Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[Twister]

That's the beauty of being in a club/group of good runners..

It was something we never had in North Wales really, well with Menai for a bit..

But over in the states I've had a group in Texas, and elite track clubs in Boston and Philly to train with..

You turn up, tired leggy.. you chat with everyone, have a laugh, do a few miles warm up, all your stretching, which you'd (I'd) never do properly on my own, blast out your reps, and the way the US people are it is all incredibly positive... none of the UK put downs.. lots of encouragement, then you do your cool down, more chats and a laugh.. 8-10 mile sessions, normally a good 3-4 miles of hard efforts.. really enjoyable session.

In TX we had a group of 20-30, from 13-50 year olds, all standards and we'd just divide into groups, we had runners from olympic marathon standard down to people doing 2 hr halfmarathons.. so the full range.. incredible sessions with a great coach.

I used to be in a club in the UK but we never did any specific sessions in the club, although if you wanted to do some intervals there'd always be a faster runner that would help. Since moving to France I run on my own, with the very occasional run with my partner.

Even though I have to self motivate I find that I really enjoy speedier sessions. I really love gritted teeth sustained hard efforts up hill.

[Turlough]

These debates go round and round in circles because everyone knows an approach that seemed to work that a coach, athlete or they used at some point in their athletic career. So it is impossible to come to a sound consensus.

I doubt many on here are doing the maximum amount of training their body can cope with. Therefore there is potential for improvement. Training adaptation and performing better for most would be akin to a tube of toothpaste; where ever you squeeze the tube from you will get some out. However if you want to get every last bit of paste/potential out you have to be clever and roll it from the end. The best way to do this is the method I have suggested. I know this because the vast majority of elite endurance athletes do the same. Now this does not mean that Bob round the corner wont improve by doing moderate intensity runs ever over day, it just means that he wont go as far with the potential he has.

I thought i heard that toothpaste anology before: It was in an article by Hadd a US endurance coach. He maintained that aerobic develooment should be maxed at the lower aerobic ranges (squeezing from the bottom) before adding runs at consecutively higher HRs (getting all the paste) including LT. At this stage Specific training is added to the mix. Now you ahve implied that our fictional runner Bob could continue to improve running aerobically but will do better employing the methods you suggest.

So If Bob has 5 hrs to run per week and has developed his aerobic condition to 75%, you suggest cutting the aerobic work and starting work from 85-100% MAX HR?
Why? Why shouldnt Bob finish maximising his aerobic potential (for a 5 hr week) to 100% and then adds the sharper stuff? Clearly hell reach a higher level of fitness.Why leave 25% of the paste in the tube unnessarily?

Work within the range of 85-100% Max HR is essential, and you have to be able to perform in these sessions. Not half baked because you are trying to get to 100 miles for the week. Some elite Marathon runners can run a whole marathon at 85-90% of their max heart rate, so ambling along at 70% is a waste of time.
Now the aerobic base you talk of is mainly a result of two physiological adaptations. 1 - An increase in mitochondria density 2 - Increase efficiency of fat metabolism. These two can both be achieved at 50-60% of max heart rate, i.e. an easy run.

Increase in mitochondria density/Increase efficiency of fat metabolism
Running at 50-60% HR uses less than 20% of the muscle fibres available and crucially uses the same 20%. It is not optimal, but at these paces you will get adaptions in other fibres by only by running very very long over a very very long period. Bob doesnt have the time and cant aford to leave even more toothpaste in the tube.. The optimal method for both runners to achive these adaptions is to develop maximum efficiency/mith density by running at all aerobic paces (allowing for a time constraint of 5 hrs) in Bobs case. Running short uphill sprints at 100% effort can also help utilize more fibres (almost all) and make them and their fuel available for recruitment.

The fuel mix sentence makes little sense to me I am afraid. What ever intensity you run at you will burn both Fat and Glycogen, its just the proportions that change

Lets look at your assertion about the importance of 85-100% MAX HR training with reference to the marathon (the event you mentioned).

Firstly the fuel mix again because this is hugely relevant to the marathon: there will be a certain exact proportion of Fat and Glycogen a runner burns at his marathon pace. It is now understood that burning fat alone at slow paces will not cause as much adaption beneficial to marathon pace as spending a lot of time running in lipid ranges within 10% of marathon race pace. The body needs to be good at burning the correct proportion of Running at all Aerobic paces (Lydiard, Canova) will make the body become efficient at burning mixtures at all proportions. The benefits of this training is obvious: The benefits of developing it for burning fuel efficiently up and down hills at different intensities should be even more obvious.

Benefits or otherwise of 95-100% of MAX HR for marathon:
As we know making your glycogen stores last the marathon distance is essential, and this effectively governs your effort level in this race. Doing work around VO2 max or faster not only burns up glycogen at a huge rate, but disastrously teaches the body to burn up glycogen more quickly. If you regard this training as "essential" and do it in the vital final phase before a marathon, you will either have to slow your pace relative to your alower glycogen burning competitors who train at specific paces in this phase. Or else you can run at their pace and fade painfully and horribly at 30k which was the fate of many 80s marathoners using these methods. You MUST teach the body to burn the correct proportion of fuels and above all you MUST NOT teach the body to burn glycogen more quickly which will inevitably happen when an athlete trains as you suggest for a marathon.

What is an example of specific training for the marathon for Elites? 4 X 6k @ Marathon Pace(MP) 1k @ 90% MP recovery. Specific, specific, specific.
What did the elite have to do in the preceding phase to eb able to do this session? 6 X 3k @ HM pace, 32k @ 95% MP.
And the preceding phase? Build power to be extended later: 20-40 minute hard tempo, 10 X 1k @ 10k pace, 2 min rec. etc. Build Resistance: 2hrs -2hrs 45 @ 80% MP.
This assumes that aerobic conditioning ahs been maximised over many years of high mileage (100-140 mpw)

These tarining philosophies are not just from any coach: They are from the coaches who train the top marathoners in the world. Ryan Hall will use these methods with his new Coach Canova.

In our club we have 2 lads who ran well under 2:20 in the Autumn. I know one of them doesnt do any training faster than 110% MP (as above) apart from light speedwork.

Would i recommend this to Bob because the Elites do it, absolutely not!!!!
What would i recommend for Bob?
1. Maximise aerobic potential given the time he has by running at different aerobic paces
2. develop aerobic power on the flat and uphill to prepare him for extending that power for the event. Also Do long terrain runs.
3. EXtend the hill and flats essions to match the event/s. Reps get longer, recovery relatively shorter (faster descending). Long runs get faster.

For a 1hr fell race. Bob will be able to climb and descend strongly in races: noticably getting stronger than his competitors as the race progresses. He has trained to do this strongly for 45 minutes in specific sessions.
Some of his competitors may have power from MAX HR sessions: it wont last ....they lack the ability to extend this Power at race pace. Thay have not trained specifically or optimally for the event.

[CL]

Sorry Christopher it's just nice to vent it somewhere, i don't tend to vent it with people because they tend to react like you do.

Come on Mr B stop feeling sorry for yourself all the time its wearing me out. Be optimistic and get involved in the debate instead of looking for opportunities to create sympathy.

[CL]

Yes, it's almost a rule-of-thumb for me that at the end of a training session, I should feel like I want to go further, or certainly after a few minutes recovery.

After my toughest/maximal interval sessions, naturally I need to stop at the end (... and breathe!), but 15 minutes later I feel on a massive high. And a bit dizzy. Once I tried repeating the interval work, and my legs absolutely didn't allow it! These days I have a rule: I'll be planning a number of intervals. If my legs are reaching total exhaustion I'll stop early (otherwise my next session will be compromised), but I'll never add intervals. I may bump the speed up or steal seconds out of my recovery intervals if it's too easy. Note: total exhaustion in legs is I presume when the muscle glycogen is all gone, and (whatever the cause), will take 2 or 3 days to recover compared to ~1 day if I stop just a fraction earlier.

And as I mentioned in my first post in the thread, my first priority when feeling bouncy is recovery drink / followed by food. That evening bounce is a vital opportunity for your body to absorb nutrients. Leave it too long and it's replaced by tiredness/sleepiness.

Lissa I think we see things in a similar way. Arthur Jones (inventor of the Nautilus exercise equipment in the early 70s) once wrote that when you are very fit you can finish a hard session and after a short recovery be quite capable of doing it again. He was talking about high intensity weight training which is extremely gruelling but of course you can apply it to running. He finished his statement by writing that although you could do the session again you shouldn't do it again. He knew that the purpose of training was to stimulate the required physiological changes and once you'd done that further effort was not only futile but the extra effort would eat into precious recovery ability.

Jones' theoretical work is genius and consequently very few people can understand or even make an effort to understand. The one's that do and put it into practise will be rewarded with a method that is unbeatable.

[LissaJous]

What is an example of specific training for the marathon for Elites? 4 X 6k @ Marathon Pace(MP) 1k @ 90% MP recovery. Specific, specific, specific.
What did the elite have to do in the preceding phase to eb able to do this session? 6 X 3k @ HM pace, 32k @ 95% MP.
And the preceding phase? Build power to be extended later: 20-40 minute hard tempo, 10 X 1k @ 10k pace, 2 min rec. etc. Build Resistance: 2hrs -2hrs 45 @ 80% MP.
This assumes that aerobic conditioning ahs been maximised over many years of high mileage (100-140 mpw)

Turlough, I have much appreciated your posts too, as so much of my training is near race-pace, including a considerable element of intervalised work just above race-pace, (sometimes with recovery just under race-pace). And nearer races my training is much more race-specific, as you say.

Did you mean 32km@95% Marathon pace though? Often?! It sounds a bit tough!

I guess I would want to add that, by making my body restore glycogen levels quickly and often, I am hoping to boost the max amount that my body can store, but yes your point about potentially teaching your body to burn glycogen too quickly is interesting. Incidentally, I avoid using energy drinks for the vast majority of my training.

Meanwhile, this month I'm getting to grips with the psychology of keeping my steady runs steady ~ not a problem when everything's going well, but a major challenge if you keep comparing training times now with those at peak form last year!

[noel]

Come on Mr B stop feeling sorry for yourself all the time its wearing me out. Be optimistic and get involved in the debate instead of looking for opportunities to create sympathy.

I feel sorry for Mr B when you're so hard on him CL.

[Harry H Howgill]

.

Would i recommend this to Bob because the Elites do it, absolutely not!!!!
What would i recommend for Bob?
1. Maximise aerobic potential given the time he has by running at different aerobic paces
2. develop aerobic power on the flat and uphill to prepare him for extending that power for the event. Also Do long terrain runs.
3. EXtend the hill and flats essions to match the event/s. Reps get longer, recovery relatively shorter (faster descending). Long runs get faster.

For a 1hr fell race. Bob will be able to climb and descend strongly in races: noticably getting stronger than his competitors as the race progresses. He has trained to do this strongly for 45 minutes in specific sessions.
Some of his competitors may have power from MAX HR sessions: it wont last ....they lack the ability to extend this Power at race pace. Thay have not trained specifically or optimally for the event.

Your entire post was well worth reading a number of times, however the section above for me is key for many runners who only have a limited time to train. (That's probably the majority of athletes.) There is loads of info out there on training plans for elites and those with loads of time, but on the adaptation of those programmes for those on limited time there isn't as much. It is a really interesting topic.

For those faced with a schedule that calls for 5-6 days of running, it can be a difficult decision as to what to drop if you only have 3-4 days a week to train. Yours is good guidance.

[Turlough]

Turlough, I have much appreciated your posts too, as so much of my training is near race-pace, including a considerable element of intervalised work just above race-pace, (sometimes with recovery just under race-pace). And nearer races my training is much more race-specific, as you say.

Did you mean 32km@95% Marathon pace though? Often?! It sounds a bit tough!

I guess I would want to add that, by making my body restore glycogen levels quickly and often, I am hoping to boost the max amount that my body can store, but yes your point about potentially teaching your body to burn glycogen too quickly is interesting. Incidentally, I avoid using energy drinks for the vast majority of my training.


Meanwhile, this month I'm getting to grips with the psychology of keeping my steady runs steady ~ not a problem when everything's going well, but a major challenge if you keep comparing training times now with those at peak form last year!

Its an extremely tough session! In that phase the athletes also do a 50k run @ 85% marathon pace, a 20k run @ race pace etc and thats nkt even the specific phase.

These are 140mpw elite athletes. Mortals wont make these sessions. The 32k run would be a base for the long MP intervals to follow.

Interesting about not taking on energy. The runner who went 2.17 in the autumn did 2 40k easy runs in the hills with only water. He said he had difficulty keeping drinks down during more intense running. Apart from water he had only one slug of flat coke during his marathon!


I have an excel calculator for calculating sessions and paces for particular inputted marathon times. Which i can share when im on my pc. Very interested in the weights stuff for power to weight gains.

The max intensity uphill sprints mentioned are similar To your fatigue to max weight training. They fatigue all muscle fibres and make all the glycogen avsilable. They are very adaptable. After an easy of moderate run twice a week. Or during a session. E.g 15 x 8 s all out uphill (to fatigue legs maximally) then 20 min tempo/40-60 minute marathon pace (on flat first then uphill). Your body will try and acquire glygogen from any available source, and youll have made a lot of sources available after the uphill sprints.

Also you can use the sprints for tecnique while youre at it: if you take light fast steps normally then push hard with long strides to develop strenght, or lift knees with fast cadence for leg speed etc etc.

The elite marathoners also do a long 35k run @ 90 % MP. These includes 5 x 2k @ HM pace near the latter part. The athetes run out of glycogen after 2-3 reps. But they must continue. The adaptions from the last couple of reps get the runner a few minutes further up the road on glycogen come race day.
A session to weep before as well as after, and tougher again knowing that a kind of failure is guaranteed.

[andy k]

Turlough - really interesting posts.
just a bit confused by use of % paces
eg
marathon pace = 6 minute mile
90% of marathon pace = ( 6 / 90 ) x 100 = 6:40 minute mile. Correct ?

[IainR]

Turlough - really interesting posts.
just a bit confused by use of % paces
eg
marathon pace = 6 minute mile
90% of marathon pace = ( 6 / 90 ) x 100 = 6:40 minute mile. Correct ?

Thank god.. I'm also similarly challenged.. but either way it's 6:36 or 6:40.. 10% of 6:00 is 0:36.. so 10% slower is 6:36.. or 6:00/9*10 = 6:40..

which in incidentally what I do most of my long runs at.. well 85-90%.. never worked it out by that just happens to be around 6:35-6:45 pace..

I like the idea of reps in the pace, but that's essentially the old Charlie Spedding session isn't it.. reps at marathon pace with recovery at ~ 1 min off that.. so I do 6 min/mile and 7 min mile recovery..