (whatever the cause), will take 2 or 3 days to recover compared to ~1 day if I stop just a fraction earlier.
And as I mentioned in my first post in the thread, my first priority when feeling bouncy is recovery drink / followed by food. That evening bounce is a vital opportunity for your body to absorb nutrients. Leave it too long and it's replaced by tiredness/sleepiness.
Lissa I think we see things in a similar way. Arthur Jones (inventor of the Nautilus exercise equipment in the early 70s) once wrote that when you are very fit you can finish a hard session and after a short recovery be quite capable of doing it again. He was talking about high intensity weight training which is extremely gruelling but of course you can apply it to running. He finished his statement by writing that although you could do the session again you shouldn't do it again. He knew that the purpose of training was to stimulate the required physiological changes and once you'd done that further effort was not only futile but the extra effort would eat into precious recovery ability.
Jones' theoretical work is genius and consequently very few people can understand or even make an effort to understand. The one's that do and put it into practise will be rewarded with a method that is unbeatable.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turlough
What is an example of specific training for the marathon for Elites? 4 X 6k @ Marathon Pace(MP) 1k @ 90% MP recovery. Specific, specific, specific.
What did the elite have to do in the preceding phase to eb able to do this session? 6 X 3k @ HM pace, 32k @ 95% MP.
And the preceding phase? Build power to be extended later: 20-40 minute hard tempo, 10 X 1k @ 10k pace, 2 min rec. etc. Build Resistance: 2hrs -2hrs 45 @ 80% MP.
This assumes that aerobic conditioning ahs been maximised over many years of high mileage (100-140 mpw)
Turlough, I have much appreciated your posts too, as so much of my training is near race-pace, including a considerable element of intervalised work just above race-pace, (sometimes with recovery just under race-pace). And nearer races my training is much more race-specific, as you say.
Did you mean 32km@95% Marathon pace though? Often?! It sounds a bit tough!
I guess I would want to add that, by making my body restore glycogen levels quickly and often, I am hoping to boost the max amount that my body can store, but yes your point about potentially teaching your body to burn glycogen too quickly is interesting. Incidentally, I avoid using energy drinks for the vast majority of my training.
Meanwhile, this month I'm getting to grips with the psychology of keeping my steady runs steady ~ not a problem when everything's going well, but a major challenge if you keep comparing training times now with those at peak form last year!
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
christopher leigh
Come on Mr B stop feeling sorry for yourself all the time its wearing me out. Be optimistic and get involved in the debate instead of looking for opportunities to create sympathy.
I feel sorry for Mr B when you're so hard on him CL.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turlough
.
Would i recommend this to Bob because the Elites do it, absolutely not!!!!
What would i recommend for Bob?
1. Maximise aerobic potential given the time he has by running at different aerobic paces
2. develop aerobic power on the flat and uphill to prepare him for extending that power for the event. Also Do long terrain runs.
3. EXtend the hill and flats essions to match the event/s. Reps get longer, recovery relatively shorter (faster descending). Long runs get faster.
For a 1hr fell race. Bob will be able to climb and descend strongly in races: noticably getting stronger than his competitors as the race progresses. He has trained to do this strongly for 45 minutes in specific sessions.
Some of his competitors may have power from MAX HR sessions: it wont last ....they lack the ability to extend this Power at race pace. Thay have not trained specifically or optimally for the event.
Your entire post was well worth reading a number of times, however the section above for me is key for many runners who only have a limited time to train. (That's probably the majority of athletes.) There is loads of info out there on training plans for elites and those with loads of time, but on the adaptation of those programmes for those on limited time there isn't as much. It is a really interesting topic.
For those faced with a schedule that calls for 5-6 days of running, it can be a difficult decision as to what to drop if you only have 3-4 days a week to train. Yours is good guidance.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LissaJous
Turlough, I have much appreciated your posts too, as so much of my training is near race-pace, including a considerable element of intervalised work just above race-pace, (sometimes with recovery just under race-pace). And nearer races my training is much more race-specific, as you say.
Did you mean 32km@95% Marathon pace though? Often?! It sounds a bit tough!
I guess I would want to add that, by making my body restore glycogen levels quickly and often, I am hoping to boost the max amount that my body can store, but yes your point about potentially teaching your body to burn glycogen too quickly is interesting. Incidentally, I avoid using energy drinks for the vast majority of my training.
Meanwhile, this month I'm getting to grips with the psychology of keeping my steady runs steady ~ not a problem when everything's going well, but a major challenge if you keep comparing training times now with those at peak form last year!
Its an extremely tough session! In that phase the athletes also do a 50k run @ 85% marathon pace, a 20k run @ race pace etc and thats nkt even the specific phase.
These are 140mpw elite athletes. Mortals wont make these sessions. The 32k run would be a base for the long MP intervals to follow.
Interesting about not taking on energy. The runner who went 2.17 in the autumn did 2 40k easy runs in the hills with only water. He said he had difficulty keeping drinks down during more intense running. Apart from water he had only one slug of flat coke during his marathon!
I have an excel calculator for calculating sessions and paces for particular inputted marathon times. Which i can share when im on my pc. Very interested in the weights stuff for power to weight gains.
The max intensity uphill sprints mentioned are similar To your fatigue to max weight training. They fatigue all muscle fibres and make all the glycogen avsilable. They are very adaptable. After an easy of moderate run twice a week. Or during a session. E.g 15 x 8 s all out uphill (to fatigue legs maximally) then 20 min tempo/40-60 minute marathon pace (on flat first then uphill). Your body will try and acquire glygogen from any available source, and youll have made a lot of sources available after the uphill sprints.
Also you can use the sprints for tecnique while youre at it: if you take light fast steps normally then push hard with long strides to develop strenght, or lift knees with fast cadence for leg speed etc etc.
The elite marathoners also do a long 35k run @ 90 % MP. These includes 5 x 2k @ HM pace near the latter part. The athetes run out of glycogen after 2-3 reps. But they must continue. The adaptions from the last couple of reps get the runner a few minutes further up the road on glycogen come race day.
A session to weep before as well as after, and tougher again knowing that a kind of failure is guaranteed.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Turlough - really interesting posts.
just a bit confused by use of % paces
eg
marathon pace = 6 minute mile
90% of marathon pace = ( 6 / 90 ) x 100 = 6:40 minute mile. Correct ?
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andy k
Turlough - really interesting posts.
just a bit confused by use of % paces
eg
marathon pace = 6 minute mile
90% of marathon pace = ( 6 / 90 ) x 100 = 6:40 minute mile. Correct ?
Thank god.. I'm also similarly challenged.. but either way it's 6:36 or 6:40.. 10% of 6:00 is 0:36.. so 10% slower is 6:36.. or 6:00/9*10 = 6:40..
which in incidentally what I do most of my long runs at.. well 85-90%.. never worked it out by that just happens to be around 6:35-6:45 pace..
I like the idea of reps in the pace, but that's essentially the old Charlie Spedding session isn't it.. reps at marathon pace with recovery at ~ 1 min off that.. so I do 6 min/mile and 7 min mile recovery..
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IainR
Thank god.. I'm also similarly challenged.. but either way it's 6:36 or 6:40.. 10% of 6:00 is 0:36.. so 10% slower is 6:36.. or 6:00/9*10 = 6:40..
which in incidentally what I do most of my long runs at.. well 85-90%.. never worked it out by that just happens to be around 6:35-6:45 pace..
I like the idea of reps in the pace, but that's essentially the old Charlie Spedding session isn't it.. reps at marathon pace with recovery at ~ 1 min off that.. so I do 6 min/mile and 7 min mile recovery..
Apologies those are Renato Canova sessions so ill blame him. He means 10% slower or pace * 1.1
Canovas athletes gradually train more specifically by making the long runs faster and the reps lomger and of greater volume once aerobic power and resistance are developed. Another session he uses In every phase is called alternations. This involves running 20 X 1k alternating paces from around AnThreshold to a little slower than AErobic threshold.4 months out, the session works on improving the AnT k's while keeping the AT splits constant. Next month the AnTs reps are the constant base while the AT splits are improved. 1 session of each kind in the second last month. Last month, fast reps are slowed and slower reps are speeded in an effort to pull the thresholds even closer. Average speed for the session is now marathon race pave or thereabouts.
He mentions two gains from this session. AT is brought as close as posible to AnT. This is one of the fundamental goals of elite marathon training. The session is a 6 pointer though: these elites are burning relstively high amounts of glycogen to finish in just over two hours. This produces some lactic in the muscles, which can potentially be re-used. The body is taught to use the lactic during the slower alternation....i.e the body learns to re-use lactic at around marathon race pace. So this session produces surprisingly better results than youd expect because there is more goimg on under the bonnet. This elite session doesnt translate to us slower runners, because we dont run hard enough at MP to produce enough lactic to have those benefits. A bloody good one for the half though!
And a good on to do up and down a shallow gradient on a good grass surface where the body can learn to flush out lactic before hitting the heavy hill sessions.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turlough
Canovas athletes gradually train more specifically by making the long runs faster and the reps lomger and of greater volume once aerobic power and resistance are developed. Another session he uses In every phase is called alternations. This involves running 20 X 1k alternating paces from around AnThreshold to a little slower than AErobic threshold.4 months out, the session works on improving the AnT k's while keeping the AT splits constant. Next month the AnTs reps are the constant base while the AT splits are improved. 1 session of each kind in the second last month. Last month, fast reps are slowed and slower reps are speeded in an effort to pull the thresholds even closer. Average speed for the session is now marathon race pave or thereabouts.
And a good one to do up and down a shallow gradient on a good grass surface where the body can learn to flush out lactic before hitting the heavy hill sessions.
A lot in common with my independently-developed approach, which I personally refer to as Pace Interval training. Others have described it similarly for decades.
Move it to a gym-standard 15% treadmill and you're getting close to my 'secret'! On such a gradient, anyone can fill their legs with lactic in one minute if they push the speed up 1 or 2 kph. Then reduce the speed to the fastest speed at which you can recover for one minute. I usually use 2kph differential, eg 8.5/10.5kph (for women you'll be close to English Champ with that.. my first go was at 7.0/8.5 I think ~ a couple of weeks before I have definitive records though). The first time, start slow, aim for 15 minutes, and if it's too easy then keep adding 0.1-0.2kph each session until it's pretty hard.
A big goal of the session is to judge what pace you can manage for the whole 15 minutes from your first 3 minutes (slow/fast/slow).
Believe me, this session hurts if you do it properly! You're working on lactate tolerance, lactate buffering, lactate removal/use, and breathing/chest/heart muscles all in one go, plus maximum running & energy efficiency in your recovery interval.
Eventually, if you go for ultimate pace, you need to maintain good technique in the fast intervals, and leg power/muscle glycogen becomes the limiting factor; at this point it is probably a less effective session & the intervals need serious revision, although I'm more likely to shift training outdoors then.
Like any interval work, it's good in phases of 4-8 weeks max.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harry H Howgill
Your entire post was well worth reading a number of times, however the section above for me is key for many runners who only have a limited time to train. (That's probably the majority of athletes.) There is loads of info out there on training plans for elites and those with loads of time, but on the adaptation of those programmes for those on limited time there isn't as much. It is a really interesting topic.
For those faced with a schedule that calls for 5-6 days of running, it can be a difficult decision as to what to drop if you only have 3-4 days a week to train. Yours is good guidance.
Hi Harry
Ive come across one or two schedules for say 20-40 mpw looking to improve in races. Ill try and dig one out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andy k
Turlough - really interesting posts.
just a bit confused by use of % paces
eg
marathon pace = 6 minute mile
90% of marathon pace = ( 6 / 90 ) x 100 = 6:40 minute mile. Correct ?
Sorry Andy, missed your post. It would be 10% slower i.e 6:36 pace, or pace multiplied by 1.1.
The coach in question describes all the paces like this, and i had forgotten the anomaly.
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Originally Posted by
LissaJous
A lot in common with my independently-developed approach, which I personally refer to as Pace Interval training. Others have described it similarly for decades.
Move it to a gym-standard 15% treadmill and you're getting close to my 'secret'! On such a gradient, anyone can fill their legs with lactic in one minute if they push the speed up 1 or 2 kph. Then reduce the speed to the fastest speed at which you can recover for one minute. I usually use 2kph differential, eg 8.5/10.5kph (for women you'll be close to English Champ with that.. my first go was at 7.0/8.5 I think ~ a couple of weeks before I have definitive records though). The first time, start slow, aim for 15 minutes, and if it's too easy then keep adding 0.1-0.2kph each session until it's pretty hard.
A big goal of the session is to judge what pace you can manage for the whole 15 minutes from your first 3 minutes (slow/fast/slow).
Believe me, this session hurts if you do it properly! You're working on lactate tolerance, lactate buffering, lactate removal/use, and breathing/chest/heart muscles all in one go, plus maximum running & energy efficiency in your recovery interval.
Eventually, if you go for ultimate pace, you need to maintain good technique in the fast intervals, and leg power/muscle glycogen becomes the limiting factor; at this point it is probably a less effective session & the intervals need serious revision, although I'm more likely to shift training outdoors then.
Like any interval work, it's good in phases of 4-8 weeks max.
Thats a very tough session!
It sounds very adaptable in that you can work on increasing both speeds or one at a time. If powerf becomes the limiting factor you can keep effectiveness of the session by upping the recovery pace only, to squeeze another session or two out. Do you find the paces get closer together as you go through the sessions? I suppose all is governed by how hard the hard minutes are.
My season starts in mid April, so might get cracking on a few of these before the intervals get longer and very specific.
When you go outdoors do you then use a descent as the "recovery" portion to gradually make the session more specific? Making the reps longer to start working on specific endurance for racing?
Lactate buffering/tolerance and re-use sessions have been around for decades. I guess the difference with Canovas approach to it is that the particlar session is heavily concerned with its re-use @ marathon race pace, which ahd been overlooked for thsi event previously. And any session which slows down the rate of glygogen depletion is gold in an event where this rate is a major limiter of race pace.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turlough
Thats a very tough session!
It sounds very adaptable in that you can work on increasing both speeds or one at a time. If power becomes the limiting factor you can keep effectiveness of the session by upping the recovery pace only, to squeeze another session or two out. Do you find the paces get closer together as you go through the sessions? I suppose all is governed by how hard the hard minutes are.
In theory, yes, just increase the recovery speed, but realistically one will have to make the hard intervals longer to build up a high lactate state without running too fast ~ in which case the session gets longer. But: (a) I wanted to keep the session focused on the recovery interval, and (b) I wanted to keep a limit on treadmill use. Not to mention (c) I have always preferred, maybe too much, short/fast/repeatable sessions.
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When you go outdoors do you then use a descent as the "recovery" portion to gradually make the session more specific? Making the reps longer to start working on specific endurance for racing?
If you have a nice mountain nearby, then I'd use that. I have the Minffordd path up Cader Idris, average gradient well over 20%, uneven stone steps near the bottom and boulders near the top. The various steep sections give me the hard intervals, and you have to keep going as best you can afterwards. I find this a lot more motivating than going up and down a slope. Last time, I sprinted past a large group of people as there was only one small opportunity to get past, and it took me at least 5 minutes to recover! The 25-30 minutes downhill is my plyometrics/be-more-crazy training...
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Lactate buffering/tolerance and re-use sessions have been around for decades. I guess the difference with Canovas approach to it is that the particlar session is heavily concerned with its re-use @ marathon race pace, which ahd been overlooked for thsi event previously.
As with mine: the key was to induce recovery from a lactate-heavy state, at a race-relevant pace. I'm surprised no-one had thought to apply it to marathons!
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turlough
This produces some lactic in the muscles, which can potentially be re-used. The body is taught to use the lactic during the slower alternation....i.e the body learns to re-use lactic at around marathon race pace. So this session produces surprisingly better results than youd expect because there is more goimg on under the bonnet. This elite session doesnt translate to us slower runners, because we dont run hard enough at MP to produce enough lactic to have those benefits. A bloody good one for the half though!
And a good on to do up and down a shallow gradient on a good grass surface where the body can learn to flush out lactic before hitting the heavy hill sessions.
This parallels a key session that i used to do back in the day. I determined the session for the very purpose you identify. Ability to dip into anaerobic effort and then recover whilst still racing hard.
The session started with sharp full effort hill loops - about 10 seconds effort, roll straight back down the hill , so the short hill loop took about 30 seconds
repeat this six times consecutively. At the end of the sixth, no break, continue the climb at high tempo effort (keeping just below anaerobic threshold) - 5 minutes long climb.
Then jog back down to the bottom
repeat the whole lot two more times.
wobble home, eat.
killer session but worth it, broke me a record.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andy k
This parallels a key session that i used to do back in the day. I determined the session for the very purpose you identify. Ability to dip into anaerobic effort and then recover whilst still racing hard.
The session started with sharp full effort hill loops - about 10 seconds effort, roll straight back down the hill , so the short hill loop took about 30 seconds
repeat this six times consecutively. At the end of the sixth, no break, continue the climb at high tempo effort (keeping just below anaerobic threshold) - 5 minutes long climb.
Then jog back down to the bottom
repeat the whole lot two more times.
wobble home, eat.
killer session but worth it, broke me a record.
THese are some hill sprints that Canova advocates for different types of runners. The last one, to increase strenght endurance looks a lot like your idea, so your record breaking methods are backed by current elite marathon coaches! What lenght was the race you targetted?
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Agile, high frequency runner: Sprints of 60/100m with a gradient of 15% about, where they push very hard, trying long steps, for developing strenght.
(At the end of every session they go for a run of 400/500m climbing, at their max. speed (only once). This type of training has the task of using soon your strenght in direction of strenght-endurance.
100m or over of sprint, but use a hill of about 8/10 % lasting 20/25 sec. i to improve their frequency, seeking more rapidity with a good reaction in their feet, (that are not very elastic.)
Short sprints of about 40m, with a gradient of more than 30% (ramps), only for improving strenght
Runners already very strong: try to develop STRENGHT-ENDURANCE, no strenght or rapidity, already at good level.
Slim runner with long strides. Use short sprints climbing (about 15% of gradient) twice a week, going with very high knees and high frequency.
Dev. strenght-endurance: At the end of every hill sprint session go for a run of 400/500m climbing, at max. speed (only once). This type of training has the task of using soon your strenght in direction of strenght-endurance.
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Originally Posted by
IainR
Thank god.. I'm also similarly challenged.. but either way it's 6:36 or 6:40.. 10% of 6:00 is 0:36.. so 10% slower is 6:36.. or 6:00/9*10 = 6:40..
which in incidentally what I do most of my long runs at.. well 85-90%.. never worked it out by that just happens to be around 6:35-6:45 pace..
I like the idea of reps in the pace, but that's essentially the old Charlie Spedding session isn't it.. reps at marathon pace with recovery at ~ 1 min off that.. so I do 6 min/mile and 7 min mile recovery..
Recovery pace is significantly faster: around 6:40 (only 10% slower than race pace) to make the session more specific and harder (pace is at RP for most of the session and never dropping below 10% RP for the entire session). I took a snapshot of the training paces calculated for a six minute mile marathon for teh different phases. The fundamental phase has a lot of the short medium and long tempo, progression runs as well as sessions, (reps 10k pace at the very fastest, apart from uphill sprints, strides etc). The LOng run you do continues all the way to the specific phase (once every 3 weeks there).
training paces below, also a sample 3 weeks in this article
*Note there is an INtroductory phase of 8-10 weeks before the fundamental phase the elites do which includes circuits mixed with HM paces reps (400s), weights and some long runs.
Some of the sessions arent relvant to anyone slower than 2:10, id wager eg the 45-50 k run, 30k pace run etc. but knowing the progression of session paces through the phases to the race pace sessions are useful i think.
Attachment 6751
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Thanks.. will have a read... have a 100k in March so that's dominating but will try to focus on a fall marathon..
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Turlough, one thing I always wonder is how many miles a week, during regular training, would you suggest to do at or above MP.. I reckon at the moment I'm in the 5-10% region, unless I have a race on.
At the moment I'm increasing my mileage to consistently 90 a week. Basically it's 1 20+ miler, 1 14/15 miler midweek, 2 effort sessions, reps 2-6 minutes normally, lasting around 25 mins of actual effort, then maybe a different hard session/hills or 4 mile tempo at around 1/2 M pace..
Then days of steady doubles or 8-12 milers at aound 6:30-6:45 pace..
The only quick marathons I've done have been 2:42 but with 1200ft of ascent in both, Boston was flat but 30 Deg C so I ran 2:44, so I reckon I should be aiming 2:36-2:38 ish when I next focus on one..
I now do much more road work or at least good trail, I do most of my running around 6:30-7:30 min miles, so rarely run on the fell, especially in the states, but even in the UK only use fell runs as steady runs a few days a week unless starting to focus on the fells again..
Morning 6-8 milers will normally be done slower, maybe around 8, depends how sore I am. Yesterday for example, raced a half m. trail race sunday so did 6 very easy (9:00's) early on and then 7 last night back at 7:00 as the run progressed as I was feeling better.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IainR
Turlough, one thing I always wonder is how many miles a week, during regular training, would you suggest to do at or above MP.. I reckon at the moment I'm in the 5-10% region, unless I have a race on.
I'm not complaining about it, but the thread's turning into road running for fellrunners!
An addition to Iain's comments: how much of the training would you expect to be on road? That tends to be a limiting factor for me.
BTW Turlough, remember your specific, specific, specific? What's specific to fell & mountain running is an element of variability, quite a big element if your season includes short and long races. If I've been running my treadmill session, that's a lot of training at 15%. The progression (for me) would be to steeper work outdoors, but for uphill-only races the average gradient is more like 10%, so you'd need speed work on 10% and gentler gradients.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
I think much/most? fell running, by many runners is done too slowly.. too easily.. too enjoyable.. its important to enjoy sessions but not too many.. I also used to make the opposite mistake of fell runs therefore being 'easy runs'... so an easy day would be a steady plod up Siabod.. but that's still 2500ft of climbing but more importantly 2500ft of descent..
It is for me, but people stop for pictures and think they are working harder than they are.. we're all different in how we train of course.
On the road its much more honest, no hiding.
Even after long periods of road running I found I could still climb steep things just as well after a few specific sessions, for example for the Ben I used to do efforts on Elidir.. the one thing I lost was descending and find it now takes 2-3 races to get back to a reasonable pace.. but I now descend much slower than I used to on rough stuff.. not sure if that's injuries/wear and tear/sense or lack of specific fell work..
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IainR
.. but I now descend much slower than I used to on rough stuff.. not sure if that's injuries/wear and tear/sense or lack of specific fell work..
...thinking about it too much ....
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuffer
...thinking about it too much ....
Probably..
Also when I was talking about road work.. and not needing to be too fell specific..
That's probably different where you do your road running.. in the UK most of my running is peak or snowdonia.. the peaks generally hillier roads, but with both its easy to do 1000ft of ascent in 10 miles on the road.. so you get plenty of hill training in without really meaning too..
I'm now moving to the german plain so flat = proper flat, and I reckon I'll have to search for the hills much more.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
There's enough talk about road-runners turning up and stealing results at Snowdon or in trials races, etc.
And there are plenty of stunning examples if you count the 10%-ish uphill races I mentioned:
Andrea Mayr, 2012, 100% focus on the marathon for the Olympics (to the extent that one highly knowledgeable commentator asked me rhetorically where she had been the last year-and-a-half; as it happened I did have an answer!). Then a few weeks later she's mountain running world champion, with a 30-second margin.
Jonathan Wyatt did the same in 2004, I'm not sure he was 100% focused on the marathon though, but he only had one week to recover! He won the WMRA race by over a minute..
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IainR
Turlough, one thing I always wonder is how many miles a week, during regular training, would you suggest to do at or above MP.. I reckon at the moment I'm in the 5-10% region, unless I have a race on.
At the moment I'm increasing my mileage to consistently 90 a week. Basically it's 1 20+ miler, 1 14/15 miler midweek, 2 effort sessions, reps 2-6 minutes normally, lasting around 25 mins of actual effort, then maybe a different hard session/hills or 4 mile tempo at around 1/2 M pace..
Then days of steady doubles or 8-12 milers at aound 6:30-6:45 pace..
The only quick marathons I've done have been 2:42 but with 1200ft of ascent in both, Boston was flat but 30 Deg C so I ran 2:44, so I reckon I should be aiming 2:36-2:38 ish when I next focus on one..
I now do much more road work or at least good trail, I do most of my running around 6:30-7:30 min miles, so rarely run on the fell, especially in the states, but even in the UK only use fell runs as steady runs a few days a week unless starting to focus on the fells again..
Morning 6-8 milers will normally be done slower, maybe around 8, depends how sore I am. Yesterday for example, raced a half m. trail race sunday so did 6 very easy (9:00's) early on and then 7 last night back at 7:00 as the run progressed as I was feeling better.
That looks good Iain.
I use the general rule that anything above 10% faster than race pace is speedwork and for mechanical purposes only.
5-10% seems about right. I do a large variety of sessions in the general phase.
Some sessions might have only some portions dipping under MP.
I do Two types:
Shorter ones to build aerobic power: e.g 10 X 1k 2 mins rest, 20-40 mins tempo/progression. 6-10k tempo uphill.
Longer fast ones to build resistance: inc. Medium tempos/progression runs: 40-60 min @95-105% MP And inc. Long tempos/progression 60-90 min (85-100%) race pace.(15@85%,15@90% etc).
That’s where we might approach it differently. You do both sessions in the aerobic power range. Id do one of aerobic powera nd aerobic resistance per week. Not counting the long runs which are good and are resistance too ofcourse. You know better than anyone what suits you but that’s the structure I use.
I imagine a general attack on the aerobic system through a variety of paces. I try and do a different session each time so the body doesn’t get “good” at a particular session and adapt less to it.
If you’re training on your own this can increase the fun factor and maintain consistant the interest. That and the high mileage should put good pressure everyw eek. But you should have that feeling of pressure and a constant slight fatique. I think personally if youre in the 2:30-40 range the general phase is key as aerobic conditioning development has greater potential. As the times get lower, more gains can be made by running more specifically. I suppose it depends on how your aerobic conditioning is. But it should be maxed at all speeds not just slower and faster ones. Thats where those 40-90 minute fast runs come in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LissaJous
I'm not complaining about it, but the thread's turning into road running for fellrunners!
An addition to Iain's comments: how much of the training would you expect to be on road? That tends to be a limiting factor for me.
In general, IMO anything within 15% of MP should be done on the road preferably to make the running as specific as possible. When youre in general training this is not quite as important as youre looking at intensities to get you fitter. i.e youre more concerned with the internal loads on your system. Even then sessions should be done on road and tempos at least on fast trail.
As the running gets more specific then anything faster than 15% race pace should be done on road or good trails. Recovery runs and long easy maintenance runs can be done as you like and should always be enjoyable where possible IMO.
Quote:
BTW Turlough, remember your specific, specific, specific? What's specific to fell & mountain running is an element of variability, quite a big element if your season includes short and long races. If I've been running my treadmill session, that's a lot of training at 15%. The progression (for me) would be to steeper work outdoors, but for uphill-only races the average gradient is more like 10%, so you'd need speed work on 10% and gentler gradients.
I remember! A general phase should stimulate your aerobic system from many angles. This can and should apply to fell running just as easily or more so than marathon running for the As discussed aerobic power and resistance need to be developed. These sessions can be alternated between various hill gradients and flat. 2 on hills per week, id say. On the treadmill you could do every second tempo run on a gradient from 4-9 %. Longer tempos can be done on hilly road. A long fell run should obviously be included 3-4 times a month if possible, otherwise it’s the bike or Turbo. But long steady runs over hilly road have their place too at this stage. 10 X 3 mins is one session that could be done on a threadmill at a lowish gradient 3-6%.
In the British champs this year over 5 months there is a very tough medium race to start followed by a short and medium with a long race to finish. That’s a big divergence in race distances and types but we can still make the training specific. I would suggest a (very) long fell run/cycle in the general phase would have to have the distant long target in mind. Maybe every second run going long and the alternate being shorter but run a little harder. This would suit also the first race (Medium but a lot of climbing and descending). I would want to be able to do 20 mile hard hilly road runs in this phase too, once a month with weekly similar medium long runs.
In the next phase (special phase) youre threadmill session would fit nicely in to develop lactate buffering/re-use that youll need to complete your specific sessions well. Sessions are a little more specific but with more than 1 race in mind e.g 10 X 2 mins uphill on different hills. Or 6 X 10 mins uphill (slower than upcoming race pace, jog down recovery). The faster long fell run is now faster and over a shorter specific course to Race 1. As you can see the sessions are gradually getting more specific to the first race but the very long fell run/ cycle is maintained every second week, with the endurance necessities of the Long race very relevant even this far out.
The flat or low gradient flat sessions are maintained by alternation. Leg speed and cadence must be maintained. Adjust road/fell proportion of training to achieve this.
As the first race approaches the sessions get specific. The short hill session gets longer and on specific terrain. if racing time is 80 mins, extend a hill session to 200metres hard up and fast down for 50 minutes, run a similar course at race effort for 66% race distance 3 weeks out,a s two possible specific endurance sessions. The long run might only be 125% of race length, over relavent terrain with some at race pace or close. So shorter sessions are getting longer (power is extended at race pace) and longer runs get faster (extensive runs become more powerful). Each session specific but complimenting the other.
The older sessions are alternated including your lactate hill session to support the specific hill sessions. One longer run at 60% distance of your normal long run to maintain endurance with the distant race in mind.
After race 1 sessions become specific to race 2, topping up on speed and power as necessary and keeping the long run with the Long race 4 in mind until close to race time.
Ill level with you the longest fell type race ive done (not counting Sierre Zinal) took me two hours and only because I got lost and went around a lake the wrong way!
But the principle: The most important training is that which is specific to the race: all other training supports specific training, still holds.
In the pre-specific phases sessions might have to be prioritised based on their benefit to all upcoming races. Some specific sessions may have to be left out, eg some specific sessions for race one to 3 to facilitate a long maintenance fell runs with race 4 in mind. But these long runs can be made more specific by doing them on terrain similar to upcoming shorter races.
The uphill only race training would resemble flat training in that aerobic power would be developed and extended to eventually resemble specific uphill sessions. If in the midst of other races, the specific phase would be altered with an emphasis including good surfaces as these races are generally held on good trails, and some flat sessions to regain leg turnover.
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Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance
Spelling it out in quite a lot of detail.... :D :rolleyes:
Quite sensible for a focus on the British, although terrain plays a part: for most of the races, fast-walking-up-steep-grassy-hills is what you need. Silent Valley's not that hard! :rolleyes: About the same as Three Shires.. And with Peris being off the end in September, you don't need to worry too much about losing some of the flat/short speed you may have had earlier in the year.
Given people's (no names!) often excessive/complicated seasons, some races inevitably get de-prioritized and receive little specific training.
And finally, June has usually been a mid-season break for me, conceptually if not literally ~ best race results not expected, and many of those earlier sessions revisited.
