I think Harrymoon was correct - Jebby was on Leg 2 - and how would Bingley have 2 guys on Leg 4:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by gazj1979
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I think Harrymoon was correct - Jebby was on Leg 2 - and how would Bingley have 2 guys on Leg 4:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by gazj1979
I was doing the 3rd leg until my partner turned his ankle badly between CP's 4 & 5......about as far away from HQ's as we could get :( .
Many thanks to all who offered us help, extra clothing etc. We got by with our own kit, but were very appreciative of all offers on what was a bit of a grim day on the hills.
Enjoyed the day & thought organisation was great. Felt sorry for the leading 3 teams who were DQ'd.
Like at Tebay;)Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Why do some people feel sorry for the teams that failed to complete the course.
We should be saying well done to the organisers for up holding the rules.:)
Also lets make the navigation a true test, it all part of our sport.:)
Me thinks we have too many sheep in some events:eek:
A nav test..what like an orienteering leg....Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
Of course I feel sorry for them, their teams had cracking runs to put them in that position, look at Mercia's nav time..
Fantastic organisation. Good route planning and great weather. Proper fell running. That's what we like in Dark Peak.
Flagged non navigation courses? Rubbish. What next, guides.
The weather conditions yesterday were server but I still saw numerous runners on leg two in vests and not using a map and compass. Fell running isn't a fair weather sport and it's our own personal responsibility to make sure we have the adequate mountain skills
Well done SO, I'm so jealous just you wait till I catch you up (in years that is):p:DQuote:
Originally Posted by The Safety Officer
Did you remember the book this time??
top effort:D
Headless is too modest to say that he did the Round Rotherham 50 on Saturday in 8.45 or thereabouts so even making it to the start of Leg 3 was something of a triumph. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Headless
We had a decent trot round together, no big mistakes and we went as fast as we could, which wasn't that fast.
I guess you won't miss that deep heather though Eddie; bad for tired legs. :eek:
Well done to CFR, very well organised, another great day out.
Ilkley ladies and lady vets decimated by illness and injury last week. The final runner was slotted into place at 6.10 am on Sunday morning. Well done to her for supporting the team effort.
The lack of consistency in applying the rules is laughable. How can the first four at Tebay blatantly miss the first checkpoint (which was clearly visible, marshalled by about 10 people, with 2 flags and a couple of quad bikes thrown in for good measure) and not suffer DQ, but then when the first three can't find a checkpoint at the FRAs (which was in thick clag, not where it said on the map and all three runners had a good go at finding it) the ENTIRE TEAM is DQ'd!?!?!? Can someone please explain this to me because I think it stinks.
At Tebay there was a clear advantage in missing Checkpoint 1 as it cut off a climb. Yesterday there was absolutely NO advantage gained by any of the leading teams, and in fact they LOST time trying to find the checkpoint.
This has had real ramifications and while I'm not saying we should apply different rules to the top teams, I think it's a bit different to finishing mid-table or being DQ'd. For instance the medals in both the English Champs AND NOW the FRA relays have now been directly affected by marshalls' / race officials' discretionary decisions.
All I'm asking for is consistency.
No, not orienterring, just navigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
I feel sorry for the other top runners at Tebay who went to the stated positions on the course.
Thanks Ian.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
In Dark peak we are trying address the issue of safety on the fells. For anyone that's interested, if you go to our website and select the 'Safety page', there are links to a few articles some runners might find interesting. All comments or suggestions gratefully accepted
Your statement that the checkpoint wasn't where it should have been is completely wrong - after all, not only did everyone else on leg 4 find it, so did everyone on leg 1, who went to the same point. It was not difficult to find - "fence junction" is as clear a description as you can have. As to finding no time advantage, there was a clear advantage to be had by cutting to the right too early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent
As to consistency in upholding the rules, I couldn't agree more. But when exactly do you think consistency should begin? After this weekend?
So what?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Safety Officer
I looked at the map, memorised, ran around, never used it..
Isn't map memory a navigation skill. It certainly is a skill I talk about when running courses, which as a professional guide is something we do quite a bit of...
And in VESTS..you say VESTS..my god what ever next..wearing trainers in the hills...
Having run in leg 1 in great conditions and with people to follow, I felt a bit left out of all the claggy fun!
Really a great day out - thanks to all the organisers and marshalls.
I don't know if the CP was in the right position, I spoke to people who said it wasn't and people who said it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by marrow
TBH though the reliability of race maps is again an issue..
Look at Tebay, wasn't that the argument there.
And look Leg 2 yesterday. We were all warned over the Tanoy that the CP was 100ft/m? out. Not much but in that clag it was enough. If you heard it wasn't a problem, most if not all probably did (I didn't hear of any issues with it), but that could have also had big ramifications.
I'm not big on flagged courses at all. But I do think there's a time and a place, and I just think the relays are a time and a place..
This stuff like 'Dark Peak true fell running' is just rubbish and condescending clap trap.
Personally I think here they had to DSQ the teams (regardless of Tebay), the rules are simple, had DP/Borrowdale/Calder Valley put in a complaint if the first result had been allowed to stand I think the RO's would have had to upheld their complaint.
Someone mentioned Mercia's time on the NAV leg - I'd be interested to see it.
Leg3: Orienteering Pairs– 5.6 m/1410’ estimated winning time: 60 min
was the published figure.
I did 8 miles - even if you did it "as the Crow Flies" it would have been over 6 miles and I would say the shortest feasible way of getting around it was 7.5.
Ian, I think that those who think it is in the wrong position are those that are not in the right position!Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
How do you know you did 8 miles? Didn't have a GPS on did you?? :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Re Mercia's time. I think it was just shy of the hour (I think all th efirst 3 legs were just shy of their predicted times), 2 class runners I think. I don't know the orienteer but he's supposed to be some hot shot and Andy Davies is a 2:27 marathon runner.
I Google Earthed where we went afterwards and we covered 8 miles including an error at CP1 - and straight-lining all the checkpoints comes out at 6.2 miles without taking in to account the flagged section at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
There are so many things to get right when organising the UKA Relays and I think CFR did a superb job. I thoroughly enjoyed the NAV leg and think it had a good balance of route finding, tricky navigation (under the conditions) and fast running. The facilities and food were very good for this type of event.:D
I hope the injured (marshall / runner(s)) are OK and make a speedy recovery. Well done CFR; thanks very much.
I think there might have been a bit of ambiguity with some of the route instructions (my family were out for a walk and heard Rob Hope getting upset with some of the other front runners for cutting a corner and not going to the GR on the track so that they could then follow the flags up Knock Murton on Leg 4). I think that having the routes checked by several experienced fell runners unfamiliar with the area well in advance is a good idea as it could show up areas of confusion.
I think the disqualification was a very clear and correct decision - you have to dib at all the checkpoints. THe fact that a dubious decision has been made elsewhere doesn't mean that it should become the norm.
I don't agree that the courses should be flagged - the navigation, reccees, ability to find the best route under pressure - are what makes fellrunning different and special (to me at any rate). If people just want to see who's the fastest at running over hilly courses I'm sure there must be marked mountain/trail/cross country races. However, there is a place for flags/tape or whatever if you need to clearly direct runners for environmental / access reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
And Iain, I don't really think that the fact that someone from Dark Peak thought that the event was proper fellrunning was really rubbish and condescending clap trap. It sounds more like an enthusiastic appreciation of a good day out. I don't know where Safety Officer was coming from with the vests and no map/compass out though!? Everyone had more clothes, map and compass with them for if they needed them. Personally, I'm too soft so needed a Helly under my vest but I'm not very fast.
Yes Mercias NAV time was 59 and a bit minutes. I thought we had run quite well and I'm usually about 135% of winners time at the moment but we were 150% of that time. We did make a slight detour just after CP3 but other than that we were pretty spot on but we did stop quite a few times to check the map closely and it obviously all adds up. More practice needed!
[quote=RichT;263487]
And Iain, I don't really think that the fact that someone from Dark Peak thought that the event was proper fellrunning was really rubbish and condescending clap trap.quote]
Personally I think it was a dig that only the true fell runners could cope..
I thought the courses were great, similar to last years, fun running non technical.
We benefited from the missed CP's, almost got 3rd, but deep down we know we were 7th.
It seems to me that on legs 1 2 and 4 local knowledge should not be an advantage, and it clearly was. The route through the forest on leg 4 would only be obvious to someone who has done a recce. Maybe not doing a recce shows a lack of dedication on my part, but its much easier to be that dedicated when it doesn't involve a 5 hour round trip.
That's basically my view on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by freakazoid
The checkpoint was in exactly the correct place, in fact there were 3 dibbing boxes there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent
It was at the fence junction and, as such, was very easy to find.
I was right at the back of the field behind the mass start as I waited for our leg 3 runners
who came in a couple of minutes after the mass start.
The clag was down but even I managed to find it on my own.
Those that missed it were obviously looking in the wrong place.
As a leg 4 runner you've no excuse - both our A & B team runners went up and checked it out on the day - plenty of time to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by freakazoid
Local knowledge has to be an advantage - even on a cross country course or road race, but I think in a Champs like this every effort should be made to make it less so.
Mercia's Fell Leg is unbelievable - I cannot imagine how they covered that terrain so quick - having gone around it - if you'd asked me to guess the quickest time, I would have said 65-70 minutes.
Yes, you were indeed, you nearly had me down into the 'abyss' :eek: as I wanted to step away and you came thundering past...Quote:
Originally Posted by morning glory
Loved the nav leg, firts time for me and no problems at all finding the CP's and to be honest, the clag made it infinitely more interesting as a nav leg. If we had had visibility, it would have been so much easier... but: NEVER follow the leader on the nav... we did not follow anybody, just followed our bearings and stuck with our route choices and suddenly found a bunch of people that were ahead of us coming towards us on our return from CP 4 :D
Tough terrain to 'run' accross though!!!
Such a pitty... we bumped into you/you into us as well when we were heading to CP4. Hope your partner is not too badly crocked? It was good to see you safe and sound and smiling when we finished!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellrunner
Maybe, but i decided to save my energy rather than doing a recce a couple of hours before a race. A personal choice, but surely again an advantage to a local who doesn't need to do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Would more flagging not make local knowledge less so?
This stuff like 'Dark Peak true fell running' is just rubbish and condescending clap trap.
I hope you can read a map better than this forum.
I refered to the course as proper fell running not the club
Well done for putting on a great days running, well organised and really enjoyed the leg 4 race - as for the fence junction for CP1 - that was straight forward and to me an obvious find - and i notorious when racing with a map!
Let's not get into acrimonious discussion on applying the rules - miss the CP and your done, no matter if you challenging for 1st or 141st!!
Thanks to CFR for a great event - tough running (leg 2) but exhilirating to be part of a big event. Anyone know where/when the official results will be posted? Ta (& apologies if I've missed the bleedin' obvious link)
Couldn't agree more Wormstone. Was on the navigation leg. Very enjoyable event.
Suspect results will appear here in time : http://www.c-f-r.org.uk/node/777
GG was top 10 at the World Orienteering Champs this year, and is a 30min 10km runner as well. They didn't even get the best lines every time, as we were just behind them going from CP5 to 6 and they missed the path cutting below the screes and had to climb up to it, making their time even more impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Thanks to CFR for an enjoyable nav leg, made even more tricky by the visibility.
A great event and thanks for organising it.
Navigation wasnt easy and on Leg 4 I struggled a bit finding checkpoint 2.
Tough climb up through the forest:o.
Downside was someone nicked my fleece and baselayer out of the changing area.
I know of someone else who had a coat pinched as well
I mean whats it coming to ? eh eh ?
Anyway I hope the person who nicked my stuff ( enjoy the baselayer thats about nine years old with welding holes in it) . You can pick them up for £20 for gods sake.
The final run in on Leg 4 down the steep side of the fell was brilliant:)
I think I caught it on video. Will get it edited over the next few day and will post a link to youtube on this thread ASAP.Quote:
Originally Posted by harrymoon
Good day out. Thanks CFR.
Sounds very simple Headless. It would appear that Stick 'n I were far more 'eadless than thee on that particular section:confused::mad::oQuote:
Originally Posted by Headless
None of us can turn back the clock so yes why not begin now? there's no time like the present.Quote:
Originally Posted by marrow
Despite being part of the team that would have won I reluctantly accept that the decision was the right one, which must mean that by the same token the decision at Tebay was the wrong one. We cannot have double standards, either the rules are followed to the letter every time or a compromise (e.g. time penalty) is arrived at every time. It's no good treating different runners or teams completely differently at one race to how others were treated at another race where the two situations were so similar.
I just hope it sets a precedent where everyone now knows where they stand. i.e. no dib, no finish. I think there needs to be an official FRA ruling put in place otherwise we'll get some organisers who are brave enough to follow the rules and others who turn a blind eye.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
Maybe the correct decision was taken here as the judges were high ranking officials of the FRA and not just simply the local organisers.
I agree with this totally (only cos i'm a p*****d off Mercia runner!:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent