Makes you proud to be British

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I don't actually think it is a race issue - and never was - it's more of a class issue.

Take the Indian sub-continent. Amongst the lowest achievers are the Pakistani and Bangladeshi youth. But the Indian are amongst the highest achievers.
They are the same race.
The Indians are differing religions - so it's not linked to religion.

But the Indians are generally middle class business people. The Pakistani / Bangladeshi are working class. They came to work in the factories and those jobs are no longer there.

That's the same issue for the white working class.

The middle class in this country (generally) have a built in level of aspiration that is driven by parents, grandparents and taken up by the kids.

The working class - well there isn't really one anymore. It's really a benefits / low income / tax credits class.
What have they to aim for?

If they work and they try to earn more, they lose tax credits.

If they don't work, and take a job, they often lose out financially.

If they try hard to achieve at school, they often have no option other than a failing school.

The online LET article doesn't have the Stats. They show that in 2009 Burnley and Padiham's best School achieved only 43% 5 A-C at GCSE with an average of 35%.
Blackburn had one school at 11% - that school doesn't even turn up for the Town Athletics or XC Champs - so not only are they failing at Academic subjects, they are failing in all areas.

If you end up at that 11% school, what are your chances?

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Im working class as are a lot of us and we wouldnt see ourselves as leaning on a metaphorical crutch of benefits or whatever. I dont think it is a class issue either unless of course it is concerning the gulf between Private and normal education (yet private schools have come out low due to discrepancies with the IGcse)
Obviously the school with the 11% is a c ulmination probably of a poor area, with poor resourceas and ultimately a poor reputation which means it wont attract the top young academic people...so is it a failing of the class system or a failing of schools and a victory for elitism.

I know what they have to aim for a better life....its obvious. All these schemes by the government to try and get working class kids as doctors, vets etc...im quite envious because im just not clever enough but hey ho shit happens. However there are those who are content with simple lives relying on benefits and unfortuantely they all go to certain schools and bring their standards and thos of other students down

It's a really tough experience growing up in a sink estate which is isolated socially and physically (in my case, but a stinking great dual carriageway) from the rest of the town, city and indeed country. You almost feel like you're not expected to achieve, like trying at school is some kind of statement that you're better than the rest of your mates. My school year yielded just 2 people with 5 good GCSEs or more (this was 1989) and 3 professional footballers. I've grown quite fond of that statistic in an odd way. The school has been knocked down now, thankfully.

I remember saying that I wanted to be a teacher, and therefore do A levels. My friends' parents, not just my classmates, would take the pi55. As though i was deluded. Our school didn;t offer a 6th form and further education seemed a world away. When you're young, these things matter and there's hardly anyone to tell you that what you're experiencing is not what you'll get everywhere else - teenagers will vwey readily think the world is against them when it isn't. I remember one of my teachers telling me to stay realistic and not get my hopes up. Can you beleive that!?! It's very hard for kids in that situation - and it breaks more that it makes.

My mum, and also the people I met through Scouting were the only factors that provided any kind of inspiration and evidence that it was ok to think differently. Mum provided the ideas and the will, but Scouting (which led to getting on the hills :) ) provided the evidence.

Schools can only do so much, but non school peer groups such as Scouting, sport etc, even origami if it works are a vital ingredient to help kids step out of the all too frequent pattern of lack of encouragement, delinquency and then onto far worse in some cases

Reading those articles make my heart sink. Kids , esp those in the toughest areas or family circumstances, need to achieve from as early as possible, not just at school or at football. FInd that achivement outlet and you've got a chance. The government have put most of their eggs in teh '5 GCSEs' basket and then aimed low. It's horrible.

I agree with all you've put there ST.

Life is like a game of Snakes and Ladders.

About 40 years ago there were more ladders and less snakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0DUsGSMwZY

Have a look at this Tom. It's comedy, but in many respects that how it was. Three clearly defined classes.

These are now blurred. The Upper / Middle Class have become blurred in to one.
The working class are taking hols to Florida. But there's a new class below working class where the problems need resolving.

I'm a teacher, so I'm biased, please don't shoot the messenger, these are my opinions.
1) TT, like what you say, (wont quote etc) very well argued points, some of your education is obviously working as your points are argued eloquently. If that was general studies I'd mark it high. :D
2) Low achieving schools still produce high class people, my head of year 11 went to a school in Bradford that had VERY low results (single figures), if you have aspirations you can do it. Another friend is probably one of the best teachers I have seen, his school had 5% 5A-C but he did well.
3) 30% is rubbish and only arbitary. My school achieved its highest ever results this year 27%, are we rubbish? No, our pupils should have achieved 23%, in Calderdale we added more value than the grammar schools! We were criticized in the local paper and stated we were in danger of being shut down, great for undermining pupils confidence. The fact is many of our pupils have horrific home lives and school is low on their agenda, getting 5 passes is an achievement. Our school is getting there and I'm proud of my classes but I know that a class of grade Cs is a world away. They are top pupils and deserve help not the media slating them.
4) IN recent snow, certain roads were clear, Siddal / exley wasn't, thats' where our school is, does it give them confidence that people care?
5) Not all pupils can achieve in these subjects, vocational subjects need to be brought back so that some can aspire to those. A goos school supplies the right courses for the right pupils, that is restricted to some extent.
6) I agree that there is a cultural difference to work from different pupils, but alot goes down to upbringing and what parents expect. I have pupils from the roughest estate who are on line for BB at GCSE science, but some of the better off pupils heading for DD!!
Sorry this post is long but I'll argue on behalf of children at school..

Biara - Sounds like you would approve of a return to the Grammar School / Secondary Modern system of the 60s that worked so well.
It allowed social mobility - kids from poorer backgrounds could get a top class academic education.
Kids who went to the secondary modern were allowed to develop academically or vocationally dependant upon their ability and desire.

But I bet I've read you wrong ;)

Don't want grammar schools / secondary modern (albeit daughter in private school!!) but want all pupils to be able to achieve to the best of their abilities. The best achieving school I ever worked at had pupils going on to be vets (ie 3As at A-level) but also pupils studying for apprenticeships in building at local college, it used to be possible and done.

There is no reason why all pupils shouldn't be treated equally. I didn't even take 11+ as didn't want to go to local grammar school. I don't believe in grammar schools, don't like private but think all should be able to do the best they can. Local secondary is poor, so sent daughter private. Yes, I know I'm lining myself up to be accused of hypocrisy but it's my daughter!!!

The point is, it used to work. Many didn't like it as it was seen as an inequality, as a two-tier system.

The Utopian idea that all could be taught under one roof, under the same framework, with the same facilities is not feasible and has been shown as such.

Why did the old system of Academic Unis and Vocational Polys work? Because they could focus on what they were good at.

It was the same with the secondary schools.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

The point is, it used to work. Many didn't like it as it was seen as an inequality, as a two-tier system.

The Utopian idea that all could be taught under one roof, under the same framework, with the same facilities is not feasible and has been shown as such.

Why did the old system of Academic Unis and Vocational Polys work? Because they could focus on what they were good at.

It was the same with the secondary schools.

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Don't agree totally but I accept your argument and understand where you are coming from. I remember a previous post re. schools in your area. (a while back!!).

I believe that good well organised schools can do it all under 1 roof. I went to a local comp on the council estate in Kent, I lived about a mile away, not on the estate. That school produced excellent results from CSEs to A-levels, pupils achieved. Some went to uni, others to apprenticeships, the teachers cared, took us away regularly and were happy to do so. Check out the Priory School, Orpington, it still has Ramfield, the outdoor pursuits centre the school bought in South Wales, good schools can do it all. I accept that I was lucky with my schooling!! I also accept that I'm an idealist when it comes to education, maybe not a realist but I do my best....;)

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Im working class as are a lot of us and we wouldnt see ourselves as leaning on a metaphorical crutch of benefits or whatever. I dont think it is a class issue either unless of course it is concerning the gulf between Private and normal education (yet private schools have come out low due to discrepancies with the IGcse)
Obviously the school with the 11% is a c ulmination probably of a poor area, with poor resourceas and ultimately a poor reputation which means it wont attract the top young academic people...so is it a failing of the class system or a failing of schools and a victory for elitism.

I know what they have to aim for a better life....its obvious. All these schemes by the government to try and get working class kids as doctors, vets etc...im quite envious because im just not clever enough but hey ho shit happens. However there are those who are content with simple lives relying on benefits and unfortuantely they all go to certain schools and bring their standards and thos of other students down

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Tom, dont put yourself down mate. Judging from your posts and your blogs etc, you have shown some excellent reasoning and thought processes. You certainly are an independent thinker which is a great attribute.

These skills will get you far; never let a teacher or anyone else for that matter convince your not good enough for your chosen career path.

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

I know what they have to aim for a better life....its obvious. All these schemes by the government to try and get working class kids as doctors, vets etc...im quite envious because im just not clever enough but hey ho shit happens. However there are those who are content with simple lives relying on benefits and unfortuantely they all go to certain schools and bring their standards and thos of other students down

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Tom, I have a lot of friends who are doctors (and married to one!). If that's what you aspire to be then go for it! Most of the doctors I know aren't overly intelligent; they're clever but not excessively so. What they all have however is drive and commitment - that's the important thing.

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Originally Posted by biara

Don't want grammar schools / secondary modern (albeit daughter in private school!!) but want all pupils to be able to achieve to the best of their abilities. The best achieving school I ever worked at had pupils going on to be vets (ie 3As at A-level) but also pupils studying for apprenticeships in building at local college, it used to be possible and done.

There is no reason why all pupils shouldn't be treated equally. I didn't even take 11+ as didn't want to go to local grammar school. I don't believe in grammar schools, don't like private but think all should be able to do the best they can. Local secondary is poor, so sent daughter private. Yes, I know I'm lining myself up to be accused of hypocrisy but it's my daughter!!!

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I find posts like the above very disturbing. It's akin to the animal 'commodity argument' used by Longdogs on another thread. What bothers me is the blatant hypocrisy paraded as moral virtue, by people not lacking in intellect. Perhaps this is the result of modern education. A kind of 'have your cake and eat it' mentality.

One thing is certain, it is the dominant trait amongst Brits.

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Originally Posted by biara

Don't want grammar schools / secondary modern (albeit daughter in private school!!) but want all pupils to be able to achieve to the best of their abilities. The best achieving school I ever worked at had pupils going on to be vets (ie 3As at A-level) but also pupils studying for apprenticeships in building at local college, it used to be possible and done.

There is no reason why all pupils shouldn't be treated equally. I didn't even take 11+ as didn't want to go to local grammar school. I don't believe in grammar schools, don't like private but think all should be able to do the best they can. Local secondary is poor, so sent daughter private. Yes, I know I'm lining myself up to be accused of hypocrisy but it's my daughter!!!

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

I find posts like the above very disturbing. It's akin to the animal 'commodity' argument' used by Longdogs on another thread. What bothers me is the blatant hypocrisy paraded as moral virtue, by people not lacking in intellect. Perhaps this is the result of modern education. A kind of 'have your cake and eat it' mentality.

One thing is certain, it is the dominant trait amongst Brits.

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Are you saying that Biara shouldn't send his daughter to a private school because he's against them?

If that's what you're saying, I agree it is a level of hypocrisy, since Biara is now part of the problem (sorry Biara). However, I think it's what most people would do if the local comprehensive school were no good. Your duty to give your kids the best chance in life is more important than your ideas about what should happen in an ideal world.

I agree that correctly prioritising and not hindering someone's chances in society is a result of education - long may it last.

Ah Biara is a bloke....thats where ive been mistaken all along

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Ah Biara is a bloke....thats where ive been mistaken all along

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Mixing up men and women:eek:
Good job you don't drink Tom;)

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Originally Posted by merrylegs

Mixing up men and women:eek:
Good job you don't drink Tom;)

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dunno why but now i know who he is for deffo.....dunno biara sounds womanly

PLEASE dont take offence you know what im like

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

dunno why but now i know who he is for deffo.....dunno biara sounds womanly

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Biara is the name of the school I used to teach at in Eritrea. The word actually means river in the Tigrinyan language. :o

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Originally Posted by biara

Biara is the name of the school I used to teach at in Eritrea. The word actually means river in the Tigrinyan language. :o

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Wow Eritrea...thats in Western Africa isnt it or am i completely wrong and it is in Asia?

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

PLEASE dont take offence you know what im like

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Aye, i know what your like, a good lad;)
That many idiots around these days, makes me proud to call a young un like you a mate:cool:

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Originally Posted by merrylegs

Aye, i know what your like, a good lad;)
That many idiots around these days, makes me proud to call a young un like you a mate:cool:

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Cheers.....leg 4 mezza

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Wow Eritrea...thats in Western Africa isnt it or am i completely wrong and it is in Asia?

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Go east from Senegal, the westernmost country in mainland Africa, Tom and you will eventually hit Eritrea in East Africa - used to be part of Ethiopia - http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/africa_map.htm

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Originally Posted by Multiterrainer

Go east from Senegal, the westernmost country in mainland Africa, Tom and you will eventually hit Eritrea in East Africa - used to be part of Ethiopia - http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/africa_map.htm

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Sorry i meant the side that has Madagascar near it just got my east and west mixed up

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Sorry i meant the side that has Madagascar near it just got my east and west mixed up

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I believe you;)

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

I find posts like the above very disturbing. It's akin to the animal 'commodity' argument' used by Longdogs on another thread. What bothers me is the blatant hypocrisy paraded as moral virtue, by people not lacking in intellect. Perhaps this is the result of modern education. A kind of 'have your cake and eat it' mentality.

One thing is certain, it is the dominant trait amongst Brits.

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Do you have childeren Chris? I don't and wouldn't feel in a position to comment on biara's position unless I did

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Originally Posted by Multiterrainer

I believe you;)

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Its near the thingymagigy thing...the valley

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Its near the thingymagigy thing...the valley

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Rift:)

Good blog by the way - shame you couldn't catch my mate Graham today - blame it on the stile fall.

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Sorry i meant the side that has Madagascar near it just got my east and west mixed up

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Its near the thingymagigy thing...the valley

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Proud to be British, we'll never leave.....................cos we can't find our way off this Island:eek::D

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Originally Posted by Multiterrainer

Rift:)

Good blog by the way - shame you couldn't catch my mate Graham today - blame it on the stile fall.

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Nah ive never been within 5 minutes of him before evn over 3 miles and i could only get within 2 of Bill over 3 so to be within that distance over 6 was mint

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Originally Posted by Roy Scott

Tom, dont put yourself down mate. Judging from your posts and your blogs etc, you have shown some excellent reasoning and thought processes. You certainly are an independent thinker which is a great attribute.

These skills will get you far; never let a teacher or anyone else for that matter convince your not good enough for your chosen career path.

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Nah i wanna be a primary school teacher anyway....wanted to do it for years. Still wish i had a shit load of A*s tho

It's the best of jobs and the worst of jobs.

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Originally Posted by biara

Don't want grammar schools / secondary modern (albeit daughter in private school!!) ... Local secondary is poor, so sent daughter private. Yes, I know I'm lining myself up to be accused of hypocrisy but it's my daughter!!!

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When I read that I thought WTF? but then you justified it, I think that's fair enough. Ideally I want any kids I have educated state school, mixed sex, but if that's not suitable then I'll look at other options.

I'd certainly not let my political/social views give any kids I have a disadvantage from the off.

The fact is at the state school level there is a MASSIVE variation in quality, from the few schools I've been at/known about/worked at.

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Wow Eritrea...thats in Western Africa isnt it or am i completely wrong and it is in Asia?

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As another forumite posted it's above Ethiopia and borders Djibouti and Sudan. It's classified as the horn of Africa and is a beautiful place. You stated thre rift valley and that runs through Kenya, ethiopia and into Eritrea. There is quite strong evidence (but don't tell Nick Griffin;)) that humans evolved in this region from fossils, check out Australopethicus afarensis (or 'Lucy').

The country now has a few 'issues' and is ranked similar to North Korea with regards to human rights. I lived there 95-98, having extended my contract once. When I left the country had gone to war with Ethiopia and tensions are still high. Where I worked has been flattened and most of my town (Barentu) was flattened as well.

Sorry if that sounded preachy, but those 3 years were some of the best of my life and on my bucket list is going back there hopefully with my children so they can see how gorgeous the place was.

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Originally Posted by noel

Are you saying that Biara shouldn't send his daughter to a private school because he's against them?

If that's what you're saying, I agree it is a level of hypocrisy, since Biara is now part of the problem (sorry Biara). However, I think it's what most people would do if the local comprehensive school were no good. Your duty to give your kids the best chance in life is more important than your ideas about what should happen in an ideal world.

I agree that correctly prioritising and not hindering someone's chances in society is a result of education - long may it last.

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Yes that's what I'm saying Noel. He should act on his conviction, or change his conviction to support private schools, now he's seen how much better they are.

That isn't what he's saying though. He's saying in effect, private schools are wrong, but hey,my daughter is at one.

He's cutting off the hand that feeds him, or should I say feeds his daughter. Either way there isn't any excuse for such hypocrisy. Not since the alternative(state schools) is offered.

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

Do you have childeren Chris? I don't and wouldn't feel in a position to comment on biara's position unless I did

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I just have. I noticed that it's all the 'have my cake and eat it' forumites that think Biara's position is justified.

Actually his position reminds me of people who keep telling us how wonderful the NHS is, and that it should remain a great British establishment, then rush off to buy private health insurance, whilst skimming on their tax returns.

It's called having a foot in both camps and is a characteristic of whimps.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Biara - Sounds like you would approve of a return to the Grammar School / Secondary Modern system of the 60s that worked so well.
It allowed social mobility - kids from poorer backgrounds could get a top class academic education.
Kids who went to the secondary modern were allowed to develop academically or vocationally dependant upon their ability and desire.

But I bet I've read you wrong ;)

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It worked so well did it Witton? Right answer this please. What happens to the children who only just fail their 11+ and are sent to secondary schools?

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

I just have. I noticed that it's all the 'have my cake and eat it' forumites that think Biara's position is justified.

Actually his position reminds me of people who keep telling us how wonderful the NHS is, and that it should remain a great British establishment, then rush off to buy private health insurance, whilst skimming on their tax returns.

It's called having a foot in both camps and is a characteristic of whimps.

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You've just had childeren or you've just commented?

I think I was the only forumite to support biara but noel did give a thoughtful response

Not sure why I'm being labelled a have my cake and eat it person. You don't know me. For all you know I might be desperate for kids and unable to have them for whatever reason

Similarly you're not in a position to call me a whimp (sic)

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

It worked so well did it Witton? Right answer this please. What happens to the children who only just fail their 11+ and are sent to secondary schools?

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Dont think us young lads ont forum have turned out so bad....ok maybe not but non of us (Me, Fleeter, Al?, Scott etc) have been to grammar school and the difference isnt that big, and they will get over it...if you are clever enough and want it you can stillget your 10 A*s

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

You've just had childeren or you've just commented?

I think I was the only forumite to support biara but noel did give a thoughtful response

Not sure why I'm being labelled a have my cake and eat it person. You don't know me. For all you know I might be desperate for kids and unable to have them for whatever reason

Similarly you're not in a position to call me a whimp (sic)

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I agree with Biara as well
If he can afford it then why not. As long as they exist then surely its a good thing to send the cleverst people there in order to give themselves a seemingly better education...however it isnt the only way to be successful.

Secondary schools and colleges are bringing themselves down with mixed-ability classes in order to not put down students. BIG MISTAKE.

In my GCSE German, 9 of us were predicted A's but becasue our teacher had to teach to a C standar only two of us ended up passing with a B

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Either way there isn't any excuse for such hypocrisy.

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Take an example CL, where someone believes that the state should intervene to close down public schools, since they think this would benefit the overall education system.

But, since the government doesn't close public schools, that person would be perfectly justified in sending their kids to a public school, since they currently offer better schooling in certain areas.

I'd love to sometimes discuss your life-choices CL. Most people take decisions based on a range of reasons. This often opens them up to the unjust criticism of being a hypocrit (or a wimp !?).

You just see things too black and white CL (although I'm sure 99.9% of the time it's just to get a rise out of folk as surely no-one is really so naive and judgemental?) ... life isn't that simple nor are the decisions that people have to make. Yes, you can argue that someone who's against private schools but sends their kids to one is a hypocrite, but, if the state school on offer is no good, why should the child suffer for their parents' beliefs? Sometimes morals and principles have to be compromised and, although doing so will cause people mental anguish and weaken their stance, it certainly doesn't make them wimps or bad people. In fact knowing when to compromise your own principles for the sake of others takes wisdom, maturity and courage. If only because you have to defend your actions to blinkered individuals who adopt a holier than thou attitude.

Also I think your corrupting of the "Forum Mascots" thread which was a bit of lighthearted and good natured fun with your personal and unprovoked attack of LD, was totally out of order and not in the spirit of this forum. I've enjoyed some of my debates with you but I think you need to wind your head in a bit.