That's it hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Attachment 8578
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That's it hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Attachment 8578
Is that at toothbrush moustache your dogs got?
Honest and flawed personal perspective inbound.
I think either vote would have resulted in a spike in visible racism, how much who knows. But either case would have prompted the knuckle draggers into action. Either through misguided moral licensing/frustration/taking the opportunity or whatever. What I don't believe has happened is people suddenly became more racist overnight, there's just been a window of opportunity where someone took the chance to leave labels saying "go home polish vermin".
Is one camp more racist than the other, nobody really knows because overwhelmingly people acknowledge it's immoral and would never publicly admit such a thing even if it was their position. And anybody claiming absolutely that one is more racist than the other is simply displaying prejudice at best. You'll never get an accurate poll with the question "So, are you a racist?" Even if it's dressed up into a more acceptable question.
Both sides are guilty of snide insults, and those insults continue to fly from both sides. Sometimes subtle, sometimes blatant. Sometimes using vile insults, sometimes less offensive derogatory language.
It's going to be a long time before both camps come back together on this subject, and at the minute (living in a highly pro EU community) it's hard to see the remain camp coming round to the idea that xenophobia wasn't a major driver in this. As is usual these days they've effectively closed themselves off into their social echo chambers and are only hearing the voices that confirms their beliefs. Part of the reason I'm here tbh, I don't agree with many on this thread, but if I don't listen I'll lose understanding of your viewpoint.
Nice quote at the end Sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Good honest piece by wheeze too in regards to the silent majority.
maybe I read this wrong but I don't think so. As you wrote - insults can be subtle or blatant. Yours falls into both camps. Not acceptable at all. Not at anytime have I insulted anyone, either blatant or subtle or by being sly. This is the reason most people do not stand up to be heard as there is always someone to try and put them in a box and be a bully. Don't worry though. I wont give my opinion on this thread again.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
If anything better demonstrates just how ridiculous some 'democratic' results can be, you only have to look at Donald Trump becoming president in the US. A huge part of the post brexit fallout has been the brexiteers banging on about 'democracy has spoken'. The trouble is it is democracy led by a big chunk of people ignorant of the facts but certain in their views - I'm not saying ignorant in that they didn't understand the facts but ignorant that they didn't even want to know them. Yes I know the other brexit arguments on the economy (largely shot full of holes now though), parliamentary control and sovereignty and I agree those arguments were sensible and valid points of view. Not enough on their own to get brexit over the line though without the clincher which was racism and ignorance. Racism was the element that won the day for brexit in the same way that racism and sexism has won the day for Donald.
Everyone is getting too fixated on the individuals in the USA but that allows a classic sleight of hand.
Consider:
1. The Republicans were desperate to get back into power.
2. They were up against the PR dream of the First Female President.
3. To spike her guns they had to put up a cartoon chimpanzee who would be guaranteed to draw all the media attention by saying crazy things.
Consider: Game in play. They (the rank and file Republicans) distance themselves from the Chimp to avoid getting spattered with mud from the pig-wrestling contest thats going down.
Consider: End game. Chimp wins. Republicans now have regained power. Chimp down-tunes claims (although not completely yet).
The Mexico wall is as likely as Obamas promise that Guantanemo Bay would be closed within a year of him taking power. These are just puff-ball claims to win votes.
A- it was actually a compliment, however if the chasm between us is that great I shall save such compliments for Bawbag Noel and SBRT and his evil dog. Occasionally Harry and Teasel.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTheSweeper
B- I never suggested you did anything of the sort which is why I stuck to "camps" neither of which are homogeneous blocks.
Just to be absolutely clear Sweeper, I like and appreciate your posts, please continue.
I've absolutely no idea what you're on about Wheeze. Rather than using Trump as a way back to power the Republicans right up to the vote were absolutely petrified that Trump would bomb and take them with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
That though is nothing to do with brexit other than both us and the US have been screwed over by those with extreme right wing views holding the crucial deciding votes
If they have been I must have missed them. According to the Treasury just before the referendum, we would already be going into recession in the quarter to September. Instead growth was 0.5%. In fact the only prediction I can think of so far from Project Fear that has come true is the weakening of the pound. And given our very large current account deficit that's largely a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
To have concerns about the scale of immigration is not racism. Of course in the case of a minority of people this will be a factor. But mass immigration does put pressure on infrastructure and when much of it is unskilled on the pay rates of some people. Even Lord Rose, the head of the Remain Campaign admitted that.Quote:
Racism was the element that won the day for brexit
Near where I live to the east of Leeds, the council has proposed a 5,000 home development. This is on the historic Parlington estate, which is a nice area of fields and woodland. Many people in my club are up in arms as we regularly run on the trails there and this will all be destroyed. I fully share their concerns but of course people have to live somewhere and there are only so many brownfield sites. When you have immigration on the scale that this country has experienced then destruction of the countryside is inevitable.
A week pound improves exports but makes imports more expensive. Amongst other things, imports such as oil. Ignoring tariffs (which may come later) price increases directly cause inflation. Toblerone have already taken drastic action :), VW have announced price increases, and Unilever are strongly hinting at them so this isn't something that might happen, its already happening. Inflation, unless earnings rise hand in hand with it, decreases demand for goods. Inflation also usually leads to interest rate rises and, at present, aren't we at largest ever personal borrowing levels at £1.5 trillion? The IFS have predicted a £25 billion additional borrowing requirement for the government in this parliament directly down to Brexit - that's £25 billion taking into account EU contribution savings! If that proves to be the case how is Brexit economically a good thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
I'm not talking about concerns over immigration. Lots of people, brexiters and remainers, Germans, French, Dutch et al have concerns over that. I'm talking about out and out racism.Quote:
To have concerns about the scale of immigration is not racism. Of course in the case of a minority of people this will be a factor. But mass immigration does put pressure on infrastructure and when much of it is unskilled on the pay rates of some people. Even Lord Rose, the head of the Remain Campaign admitted that.
This Guardian article from a couple of years ago provides some useful stats on racial prejudice. Its uncanny how that survey's findings mirror brexit voter profiles
There is concern and then there are the Daily(hate) mail readers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
The Bank of England has a target inflation rate of 2% and it has been below target since 2013. In fact it is so far below target that for the second time the Governor will have to write to the Chancellor to explain why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
A moderate rate of inflation is an indicator of a healthy economy and hence the target rate so the economy can manage some inflationary pressure.
Until the BoE announced the rate cut in August, QE and other measures, the £ was above $1.30 which was in reality only a drop of around 7% from the pre-referendum trend rate in the 1.40s.
Those measures by the BoE were in view of 0.1% growth in 3rd quarter and similar in the 4th quarter and less than 1% on 2017.
These BoE measures hit savers, hit the £ and were based on forecasts that were way below the reality. They have probably doubled the drop in the £ since the referendum.
The fact that VW are putting up there prices is exactly what I have forecast if you have read my pre-brexit report that I posted on #259.
It won't just be VW it will be others.
But Nissan, Toyota, Honda....will not have to do so the % of UK made cars sold in the UK market should increase.
So modest inflation, increased exports due to lower £ puts more money in people's pockets, increased business in UK market due to less competition from overseas.
The extra borrowing requirement is because the Chancellor has decided to relax the deficit targets that Osborne set. Blame Brexit perhaps, but Osborne's figures were largely political anyway targeted at hitting some headlines just before the 2020 election they had planned.
At least that is what Osborne's critics were saying when he set those targets.
How is Brexit a good thing? Well personally life isn't all about GDP / Growth and money. Whilst I enjoy a debate, I actually think we could see a drop in GDP and see our quality of life improve in the UK. We will only be able to make a judgement in 10 - 20 years time.
It will be a judgement as we will never know for sure. But we can probably get a gauge from the relative economic measures for similar economies like Germany and France.
I hope you carry on contributing. I largely share your opinions and I also think you just misread Shaunaneto.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTheSweeper
Same here.
People keep going on how democracy has won and therefore Brexit has to happen. Democracy also means people can protest and object and do what ever is in the power to change things. It is no less democratic
The Poll Tax is a good example of democracy taking is course.
Personally I think there should be another referendum
[QUOTE=luxinterior;628489
Personally I think there should be another referendum[/QUOTE]
Me too. It could become an annual event. In out, in out, ya shake it all about.
Nissan and Toyota export most of the cars they make. I am not sure what currency they trade in, but most international businesses, trade in $ not £. A weak pound costs them money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
At the moment, we import more than we export. which will also cost us. At least for the short term. Who knows about the future?
Well it could be that Witton is correct and that this forecast deterioration in the public finances is down to Phillip Hammond abandoning George Osborne's spending plans. But in any case I am extremely sceptical of economic forecasts and it always amuses me when people try to present them as facts that will definitly happen. As I mentioned in my last post, growth in the last quarter came to 0.5%. Just before the referendum the Treasury forecast that the impact of voting to leave would cause growth to shrink to -0.1%. So they got it spectacularly wrong in just one quarter!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
With regard to inflation, as Witton pointed out the fall in the pound has been exacerbated by the Bank of England lowering interest rates and announcing more QE - A move that was completely unnecessary. But in any case even the Bank of England only expects inflation to be 2.7% by the end of 2017. Its target is 2% so that would hardly be a crisis.
Something most of the economic forecasters never take into account is the potential for the UK to sign its own trade deals. They assume it just won't happen. But the reality is that countries around the world appear to be falling over backwards to do a trade deal with the UK. Not only would this boost exports, it would also make imports cheaper particularly in food and beverages. At the moment, being in the EU means we have to impose a tariff of 20%.
Made this forum more excitingQuote:
Originally Posted by sbrt
All we need is Jeremy Corbyn as PM and it will be a full house of craziness
But who's prediction of the economy is likely to be more accurate? The IFS's or Muddy Retriever's? Or WittonPark's? Perhaps you guys have your own economic modelling tools but, I'm not sure reading and believing the Daily Mail is going to 100% work out ;)
By this indicator racial prejudice is at at about 30%. So if this is indeed true and people put this into practice when voting in the referendum you would also expect them to do the same in general elections wouldn't you. Why not vote for an openly racist party like the BNP? Problem with that theory is that the vote the BNP gets in general elections is tiny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I expect some people are prejudiced but don't actually think so. I'm thinking of the problem of antisemitism on the left. I imagine most of them voted to Remain.
Accurate forecasting is extremely difficult, there are so many unknowns. What we can do is compare the forecasts to what happened in reality. None of these expert bodies predicted the euro crisis or the financial crash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Had to chuckle when you threw in the old Daily Mail chestnut. On this forum it normally means that the person using it has run out of arguments.
Well we didn't have a referendum about the poll tax just a minority of people rioting because they didn't like it. Is that democracy?Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
Stolly, as much as I like you, there is a type of bigotry in your posts. The Daily Mail comment in this one that's totally unnecessary in making your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I don't read it and have occasionally seen a copy when flying on BA.
All I'd say so far is that my predictions post Brexit are closer to the mark that the IFS ;)
I'd also add to that that yes we have a democracy. So when a decision is taken at the ballot box, get on with it and then assess it. Only then can it be judged.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfella
In essence that is what happened with poll tax, which incidentally left me and my wife worse off, but our neighbours who were both elderly widows better off, and I thought it was fair.
I went from £170 rates to £380 poll tax. I've moved since but the Council Tax is around £1200 now.
Do people who read the Mail not consider it an insult? Similarly, when people are called liberal Guardian readers, do they proudly say "yes, that's me"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I'd say you were more of a Telegraph reader WP. And that wasn't intended as an insult, so apologies if you think it is.
Cards on the table: I read the Times, as it's free at work. But if I had to buy a paper, I'd probably buy the Times.
Haha the Daily Mail jibe was a cheap shot but it was funny, even funnier that it touched a nerve and you reacted so badly to it :). We'll just leave it that you (MR and WP) and the Daily Mail co-incidentally are as one on all this then.
The point about the IFS, and the Bank of England come to that, is that they have a huge amount of resources, knowledge, systems, computations and sophisticated modelling tools. And they are independent. Yep I agree they can get predictions wrong but, in the scheme of things, they're more likely to be right than two fell runners on a fell running forum ;)
What predictions have they got right then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I read the Daily Mail AND The Guardian. I'm so confused :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
But then I also read The Times, The Independent, The Financial Times and Ring magazine. It's not healthy to get all your information from one source.
Mind...Quote:
I read the Daily Mail AND The Guardian.
Blown...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CS7j5I6aOc
Punch drunk, right wing, socialist, Murdockist, capitalist, fence sitter :pQuote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
I apologise if I jumped to the wrong conclusion on this. So many (obviously me included) have to listen to the political vitriol spurted constantly by those that feel they know what is best that even innocent remarks are taken wrongly.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
I feel frightened by the power that the EU has become. Too many individuals are just a number. Our country fought to keep our freedoms but it seems as if that is no longer relevant. My grandfather fought in the war and lost his brother and many many many friends. Each village and town knew the names of those boys and still remember them now. In many towns, villages, even small hamlets we do not even know the names of our neighbours. When we moved into our home in March this year two of the farmers popped their heads over our garden wall and welcomed us to the village. We actively went out and got to know the people and say hello. That is so unusual today but why? When did we stop helping our fellow human beings when did we start to just want to help ourselves? My hubby and I are not at all materialistic, as long as we owe no one money we are happy. We both have good jobs but not jobs that take over our lives. We work to live not live to work. We don't have black, white, polish, Asian, disabled, gay, rich, poor friends .... we have friends, we do not feel the need to label them by race, creed, religion, sexual preference or effluence.
My husbands mother came over to England as a 5 year old child accompanied by her mother. They are from Poland. Her journey here was fraught with danger and the death of her aunt and many others. It was 2 years after the war had ended that her father joined them. He was one of the Polish Freedom Fighters that helped to shape the war. I do believe, maybe naively, that everyone I know would help a fellow human being in need whatever their race. Even my amazing wonderful mother-in-law is fearful of the power of the EU. The ordinary citizen of all EU countries seems to be consigned to a number. People no longer matter. Humanity no longer matters.
When we were given the referendum the EU never approached us, the UK people and said "ok, we know you are not happy. What can we do?" There was nothing! Total disregard & disrespect. How on earth is mutual respect supposed to build on that? How was the referendum supposed to go any other way than the way it went? Those disillusioned with the EU were given only two choices "Leave" or "put up and shut up". The EU being so sure of their power thought .. Britain would tow the line and STFU! They got a shock as the silent majority for once were allowed a voice and by god did they use it. Instead of trying to work with us and save the situation the EU powers that be decided "we will punish you". Dictatorship ... there we have it.
I am the last person to be sanding up and shouting "burn your bra" but you can believe I will stand up for every hard working person in this country no matter their race, country of origin, colour, religion, sexual orientation and every other nomination you are able to come up with. I will also fight against injustice, spite, bullying, and anyone who breaks our laws. Peace and Tolerance for all x
Hey up Race the Sweeper!
My dad was a refugee/ evacuee during WW2. Kind Canadians, took him, his two sisters, brother and thousands of other children into their care. When I see Farage and the Hate Mail, vilifying refugees to promote Brexit, I find it deeply offensive.
The saddest effect of Brexit, is that it has bolstered the far/alt right.
Peace and unity
As with all political & personal views it can only be bolstered if allowed. As long as those opposed to leaving the EU keep shouting that all voting to leave are "insert your insult here" it will distract from the real work and the majority of really good people. There are some that really want leaving the EU to fail even it it means compete collapse of the Country. To some it's not about working together for a brighter future it's about being proved right and the usual silent minority being proved wrong. I don't give facts, figures, snippets from social medial, bias media reports as I think most have that covered. I watch, I research and I speak from the heart. Our country means so much to me and I don't want us to be vanished into meaningless numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrt
peace and tolerance and yes ... definitely unity to all!
But having said that, there were a small number of financial experts who did predict the euro crisis. This was Nigel Lawson in 1998. I think I've posted it on the forum before but worth doing so again because it is so eerily accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2011/04...n-on-the-euro/
Sensible chap, who of course backed the Leave Campaign ;)
Stolly, I don't know if you thought that your comment on the Daily Mail touched a nerve with me or Witton (or both) but it didn't for me. As I said, I thought it was amusing and telling. I mainly read online the Telegraph, Spectator and BBC. At the weekend I buy the Sunday Times. I also read the Guardian online for the same reason that shaunaneto said yesterday that he comes on here. I rarely agree with it's opinions but it is worth reading a different viewpoint.
You do realise that a primary founding aim of the EU is to ensure further European wars don't happen don't you? And while all 27/28 countries are in it, the potential for another war are massively reduced. Consider though if each individual country leaves the EU like the UK wants to? With 28 free, non-aligned, separate countries all open to other external influences, don't you think the potential for conflict will rise somewhat?Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTheSweeper
Also France lost in excess of 1.1 million soldiers in WW1, 30% more than the UK. In WW2 France, in being liberated, suffered c 70,000 civilian deaths directly caused by the allies (not the Germans), 40,000 of those in the months leading up to D-Day. All European countries suffered massively in the last two World Wars, wars that Great Britain didn't win on their own by a long shout.
I'm just fed up of having Daily Mail reader, racist and bigot thrown at me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
I do read the Telegraph as I've said before, along with the Guardian and Independent.