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Because it's not you who is going to be suing the organisers in the event of your death, it's your next of kin or other dependants
Why sign it then ?
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.Quote:
Because it's not you who is going to be suing the organisers in the event of your death, it's your next of kin or other dependants
Why sign it then ?
The legalese says the organiser has a duty of care to protect the safety of the participants "so far as is reasonably practicable". Realistically, any court (British ones at any rate) would surely take into account the nature of the event and the kind of people participating. Let's not debate the millions of possible scenarios but, given the nature of fellracing - a perfectly wholesome and legal activity - a successful suit for negligence against an organiser is still not a likely outcome in my opinion.
Agreed.
I think Wheeze (who is a Doctor) has alluded somewhere to being involved after the death of the woman who died in the Welsh Relay?
I wonder if he has anything to share about any coroner's "recommendations" after this tragedy?
Its such a shame we have come to this ...the blame culture ! I love that advert on the t.v,where a woman trips over a plastic tie wrap on the floor and receives 4k in compensation !! Surely the judge should have told her "In future,watch where your going" and that should have been the end of it !! We will have guides holding peoples hand over rough terrain next.Unless you are sent over the side of cliffs the only person to blame for injury is yourself ... surely !!
I get this at work,you have to report near miss incidents... where do you draw the line? If a car drives past me and misses me by 3ft is that a near miss ? Maybe,but the fact i was on the pavement waiting to cross the road becomes relavant doesn't it !!:rolleyes:
Fell running was a way of escaping this nonsense,but it is spreading everywhere ....:eek:
Graham, I'm not putting arguments into your mouth. I'm just stating my point of view and trying to illustrate it. These forum debates are better if we resist the urge to personalise issues. Virtually all of my racing occurs on new or relatively new routes in Wales, well away from the 'cradle' of traditional fell running so my views are not formed from an idealised attachment to the old school races. That being said, I will admit I rarely compete in fields larger than 100.
Mud, I abhor the Satans spawn that is the Daily Mail....I would rather read the Sun. At least it is honestly trashy. My info re: the Holocaust comes from someone who is a senior educational manager.
End, you are right, I was very closely involved in the death of a runner. Its an episode I have detailed on the forum before (and alluded to in this thread....she would have never got into trouble if she had the ability to run on one single compass bearing as did others, myself included).
I'll forgive you for a bit then. The actual report is here, and it was (unsurprisngly) spun by the Mail etc when published.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
And I suppose everyone else wants to blather on about phones, anyway.
When I was in the cubs we had to take 2p for the phonebox, and our neckerchief to use as a slightly grubby triangular bandage. I don't recall either of them being directly useful, but the false sense of security they gave me has stayed like a comforting hug for years.
NEAR MISS - reminds me of the time I was manouvering my van around in a very tight spot. A mate who had his van door open ( and which I had been very carefull to miss by a good couple of inches ) accused me of nearly damaging his van. As I pointed out to him "If the whole purpose of the exercise was for me to drive my van into the door of your van; by now you would be jumping up and down with your arms in the air shouting, 'You've missed. You've missed by a mile'." At the end of the day a miss is a miss regardless of by how much!:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Rodders rambler
A lot of the nonsense that surrounds the whole H&S/Blame Culture/Litigation situation stems from paranoia; Statutory H&S legislation (which DOESN'T apply to our leisure activities) is actually fairly sensible (and quite woolly), and the fear of litigation in common law is often exaggerated.
People in workplaces AND in organisation of liesure or educational activities very often go completely overboard because they are scared witless by the fear of prosecution or litigation, when in actual fact they needn't be. Up to now, British courts (and the HSE) have been pretty sensible and fair-minded about who they prosecute and find negligent. It's the paranoia of the general public (and I include middle managers and some organisers) we need to beware of!
Hence this thread...
So with the blame culture comes the expected liability of organisers to reduce risk to the lowest practical level for the sport. If it was rock climbing that would not be taking away the rocks, but wearing helmets,etc.
I have never been involved in a serious car accident, so does that mean I should rise up agaist the law of wearing a seat belt?
The issue is "is a mobile phone a help to carry on races?"
Or should their be better ways of communication for marshals/more marshals?:mad: (which would defeat half the objective of runners on the fells)
Running without a phone is great when training/just out for a run/jog/walk but on a race?
I agree with GrahamB's sentiments that there are alot of new refugees from other sports (myself included) who do not have the experiance of some top/experianced fell runners and would get hoplessley lost/in trouble.
People say they should be able to read a map, and attend navigation courses, but that does not mean they can read a map in the heat of the moment (just like passing a driving test means you can drive a car)
I think there will be no definitive answer to this debate, and maybe the phone issue will be down to the individual race and only if there is available coverage.
For the last 7 or 8 years, I've made a point of going camping with my two children (leaving the wife behind ;)) in the Lakes or Snowdonia. We've hiked hills, climbed trees, canoed, cliff jumped (what would the Daily Mail say!), swam across lakes, body surfed, waded up and down rocky streams, abseiled, gone 'go ape' and generally done everything that a school field trip finds hard to do nowadays due to H & S issues. And I've loved every minute of it (not sure the kids did mind ;)).
The funniest yet starkest comment we received though as we were setting off to swim to Peel Island on Coniston from the west bank - 'you can't swim in there - you could die within 5 minutes'. It was July, the Lake was relatively warm (well compared to previous escapades anyway) so where the fcuk do these people come from and where the hell do they get their information?
Without wanting to make any personally directed comment, should people who 'would get hopelessly lost' enter a fell race? An important facet of fell running is to take personal responsibilty for yourself, not pass it off onto someone else. Note, I am not talking about the 'urban orienteering' (to quote Jonathon Gibbon) type courses where a 'crocodile' of 500 runners run a fairly short fairly low level route but the true mountainous high level, exposed and remote routes where navigational skills are a potentially lifesaving attribute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince
For new refugees there is always the grading of the race in the Fellrunning calendar which clearly state if navigational skills are required. At least then, anyone who is unsure of their ability to navigate can avoid those races where navigation may be an issue.
Have I ever got lost? Of course I have!! It just made more determined to prepare more thoroughly.
This is another example in my opinion of excessive legislation,another is wearing a helmet on a motorbike.I beleive people should put a helmet on for there own safety not because some power obsessed politician tells you too.Surely people are sensible enough to make there own mind up.The only way it becomes a problem is if your actions cause cost or harm to others.Which,returning to running,you could argue,having to rescue someone ill equiped in a race does.The only way round this would be to have personal insurance and so its up to the runners to conform with there own policy and not the organiser to insist on such measures.If you want to run against your policies rules for competition,its you that is punished not the organisers.Quote:
I have never been involved in a serious car accident, so does that mean I should rise up agaist the law of wearing a seat belt?
I'm sure this will bring up its own problems,but we have to get round this idea of the organiser being held responsible.:mad:
The reason I do not enter any of them, as I am famous for getting lost, even in my own area of the West Pennine Moors. It would take a lot of low level races to build up to them. But that is me acting responsible as a competitor, just as the seasoned runner would not race if they were injured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
With the refugees from other sports coming in, so will the impulse entering (which you hear of on here) "My first fell race and I entered X,Y, or Z" like they have for the London Marathon.
Why not pick up experience outside of racing? A one day course (probably costing less than £30) and a further 2-3 days spent out on the hill will give you the skills to navigate around most races. It doesn't mean you won't get lost, but once lost you should be able to relocate again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince
Vince, running 'low level' races will never make you a good navigator since the pace is so quick that, as Chris has said, if you stop to take your bearings, your race is over.
Iains suggestion is sound but so also is reading up on it and then going out into the hills on your own and realising just how straightforward 'simple' nav really is. Its really satisfying to be able to plot a route, dial it into the compass and then run, head down and see how accurate and easy the technique is. Gives you a lot of confidence for the day when you are high, miles from anywhere and going for it in the clag.
Fair point, perhaps I was being a little too restrained! They'll be flagging entire courses next. Lets try and stop this now before it gets out of hand!Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
I am a new refugee as it seems to be the term (although I don't like the term, refugees are always through history the oppressed minority, thats not very inclusive is it?)
People are still pussyfooting around this situation. If you cannot navigate you shouldn't enter the longer races! SIMPLE. This does not just apply to the so called "refugees" this applies to all those who have ran for years but put a map in their hands and they start chanting "Never Eat Shredded Wheat" at you.
The short up and downs are a bit easier (apparently, never done a short race) but the longer ones may not give people the opportunity to follow the person in front and hope they know where they are. This is a life threatening situation and could end up with real heartache for a lot of people.
The ability to re-locate yourself and get yourself out of trouble is essential. You want to take the wrong turn off scafell in the clag? There is some big drops there.
Nav really is an easy and enjoyable part of fell running. Just needs a bit of practice and then sorted. Christ if we cannot navigate what next? Taking mobiles on races?
With some of the comments on navigation I am really not suprised that Edale have decided a mobile would be a good thing. Are you?
"I'm lost!" isn't necessarily that helpful a message to get over the phone. For instance Maria in Coronation Street (and I just can't believe SHE didn't have a mobile on her. What would she have said to the MR?
"Oh please won't somebody help us! Oh help!"
"Now just calm down love and tell us where you are."
"The Lake District... I think. Oh help help. It's so dark and high and oh no I've fallen in a beck..."
I rest my case.
Road running lost it's appeal for me over a period of many years due to all the nonsense including (but a great deal more than) goody bags and overcomplication.
I'm not a mountain person, I'd never seen a mountain until I ran the Borrowdale race.I'm not good with heights. Nevertheless I became obsessed with fell racing as peole who know me may appreciate.
I have often wanted to comment on the myth of 'blazers' in athletics which is the disparaging term we are supposed to use for the athletics establishment. If you want to see a bit of purity in sport go to a track and field evening at Stretford in the spring and summer and don't pretend fell running has any more of it.
Personally, there's other stuff I can do than run a fell race with a phone.
Well I quite like shredded wheat but I prefer weetabix.
but I don't eat maps or Shredded Wheat, so where does that leave me ......Quote:
Originally Posted by AJF
Perhaps we ought to have No Women Shall Enter;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AJF
On the long races you shouldn't be there if you don't know how to map read. The Skyline race is easier than most as it is a loop , Keep the Valley on your right and you can't go to far wrong.
well it didn't stop me getting lost 3 years ago. At least I took a dozen the wrong way with me. Incidentally, Ian, Richard is ordering a set of Dark Peak vests printed with your mobile number on them. Do you want one?Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
The irony of all this is that I've never come close to getting lost in a race whereas I regularly have 'where the hell am I going' moments running solo :rolleyes: .Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Lets face it getting lost is seriously difficult amid a bunch of anything between 100 and 600 runners, with marshalls and spectators dotted about, armed with a whistle, a compass and a map and a fairly good idea of the ground you've covered, if not the ground ahead, added to the fact that the race might well be a horseshoe or a loop that might well include some low(er) ground as well as high ground and, if not on paths or trods, will be in places where paths can be found or expected. Its only when you get a blizzard (especially) or severe clag that things could be more difficult but just staying with the other runners (behind if those in front can't be reached) or asking for help are still far from actions of last resort.
But I thought that was a tactical manoever:DQuote:
Originally Posted by skyline
Are you back from your travels yet?
You might live to regret that statement :rolleyes:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Yeah, right, obviously the voice of years of experience...:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I've actually got years of experience...... of getting lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by No map, no compass
But have presumably been very lucky in races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I can assure you that it is very easy to get lost in a race in thick clag, probably much easier than when out on your own, as you tend to have your head down and are following whoever is in front, until they disappear along with the trod:eek:
This can happen even when you have done the race several times before, reccied it the week before and are a competent navigator.
Fair comment. I guess I've only run a dozen or so actual fell races over say 9 or 10 different fell race routes so what do I know. That said I've run a gazzilion miles solo in all sorts - I find due to the nature of fell running that you're always running looking at the ground 8 feet in front of you and its extremely easy to miss paths and trods, treblely so in clag and awful weather; like I said, I've had a fair few navigational holes to dig myself out of running solo thats for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by No map, no compass
Getting slightly back to the point I guess I was trying to make (in a crap way as usual :rolleyes: ) running solo, on the whole, has more risks than running in a race.
Wouldn't disagree with that.
As someone who has run lots of solo miles you should be better at finding your way round a race than many.
The difference is that when out on ones own you know that you are entirely responsible for getting round so are paying attention to where you are, but in a race it is all to easy to follow and only half pay attention, leaving you in the shit when whoever you are following disappears over the crest of the hill or into the mist.
I know someone who ended up in the wrong valley on Blisco Dash in brilliant sunshine, then again they do run for Helm Hill ;)
Maybe in future race organisers will operate a call centre for lost runners to phone for directions.
Would agree with that. Always easy to get lost in a race simply because you dont always focus on the nav and simply follow the person in front. It takes a lot of confidence to break off and follow your own route. This also gets harder as you get more tired. When youre on your own you have no choice but to navigate for yourself.Quote:
The difference is that when out on ones own you know that you are entirely responsible for getting round so are paying attention to where you are, but in a race it is all to easy to follow and only half pay attention, leaving you in the shit when whoever you are following disappears over the crest of the hill or into the mist.
As for mobile phones being compulsory:-
Sad really, another small gain for those who want to make things safer. Being on your own on a long race in the mountains is part of the adventure. A phone just reduces the isolation (even if only in your mind) and detracts from the experience. I get the same feeling from following the slab paths instead of hacking across the moor.
Reminds me of Don Whillans quote on climbing walls:- "Climbing walls! Climbing walls! Where's the bloody adventure in climbing walls?"
I followed him!Quote:
Originally Posted by No map, no compass
If they want me to carry a phone I would, they're going to the trouble of organising the race, I'll grumble though, but I enjoy a grumble.
I'd be more impressed if they stepped up the kit requirements as well/instead, several races insist on waterproof full body cover with a hood, the 3 peaks cyclo-X specs an orange bivi bag. Mickey Mouse superlight windproofs should be kept for pleasant summer races.
Only goes to show that you should never follow anyone!
Mobile phones - stupid idea if you ask me.
No map, no compass, no whistle, what the hells going on here??
In the races I've been in I only "follow" people who are going the right way and when I think they are not on the best line I go my own way :pQuote:
Originally Posted by No map, no compass
I think its sad that race organisers have kit requirments at all, in an ideal world people would take responsibility for their own safety :(
Bill
It's a kit check!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Grouse
Last years Edale kit requirement was full waterproof (With hood) body cover. A number of runners tried to pass off pertex as Waterproof but we sent them back to their car to put a better top in. We also told a number of runners that we advise them to carry more food, which they did and were thankful later.Quote:
Originally Posted by No Whistle
At last years Tankies a large number of runners went the wrong way following a quicker runner. I was one of these:o Not this year though